College student, carrying legally, has shootout with armed robber

[RsqVet]

It is more complex than that, as Big Country alluded to, not just because of the issues with campus police departments but also due to the requirements for reporting of "on campus" crime. In a rural setting where campus is surrounded by grass and trees, it's pretty clear what is campus and what is not so it's clear where you have to count the rapes, murders and robberies. In the city this is "less clear" as there is not a clear line between campus and not campus since city streets run right through campus and many mixed areas where the campus is expanding.

Due to the less well defined nature of the city campus some schools, penn among others as I recall chose to only report those crimes that happened IN a school building. This obviously give a much lower number for a place like penn though it is in there interest to do so as they do not want to scare Joan and Ward off from sending the dear old Beaver to the inner city to have mayhem befall him. A place like penn which is compeating for big dollars and big brains with other top tier schools really does have a motivation to under report and they got called on it by the Justice or Education department.

Funny thing is I am willing to bet if I had been CCW'ing and had an incident on the city streets that run through campus I likely would have been tossed out of school... just a bet but for all intents OTHER than crime reporting the streets were considered part of campus.

I was at penn from 1997-2002 so thing may have changed but the penn PD was not all that when I was there. Tons of crime on campus and very UNMOTIVATED officers. When I called on an assault I had observed between 2 food service workers, gave description and direction of travel ON FOOT, the officer could not be bothered to roll down the street and even investigate / question. Pathetic. I always viewed a city university police department as having one of the easiest jobs in city law enforcement... they do not need to solve crime in philly, just tip the cost benefit curve away from benefiting criminals to ply their trade on the campus. Always thought they should get some guys out of the NYPD street crimes unit or adopt that approach. Never saw it in my time there, just lots of feel good patrols, visiability etc but nothing progressive or aggresive like that.

Saw the info on the SWAT or ERT as I think they call it a few years ago in some alum magazine, had to laugh. The chance of them needing an ERT is pretty dang small relative to the real needs for safe streets but hey just one guys opinion and ERT play better to worried parents.

 

[teeroux]

There is a difference between a 18 Yo in the army ( under constant supervision, possibly more than while growing up ) and sub 21 on their own. There are parts of the brain that are not fully developed until mid 20s that have to do with impulse control, inhibitions and realizing there are ramifications for ones actions. For some, this portion is never fully developed.

Yeah not developed yet to defend themselves here. Ok but developed enough to kill the enemies of the US and do some of the most horrible things imaginable for the sake of you being able to make that ridiculous statement.

You can't make a blanket statement saying a group of people isn't able to make decisions that affect more than just themselves. Then say its ok that they make the same decisions while in the military supervision or not. At some point during the course of their career they will be on their own at some point or be higher in rank over others with even more responcibility well under the age of 21.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

"I am trying to figure out why it matters that the permit holder was a college student since this was not a campus incident . . . "

The college student/permit holder part matters because of how the universities and the city of Philadelphia handle Law Enforcement duties. With the way they have it set up, Philly PD has jurisdiction over everything, but UPenn PD, Drexel PD, and Temple PD run normal patrols off of university property and often outside of those areas as they are granted jurisdiction in return. Most likely it was a University officer that was first on scene.

No, this doesn't matter at all. Just because a campus cop may have gone to the scene has no bearing on reporting that the victim was a student or that he was a permit holder.

In reality, just like with the things considered to be anti-gun by us in news articles, it is just hype in order to make more of the story to sound interesting.

----

There is a difference between a 18 Yo in the army ( under constant supervision, possibly more than while growing up ) and sub 21 on their own. There are parts of the brain that are not fully developed until mid 20s that have to do with impulse control, inhibitions and realizing there are ramifications for ones actions. For some, this portion is never fully developed.

Under supervision in the military? You have got to be kidding me. There are people in the military who ARE the supervision who are 21, 20 and 19.

25 seems to be the young adult level, auto insurance companies and car rental businesses seem to agree.

Well any companies promoting cave men and talking geckos must know what they are talking about. After all, many of them want to charge more for insurance a home or business where a gun is present as well.

 

[SPEMack618]

Yeah, I was definitly 20 years old supervising a gaggle of heavily armned 17, 18, and 19 year olds.

Generallly, when we went outside the wire, my load out consisted of an M-4 carbine with a -203, a M-9 pistol, a vest full of both 40mm grenades and a couple of frags and flash bangs, four pistol magazines, 10 magazines for the M-4, a Ka-Bar, a Gerber multi-tool, and a Swiss Army Knife, not to mention I rode in a vehicle that mounted either an M-2 .50 caliber machine gun or a Mk-19 grenade launcer and an M-249.

And I'm not responsible enough to carry my Glock on campus?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

And I'm not responsible enough to carry my Glock on campus?

Don't feel bad. My neighbor got out of the air force where he flew nukes for 20 years and got a job with American Airlines a couple of years before 9/11. The airports ramped up security and on more than one occasion he has trouble getting through despite his prior military security clearance. Then they would not let him carry a gun when that because possible. The military trusted him with nukes, and the airline trusts him with a jumbo jet, but not with his Kimber.

 

[BigCountry308]

RSQVet

Penn PD has changed a lot the last few years when they got this new lady as chief. She really revamped the department. Got to tour their facilities, use their new electronic fire/no fire training program and do a ride along due to my mom working closely with the chief at Penn. Now if only Philly PD could shape up as well.

 

[SwampYankee]

After reading the article and the following one (see below), I am trying to figure out why it matters that the permit holder was a college student since this was not a campus incident and it didn't happen in college housing and he was't involved in any sort of college event. I also can't figure out why it matters that he had a permit since he was apparently still on his own property where a permit would not even be needed.

At most schools, a University will reserve the right to expel/suspend/fine you even if you commit crimes off campus. As long as you are a matriculated student they consider you bound to their rules of behavior. It is doubtful that they would expel the student in this case because it would certainly not hold up in court but University judicial systems exist and sometimes local PD's let the school handle discipline (alcohol violations) and sometimes the school and the municipality handle it in tandem (like in the case of rape). It sounds as if Temple is just blowing smoke but has no real ability to penalize this student. Colleges are full of antigun staff and administrators. It's just the typical party line.

 

[jimpeel]

Im always pro-gun, but would a bunch of 21 year old drunk college kids with pistols help in the fight for our gun rights?

I'm confused. How did a college student smoking a cigarette on his front porch turn into a drunk college kid?

Diversion and misdirection is a known anti-firearms tactic in any debate.

 

[Onward Allusion]

FrosSsT
Im always pro-gun, but would a bunch of 21 year old drunk college kids with pistols help in the fight for our gun rights?

I was working full-time and in college at 19. I graduated when I was 22 and by 23 I was Financial Controller at a manufacturer with 15MM in revenue. I got all the drugs and drink out of my system in high school. So, it really depends on the 21 YO.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

At most schools, a University will reserve the right to expel/suspend/fine you even if you commit crimes off campus. As long as you are a matriculated student they consider you bound to their rules of behavior.

Yes, but why is that relevant to a story about a possible robbery? That is an issue between the student and the school. He is going to miss some classes as well, but that isn't exactly relevant to the issue of the robbery either.

 

[Mr. James]

Don't feel bad. My neighbor got out of the air force where he flew nukes for 20 years and got a job with American Airlines a couple of years before 9/11. The airports ramped up security and on more than one occasion he has trouble getting through despite his prior military security clearance. Then they would not let him carry a gun when that because possible. The military trusted him with nukes, and the airline trusts him with a jumbo jet, but not with his Kimber.

Brilliant. This, by itself, encapsulates perfectly the infantile stupidity of the anti-gun mindset. Please note, I didn't state the infantile stupidity of anti-gunners. A lot of them are sharp, hard-working people who believe they're acting to "make the world a better place." C.S. Lewis had some choice words for these do-gooders.

Your neighbor could have done a Jack Ripper, and tried to incinerate several hundred thousand people, although I don't believe he would have succeeded. Or he could have buried that 757 with 182 passengers bound for Orlando into any juicy target he chose. Funny, he didn't.

As to drunken college students, as others have pointed out, that is a fatuous and insulting argument. We have 20-year-old squad leaders directing men in combat. So much for that. Plus, for a group of us here that largely decries anything bearing the whiff of "prior restraint," the idea that we should bar succeeding cohorts from the right - yes, right - of self defense, is jarringly incongruous.

Also, while we can speak rightly of brain development and impulse control, remember that in historical terms, this idea of adolescence extending into one's mid-twenties is a purely 20th-early 21st century phenomenon. The norm in the states was at one time for the typical twenty year old to be married and raising, or preparing to raise, a family, and working in the coal mine, textile mill, logging camp, auto factory or oil field that was closest. Yes, it's true, the "drunken frat boys" of those earlier ages did get to work on an attenuated schedule.

 

[WANT A LCR 22LR]

I have a nasty habit of saying things that are initially controversial only to have them turn out to be true. This thread is no exception.

"Under supervision in the military? You have got to be kidding me. There are people in the military who ARE the supervision who are 21, 20 and 19."

So, a 18 yo signs up and is immediately given command of others? Just how did these 19 , 20 , 21 yo get to a supervisory position? I know the answer to this, . ., and who ever is brave enough to state it here will be making my original point.


" Well any companies promoting cave men and talking geckos must know what they are talking about. "

To steal a quote from one of the Pirates of the Caribbean.

" You are the worst pirate I've ever heard of. "

" But you have heard of me. "


" Yeah, I was definitly 20 years old supervising a gaggle of heavily armned 17, 18, and 19 year olds. "

Again, the question stands, did you sign up at 20 and instantly get supervisory duties?


" And I'm not responsible enough to carry my Glock on campus? "

While you may be more qualified to carry, is every other student as qualified? Just how would we sort out what student is qualified and what student isn't? With so many other issues going on it is much more easy to just not allow something that it is to regulate who can and can not do something.

Also, while in the military, were you aloud to carry a personal weapon on and off base?

 

[youngunz4life]

I have my popcorn and soda...just waiting for the 2nd half of the show to start

 

[44 AMP]

Heard about this incident on the radio news (the all inclusive 5 min at the top of the hr), and the thing that struck me hardest was some people were complaining about how the 21yr old SHOT A 15 year old KID!

That takes the cake!

As to the campus carry thing, just further proof that despite what we expect them to be teaching, elitism is alive, well, and POWERFUL on our campuses.

As far as I'm concerned, if you meet all your state's legal requirements, you should be allowed CCW everywhere, unless the owners of private property forbid it.

Sure, any individual can snap, go rogue, amok, or whatever you want to call it, but incidences of that happening among CCW users are the lowest of all. Much lower than the general population, and I believe even lower than that of the police. Private, LEGAL CCW are not the problem!

Also, calling up the stereotype of the drunken frat boys no better than any profiling (didn't we use to call it stereotyping?) and the Libs say its a bad thing (but only where its use might catch a criminal or terrorist, apparently)

I still can't quite get over the people so upset about the 15yr old getting shot. How can they see just that, and not the fact that the 15 yr old was attampting robbery and SHOT the 21yr old, FIRST!???

 

[ripnbst]

Quote "1:30 am, approached by three teens ? I would have seen it coming and gone into the building quickly."

Did you even go to college? 3 people walking on or near a college campus at 1:30am is the norm. If you ran into a building every time people were walking toward you at night it would you forever to get anywhere.

 

[cambeul41]

" And I'm not responsible enough to carry my Glock on campus? "

While you may be more qualified to carry, is every other student as qualified? Just how would we sort out what student is qualified and what student isn't?

As a super-antiquated faculty member, I would sort them out according to the law. Do they have a licence/permit or not?

 

[bikerbill]

"There is a difference between a 18 Yo in the army ( under constant supervision, possibly more than while growing up ) and sub 21 on their own. There are parts of the brain that are not fully developed until mid 20s that have to do with impulse control, inhibitions and realizing there are ramifications for ones actions. For some, this portion is never fully developed."

When I was in the AF ('65-'69), the only time I was under supervision was in basic and when I was on the job ... any other time, I was pretty much free to do what I wanted. Incidently, I was a 22-yr-old Sgt. running a shift at Howard AFB in Panama, supervising half a dozen other airmen so, yes, youngsters are in charge of other youngsters very often in the military ... I'm a big supporter of campus carry, BTW, and agree with those who argue that if the permit-holder's state issued him/her a permit, they should be trusted to carry on campus ... take two steps off campus and you can carry, cross that line and you're a different person? ... the military argument is useful, but if you have a permit, it ought to be valid wherever you go, with the exceptions listed in state law.

 

[hermannr]

I think the drunken Frat boys are as much a myth as the guns jumping out and shooting someone.

I have found those that do not trust others are generally not trustworthy themselves...Does not matter if they are 18 or 80, frat boy, or college president.

I did not drink (at all) when I was in college. I spent my time on a 3.9 GPA not parties. (from highschool through MBA). I do drink moderatly now, and did drink moderatly before, but not at all when I was working on my degrees in College.

So, the question is: does personal responsibility count? Or are we so afraid of the minority that will cause problems, rules or no rules, that we trample on everyones freedoms?

IMHO: If you allowed carry on campus, those that wish to carry will be the least likely (by far) to cause problems...they would not want to risk that license to carry. Those that would cause problems, probably already can't because of something they have done in the past..

Jim Crow has returned...only the suppressed are of other "identifyable groups"

 

[MLeake]

hermannr, I agree, a lot of accusers seem to be what the psycological community refers to as "projecting."

 

[SPEMack618]

Oh, boy....I take a long weekend and all the fun happens.

First off, I am fully licensed by the state of Georgia to carry concealed, where it is legal, campus not being a place where concealed carry is permitted.

Actually, when I enlisted at 17, I went in as a PFC and was a squad leader all through basic, just saying.


I find the "drunken frat boy" myth a bit demeaning, not saying we don't throw some raging parties, but there is a difference between tailgating for a football game, which CCW shouldn't be allowed, versuses my day to day campus activites.