Colt 1861 Navy

M

Maggs

Inactive
Hello,
New to the forum and searching for information on a CVA Black Powder Kit that I received over the holidays.

Following the instructions in the kit, I'm simply trying to assemble and debur the action for the first time. It seems that the kit requires ALOT of filing (I'm going to need to buy a few specialty tools) in order to fit the Hammer and Spring Assembly into the Frame Assembly.

Has anyone put one of these kits together?

Any pointers are appreciated.
Thanks!

Maggs
 
Back in the day...

…Kits was all I did.

I suppose that you have already fit the thing together to test the fit of the parts.

Odd to read that it needs to be filed to get the hammer into the frame.

The hammer should have a case hardened finish on it so I would not file on that, Rather smooth up the inside of the frame.

If you are into it far enough, there is a variety of stones in small sizes that are needed for smoothing up the working surfaces inside the frame.

A set of jewelers files is helpful. It also works to wrap different grits of abrasive paper around a larger file. Be careful with this because that technique is really a compromise for those who don't have the stones. (Like me because I am too cheap.)

I never had a kit that did not cycle right out of the box. (That was in 1975-80 so things probably have changed.) What was required was final smoothing of the action and finishing of the exterior surfaces. I did 1851 Navy, 1860 Army, and 1858 Remingtons plus a parcel of single shot rifles and pistols.

You can find the stones on Amazon at from 32.00 to 40.00 by searching "gunsmithing stones."

Also do a search on the internet for "Pettifogger Colt Tuning" The first thing that comes up is two articles on smoothing up operation of a Colt single action clone. That article does two things for you.

1. It give you a complete sequence of operations to make the pistol shoot nice.
2. Reading it several times gives you a great understanding of the interaction of the internal part.

The Colt sequences is a series of two articles. I see that he has written several other articles as well and they should all be quite good.

That 1861 is a good pistol to start on since it has a round barrel and contoured barrel lug. It should finish nicely without a lot of profanity.
 
Hey Maggs,

Welcome to the forum!! Great group of people here and a flood of info to be had.

Post up a picture of the problem, you never know what someone might see that will help.

Good luck and Doc's advise is spot on.
 
Thanks Doc,

No Welcome yet, but that's ok. Thank you, for your reply.

I am attempting to fit it all together and am stopped at the first set of instructions. I took my frame, hammer & spring, and cylinder to the local gunsmith and he said that I would need to do a LOT of fitting in order to make the cylinder catch on the hammer & spring.

I just took a bunch of photos and would like to post/link them here.

Photo named DSCF0001 is of the hammer inside of the Assembly frame. At this point, only the hammer is inside of the Assembly Frame. The spring assembly is not on the hammer.

Photo named DSCF0006 shows how I am attempting to insert the hammer and spring into the Assembly Frame. I believe the spring assembly is supposed to go all the way through the Assembly Frame and engage the cylinder.

Photo named DSCF0009 shows how the hammer is not properly aligned in the Assembly frame.

It seems as if the hammer and spring assembly need to go THROUGH the frame to catch/rotate the cylinder. This is where I believe that I'll have to make FILE and fit the hammer and spring to (actually through) the Assembly Frame.

Am I missing something here?

Please chime in. I have more photos, but it seems like only three are allowed.

Maggs
 

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Maggs - welcome to the forum! I've lived in Michigan my entire life, traveled all over it, BUT, never heard of Crump until now! I did a look-up on Wikipedia - I'm sure I have been by it but never "through" it! I'm in AZ right now so won't even ask how the snow is as I'm sure you're buried. :D

Anyway . . . you have more patience than I to put one of those kits together. :) If you get hung up, don't be afraid to ask on here as there are a lot of good folks who can help you out. Doc Hoy is sort of akin to a "wizard" when it comes to some of the things he's tackled and done and a lot of others are just as knowledgeable. I hope you'll keep us posted on your progress and don't forget . . . we all love pictures! Good luck to you on your project - I'msure it will be very nice when you are finished. And welcome again! :)
 
Thanks Hawg Haggen,

the slot isn't nearly big enough to let the "hand" through. I suspect that BOTH the "hand" and the spring need to go through that slot AND the spring works against the back of the Assembly Frame and the hand works against the cylinder.

I've attached a few more photos.

The photo named DSCF0010.jpg shows the slot (or lack of slot) where the "hand" needs to come through from the Hammer and Spring assembly.
I believe that I will need to use a file and make this "large enough to allow for the hand to contact the cylinder.

The photo named DSCF00015.jpg shows how I believe that the hand needs to contact the cylinder.

The photo named DSCF0009.jpg shows how "OFF" the machining is... for the hammer to be in proper alignment for the kit to function.

Am I on the right track, before I start FILING? I bought a bunch of "needle files" at the local gun show today.

Maggs











Thanks,

Maggs
 

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Hey BedBugBilly,

Thanks. Yeah.. Crump...two bars, one gas station, one market, one John Deere Dealer.. a couple of churchs within a few miles... "God's Country". :)

Winter came early.. we've had snow for most of December... The snow was too deep to allow for good grouse hunting and caused havoc in the deer hunting woods.

It'll be a good year for working on this project. :)

Thanks,

Maggs
 
Maggs,

I think your understanding of the fit is correct.

Hawg's photo is very helpful.

In your photo the geometry of the hammer and frame appear to be correct.

You might try fitting the cylinder on the arbor, and the hammer (without the hand) together to verify the alignment. The top of the hammer comes to rest substantially above the top arch of the frame in order to keep (what I call) the "palm" of the hammer properly in contact with the cap on the nipple.

When the gunsmith talked about a "lot of fitting", he was referencing the parts fit on handguns he is accustomed to dealing with on a routine basis. That would be cartridge handguns, manufactured to exacting standards. As regards blackpowder revolvers, the precision technology is 150 years old. So what is "a lot of fitting" to a present day gunsmith is more or less common to persons who deal with BP revolvers. I think you might start with steps in the following order:

1. Put the cylinder on the arbor and verify that it spins easily. A little lube on the arbor is appropriate at this point.

2. Put the hammer (without the hand) into the frame and slide the hammer screw in place but don't tighten it.

3. With the hammer screw still loose, verify that a) the hammer moves easily and b) that the hammer comes to rest in such a way that thee palm of the hammer is even with the hole in the nipple. There may be some "scratchiness" in the movement of the hammer but this is okay. You'll clean that up later.

4. Lightly tighten the screw and verify that the hammer still moves easily.

Once these steps are complete with satisfactory results, you can start to worry about the hand. The Pettifogger articles will be helpful in understanding how the hand should engage the cylinder ratchet and what should be the position of the cylinder as the hammer is drawn back. (Indexing)

The hand should be hardened at the factory and thus it is not likely that you will have to do much filing on the hand, (Too easy to get below the hardened part of the metal.)
 
1. Put the cylinder on the arbor and verify that it spins easily. A little lube on the arbor is appropriate at this point.
Click to expand...

The cylinder spins easily!

2. Put the hammer (without the hand) into the frame and slide the hammer screw in place but don't tighten it.
Click to expand...

This hammer works great in the frame.

3. With the hammer screw still loose, verify that a) the hammer moves easily and b) that the hammer comes to rest in such a way that thee palm of the hammer is even with the hole in the nipple. There may be some "scratchiness" in the movement of the hammer but this is okay. You'll clean that up later.
Click to expand...

Got it. This seems to line up fine.

4. Lightly tighten the screw and verify that the hammer still moves easily.
Click to expand...

The hammer still seems to move easily.

Thanks for the info. Back to the Pettifogger articles. Good afternoon reading.

Maggs
 
Now the hand….

Now this is only my personal opinion…. But

I would now remove the hammer and install the hand and then put the hammer back in the frame.

Tighten the hammer screw.

Now pull the hammer back while you are applying light drag on the cylinder with your finger. Moving the hammer back toward the full cock position should make the cylinder move through perfect indexing (in battery) to a position slightly clockwise of properly indexed. This is because without the trigger installed you are moving the hammer actually further than full cock. So the hand is turning the cylinder too far, which for now is okay.

What you are checking here has nothing to do with timing. It only has to do with smooth operation of the revolver with the hand moving the cylinder.

Once this is verified, you can install the trigger, bolt and double spring.
 
The hand slot barely exists. I bought some needle files and believe that I can file the slot into the frame.

A measurement of the handslot. OR.. a measurement of the depth of the handslot would be helpful.

Here is a better pic named DFSC0002.jpg. I've circled in RED I believe that where there SHOULD be a hand slot.

Thanks for taking a look.

Maggs
 

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fitting

That part of the joy and mystique of these old time guns.
Yep you will have to do some fittting for a fit.
Remember a little filing can remove a lot of metal.
So stop and chck often, keep the tolerance tight,
they will wear in with use.
Mostly jewelers files, emery cloth and cremel work.
Welcome and enjoy the hobby.
 
I think you will find

That the slot was not machined all the way through the frame. I had seen two kits in which the slot when viewed from the front of the frame as is shown in your photo, was partially open, But never an extreme case like the one in your photo.

I did not catch that previously but it is possible that what remains of the frame where the slot should be, a sort of membrane of brass might be somewhat thin.

I am going to close to examine your photos more carefully. When I had to clean up slots in the recoil shield I used a square jeweler's file working from the bottom of the frame.

Lemme take closer look.
 
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