collapsible batons?

Hold it right there, Chief!!!

Concerning ASPs:

Bad idea! Bad idea!!! In most places, carrying an ASP is a felony, and it's NOT covered by a typical conceal-carry permit! Even if you ARE licensed, you still cannot carry one legally. (Check state laws; consult a lawyer; and then check state laws AGAIN!!!)

That said, we rely on the basic principle that a weapon in the hand of an untrained user is, at best, a paperweight; and at worst, a SERIOUS physical liability. Without proper training in (most would say stick-fighting, I say Iaido), the ONLY thing you are doing carrying a stick is (a) slowing down your own fist, and (b) offering your attacker a nice, shiny new ASP!

"But, Samurai," you say, "An untrained person with a gun would SURELY know how to pull the trigger!" This is quite true. BUT, believe it or not (and I know most of you won't), a club is MUCH harder to use properly and efficiently than a gun. In the order of easiest to hardest to use properly, the order is: gun, blade, club. An untrained person with a club is just asking to get beaten up!

To use a weapon properly, you need to be able to strike ONCE with the weapon with a force sufficient to instantly (or nearly instantly) stop an attack. Now, anyone who's seen TV knows that if you squeeze a trigger, cool stuff happens. An untrained gun-toting TV-watcher could (and I stress could) figure out how to shoot someone in a moment of crisis. A sharp blade will sever flesh and nerve without much force. But, training with a club involves coordinating muscle groups in your WHOLE body to gain enough power in a single swing to break bones, crush nerve clusters, in a word, DEBILITATE! This is NOT something that you can learn in a weekend!

Now, don't get me wrong. I LOVE my ASP. It's 28" (Freud was right!). It travels quite well, and I take it with me on trips to practice Iaido katas while I'm away from home. ASPs are GREAT, if, and ONLY IF you know how to use them, know where to strike, and can hit your mark with a FULL and uninterrupted swing EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Pepper Spray:

Love it! A can of Pepper Spray works like a GUN! It's reasonably easy to use: Just push the button, and try not to get in the way of the little hole! When I travel on campus, I like a good 15% Military grade OC spray, a side of ribs, and a cold beer. When an attacker approaches, spray the ribs, eat the ribs, kiss the attacker full on the mouth, and refuse to share your beer. Attacker's mouth will begin to burn, and he'll run away screaming. It's good stuff! :cool:

(Ok kids at home, don't really try that. OC spray is not really good on ribs. But it seems like it would be, doesn't it?)

No Cop will EVER give you grief about carrying non-lethal spray. Carrying an ASP on a College campus can get you into A BUNCH of trouble. Don't go off half-cocked!

S.
 
Several comments were made by an esteemed member who tells us that stick fighting requires a fancy foreign name, apparently to highlight its' serious nature as a form of self defense. I will accept that assertion as I know nothing about sticks. Perhaps someone knows a circumspect samurai (sorry about the redundancy) who can speak to this matter.

Quote: "No Cop will EVER give you grief about carrying non-lethal spray."
I do know a bit about various laws governing OC in some states, and have serious doubts about the writer's veracity in regard to how police will react to the civilian use of OC, depending on the jurisdiction.

I must wholeheartedly agree with, and suggest that the writer observe his suggestion: "Don't go off half-cocked!" This is especially apparent with the commentary:
"A can of Pepper Spray works like a GUN! It's reasonably easy to use: Just push the button, and try not to get in the way of the little hole!"

While the following commentary was amusing, the concept offered, remains.

It is surprising that a proponent of the viability of stick fighting for self defense, by well trained users, wouldn't see the same need for at least some minimal training for using sprays for SD. Simply observe the police oriented reality shows which are common on TV. Even trained policemen screw up the use of sprays.

During a period of personal foolishness, I worked in the Administrative Segregation and High Security units of a maximum security prison. These were the highest levels of hazardous prisoners in the State. OC was used rather frequently, and I have examined it's effects on prisoners, and have been "gassed" a number of times. On people like me, OC is absolutely debilitating, and rapidly so.

The bad news: I'm not a criminal, and if you use OC, you better pray that your target is as big a weenie as I am. There is an amazing number of people who are astoundingly dangerous, and absolutely immune to the effects of OC. A "GUN" it ain't.

These individuals are not rare. They are not psychotic, and not under the influence of anything except the desire to victimize/kill human beings and often, animals. Trust me on this: A normal person cannot imagine or comprehend the depravity of these people. It is not possible for a normal mind to function, even by imagination, in the manner exhibited by these criminals.

The professional grade OC was delivered from canisters like you see for bear defense, and ironically, resembled fire extinguishers. I have seen many men painted brown and wet from head to toe with OC and not have so much as blepharospasm, the uncontrollable spasmodic closing of the eyelids that "regular" people experience. One multiple murderer stood in the hall, painted brown, and wet with OC, slashing with his shiv and demanding that the security team come and take him on. They did, with a 37mm canister of CS fired from a tear gas type gun. This combination worked every time I saw it used.

I must agree with Kas on his recommendation of using a combination spray if you choose a spray for SD. OC/CS or OC/CN would seem to be superior. Personally, I have seen a few people who react minimally to CN, so my preference, and the one I carry is OC/CS. CS is unimaginably debilitating to most people. I say most, simply because I suspect that somewhere, there is a dirtbag that is immune to this, too. I don't carry spray alone, for this reason.

Depending on your circumstances, I'd suggest at least having good running shoes as a backup, because even the immune folks get extremely testy and belligerent when sprayed. Failing that, consider carrying something more definitive, and face the music, if necessary, but face it alive.

FS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The common good comes before the private good — Nazi slogan

We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society.
— Hillary Clinton

"If you want assault rifles, join the army. We have lots of them."
- General Wesley Clark (proponent of personal weapon bans.)

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA. Ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." - Heinrich Himmler
Click to expand...
 
Riiiight...

Mmmkay! FlatSquirrel seems to be a little high-strung! And, not to point it out when I've blatantly been flamed in a manner that is ENTIRELY off topic, but...

Those darned "fer'ners!" I hate 'em all, don't you? ...with their "fancy" fer'eign names... Ok, FlatSquirrel... take it easy with the hostility... This is supposed to be a peaceful forum.

There are several forms of stick-fighting martial arts. The Tais teach it, the Brazillians teach it, and the Phillippinos teach it (among many others). And, currently, I do not know the names of ANY of those styles. What I train is a japanese martial art called Iaido. It's, essentially, samurai sword fighting, and it translates over to stick fighting really well. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about a blade OR a club-type weapon. (There are some finer distinctions between Iaido and Kendo, but I honestly don't think FlatSquirrel cares... Besides, he clearly has internet access, he could always go look it up.)

Now, regarding my comments about the OC spray. Clearly, (well, apparently not so clearly, because FlatSquirrel didn't get it...) I was kidding about the ribs. FlatSquirrel, I'm serious, man! Do NOT try to eat OC spray on a side of ribs! You'll REALLY hurt yourself. I don't care how many people you've seen walk right through a drenching. Back away from the ribs, man!

My point about the "works like a gun" statement is not, in fact, that the chemicals have the same stopping power as a hunk of lead. My point was, merely, that the delivery apparatus works approximately the same way. In other words, with both a gun and a can of spray, you have a button which actuates the discharge of a dangerous substance (hot lead vs. caustic chemicals) from a nozzle which SHOULD be positioned away from you. Push the button and watch the mayhem, get it? They work the same way...

Of COURSE the spray doesn't have the same stopping power as a gun! That's why they call it NON-LETHAL!!!

Now, OF COURSE you should ALWAYS train in a weapon if you have the opportunity. My point was, if a person who has not trained in either weapons is going to choose between a club and a can of OC spray, the chances of an untrained successful use is FAR better with the OC spray. And, the reason for this is that the club requires a certain element of physical proficiency, and the OC spray is not strength-dependent.

Anything else I can answer for you?
 
Samurai, my apologies if you feel that I flamed you. Perhaps I was a bit pointed. Flaming was not my intent, but it apparently was the result to you. Usually, my intent is more transparent.

It was my impression that LSU12ga was looking for a viable self defense device, and sprays had been recommended. In that vein, I explained personal experience that seems germaine to product selection, albeit a bit long winded. Off topic? You're reaching a long way there. I clearly hit a nerve, and I apologize.

Bad advice about police never being interested in sprays? Perhaps I was wrong in questioning this, and I should have remained silent. Again, please forgive me. I am not the world's protector from bad advice, and your comment should have been allowed to stand as written. Mea culpa.

On the commentary about the power of OC, I gave you credit for being amusing, and didn't comment about the rib thing beyond that. Clearly you are striking out because I have hurt your feelings, and I apologize for that. I was clearly wrong to have questioned the veracity of your recommendation.

As to what you so amusingly refer to as "fer'ners", I am again found in want. I would never have have thought to infer that persons alternatively nationalized would be inferior in any way. Truly, I assumed that someone named Samurai and professing knowlege of the finer arts of mayhem just might be Japanese or Korean, and far be it for me to denigrate their heritage. Imagine my embarrassment! You're a gringo! How could I be so wrong? So sorry, and SO politically incorrect, to boot.

On a more serious note, you DID give me pause to think. You know, I really DON'T care, and this came as a surprise to me. I wanted to learn new techniques and information, and while there has been new and useful information here, the nuggets are rather rare. The rest, like my commentary, are simply opinion. Some have a real basis, and some are unsupported. I don't care enough to sort it out, and this revelation tells me it is time to leave the forum venue on the internet. I leave it to the true warrior samurais of nonfer'in origin. (trying to play a race card......honestly, SammyRye boy, what were you thinking?)

LSU12ga, I honestly apologize for wasting your time in this off topic post. My suggestion in the previous post was honest and intended to be helpful to you, based on personal experience. Good luck to you.

FS
 
In North Carolina and many states they are illegal for non law enforcement to have in their procession and they are considered deadly concealed weapons. Been a few people shot for carrying them by some of the more hick sherriff departments around here. Of course they won't let us have rocket fireworks in this state either. Odd laws.
 
its quite alright

FS.
its quite alright, i found both of your posts helpful.

I spoke to a police officer today and he said that batons are illeagal to carry, so that solvs that.

He suggested a taser, pepper spray, or (his personal favorite) a roll of quarters kept clenched in the fist.

thanks for everyones help!
 
Roll of quarters.. hehe. A guy I know also uses the quarters method and he's done some damage with them on one occassion. Not brave enough or confident enough in my swings to take that approach.

Firearm and/or OC spray for me.
 
A bit late.

I guess this doesn't matter as you've found out they are illegal, be here is a nifty tidbit about batons all the same.
We were recently issued them as a dismounted patrol "accessory", for when shooting just wouldn't be appropriate (detaining an IED cameraman, for example) so we decided to test them.
Someone rustled up an old SAPI ballistic vest plate. A good hard swing by a big man resulted in a plate cracked in two.
These are rated for up to 7.62 ballistic protection, BTW.

Not a subjective test as this one had already been hit, but certainly enough to make me want to stay clear of the business end of one:eek:
 
FlatSquirrel said:
These individuals are not rare. They are not psychotic, and not under the influence of anything except the desire to victimize/kill human beings and often, animals. Trust me on this: A normal person cannot imagine or comprehend the depravity of these people. It is not possible for a normal mind to function, even by imagination, in the manner exhibited by these criminals.
Click to expand...


That's quite a chilling paragraph. :(


For what it's worth, I found your post very informative, and I didn't think it was a flame or anything otherwise pointedly insulting. Everyone has the right to correct or challenge the veracity of other posts, as long as they do it without attacking or denigrating. You write in a very clear, understandable and articulate manner. That is most welcome here.


Now, about the legality of ASP batons... I am kind of surprised to read that they are so commonly illegal! I had not known that. (I still don't think I "know" it, because I have not looked into the statutes that allegedly outlaw them in various states.)

Anyone have reliable information about their legality in Florida? I thought that the Florida concealed weapon license made it legal for licensees to carry concealed a variety of non-firearm weapons, and I thought that impact weapons were included...


-azurefly
 
This is directly from the state of Florida's department of licensing website:

790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm.--

(1) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section. Each such license must bear a color photograph of the licensee. For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie, but the term does not include a machine gun as defined in s. 790.001
Click to expand...


Does an ASP baton fall under the category "billie"? I thought a billie was a club, like a policeman's baton of old. Surely a lawyer could make a case that an ASP is a modern-day "billie club," particularly since you would be hard-put to find a policeman these days carrying the old-school, wooden, lanyard-tied "billie club"...

Or do I have the definition of "billie" wrong?

-azurefly
 
A little late but better late then never.

LSU might I suggest a roll of pennys insted of quarters, they arent as big so you can get a better grip, still pack a whollop, and have a more natural fist. and that way when the roll breaks (and break it will) you lose .50 insted of $10.
you know a um....... <cough> guy told me that once;)
 
Just be aware of your local laws re: concealed weapons. I know in my state those collapsible batons are a no-no
 
how s about a hiking / walking stick --> soild redwood :D just wonding, almost need one with this bum knee
 
guardian angel jet protector

only heavy ones are effective. Heavy ones are slow in the infight. Can be taken away from you. You need a lot of skill. They are bulky....

get a knife and knifing skills, or even better than a pepper spray,
get a guardian angel jet protector

http://www.piexon.com/_html/04/0402_3guardian_angel.html#

From the website:
GUARDIAN ANGEL doesn’t use a permanent pressure container, but a pyrotechnic power drive. The power drive, which is ignited by pulling the trigger, produces the necessary pressure to accelerate the liquid agent. The JET PROTECTOR technology accelerates the agent up to 40 m/s (90mph). It is impossible for an assailant to evade this "liquid projectile". The pyrotechnic drive is reliable in every position and orientation, and in extreme weather conditions (rain/sun/snow). For this reason GUARDIAN ANGEL has a higher system reliability than any other irritant or pepper spray canister.
Click to expand...
 
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