Cocked & Locked...

Just for info, when many of those older guns (Luger, 1911) were designed, the major user of the pistol was the cavalry. A manual safety was put on what became the 1911 because the cavalry insisted it was needed so a rider could make the gun safe while controlling an unruly horse. (Against the wishes of Browning, who insisted the half-cock was the only safety necessary.)

In all probability other nations had the same problems (horses being pretty much the same the world over) so manual safeties were required in other designs. In almost all countries, the normal way to carry the pistol was in the holster with the magazine loaded and the chamber empty.

Jim
 
There are several stories about the 1911 and its development, particularly regarding the grip & thumb safeties. I have heard it both ways, that the pistol had a thumb safety and the military insisted on a grip safety as well, and the precise opposite, that the pistol had a grip safety and the military wanted a thumb safety also.

Since no one has found any records, either from the military or by Browning, its all just a matter of conjecture at this point.

HOWEVER, looking at Browning's earlier designs, and the prototype(s) for what became the 1911, I believe it likely that the military (cavalry in particular) required the thumb safety. Browning's prototype has a grip safety, but no thumb safety.

James is entirely correct, in those days, the cavalry was the prestige arm of the Army, and wielded great influence. One version I heard was that (besides controlling an unruly horse) the cavalry was very concerned about the risks of a rider trying to reholster a cocked pistol with only the grip safety. Have no proof, but seems likely to me.

Bob,
USAOC&S trained Small Arms Repairman MOS 45B20 in 1975. MY memory tells me we were taught it was the "safety lock". But, my memory has proven wrong before...

I have my old TM (shop manual) around somewhere, when I find it, I'll look it up to be certain. No doubt in my mind you were taught what you said, it might be a case of me standing on the floor, and you standing next to me, on the "deck".;)
 
HOWEVER, looking at Browning's earlier designs, and the prototype(s) for what became the 1911, I believe it likely that the military (cavalry in particular) required the thumb safety. Browning's prototype has a grip safety, but no thumb safety.
Click to expand...
Lots of pics from JMB museum here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=227641

3359002386_1651e1b429_o.jpg
 
RickB said:
Early versions of the Beretta 92, with frame-mounted safety, can be carried C&L, as can the Taurus knockoff . . . PT99, or something like that?
Click to expand...
The Taurus knockoffs are the PT92 (9mm, fixed rear sight), PT99 (9mm, adjustable rear sight), PT100 (.40S&W PT92), and PT101 (.40S&W PT99). The Taurus pistols have retained the frame-mounted non-decocking safeties rather than changing to the slide-mounted decocker/safety of the Berettas.

Speaking of Berettas, almost all of their older SAO pistols could be carried C&L, along with some DA/SA models. This includes, but is not limited to...

  • Various prewar and derivative models: the 1920, 1926, 1926-31, 1932, 1934, 318, 418 aka "Bantam", & 948
  • Series 70: 70 thru 76 and variants thereof; 100, 101, & 102. (Some of these pistols were marketed under the name "Jaguar".)
  • 80 (rare pistol, not to be confused with the unrelated 81-series)
  • Series 81: 81 thru 87 & 89 no-suffix, B-suffix, and BB-suffix pistols can be carried C&L. The 81 thru 85 F- and FS-suffix pistols have a decocker/safety; the 86 was produced in an FS version, but it retained the earlier non-decocking safety. (Some of the later 81-series pistols were marketed under the name "Cheetah".)
  • 90
  • 92 prior to "S" suffix, along with some special later versions
  • 950 BS Jetfire- but only the later American-made models. The pre-68 Italian-made 950 B Jetfire, Minx, and Minx M4 (aka "Special Minx") lack thumb safeties and rely solely on a half-cock notch.
  • 951, aka 1951 or Brigadier (not to be confused with the 92/96 Brigadier!)
  • 20, 21 Bobcat
  • 3032 Tomcat
 
Now that I think about it, I think newer Tauri do have a decocking feature? The safety is on when the lever is up, it's off when the safety is "level", and if you continue pushing it down, past the "safety off" point, the gun will decock and the lever will then spring back up to off-safe.
 
carguychris said:
Speaking of Berettas, almost all of their older SAO pistols could be carried C&L, along with some DA/SA models. This includes, but is not limited to...

Various prewar and derivative models: the 1920, 1926, 1926-31, 1932, 1934, 318, 418 aka "Bantam", & 948
Series 70: 70 thru 76 and variants thereof; 100, 101, & 102. (Some of these pistols were marketed under the name "Jaguar".)
80 (rare pistol, not to be confused with the unrelated 81-series)
Series 81: 81 thru 87 & 89 no-suffix, B-suffix, and BB-suffix pistols can be carried C&L. The 81 thru 85 F- and FS-suffix pistols have a decocker/safety; the 86 was produced in an FS version, but it retained the earlier non-decocking safety. (Some of the later 81-series pistols were marketed under the name "Cheetah".)
90
92 prior to "S" suffix, along with some special later versions
950 BS Jetfire- but only the later American-made models. The pre-68 Italian-made 950 B Jetfire, Minx, and Minx M4 (aka "Special Minx") lack thumb safeties and rely solely on a half-cock notch.
951, aka 1951 or Brigadier (not to be confused with the 92/96 Brigadier!)
20, 21 Bobcat
3032 Tomcat
Click to expand...

I have both the 950BS Minx and the 3032 Tomcat. I absolutely forgot about them when this came up. Point to you, good sir.
 
RickB said:
Now that I think about it, I think newer Tauri do have a decocking feature? The safety is on when the lever is up, it's off when the safety is "level", and if you continue pushing it down, past the "safety off" point, the gun will decock and the lever will then spring back up to off-safe.
Click to expand...
Come to think of it, you may be right. (I may be crazy...) I have little experience with newer Taurus PT-series pistols, but I do vaguely recall reading that this feature had been added at some point.

Nonetheless, as it relates to the topic at hand, the PT-series can still be counted because they can still be carried C&L.
 
Back to the early days for a moment. Yes, there are records. Both the grip safety and the thumb safety were installed in response to cavalry requirements, the grip safety first, then the side safety. Another concern of the cavalry was that if the pistol were dropped by a rider, it could go off with unpredictable results. That led to the requirement for a grip safety. But as we know, Browning cheated. The grip safety merely blocks the trigger bow, not the sear, so the gun could still go off when dropped were it not for the half cock.

JMB considered both safeties unnecessary, but then he was not a cavalryman and the Army was ready to hand him and Colt bundles of money (when U.S. dollars were worth something) so he was not going to argue too hard.

Cavalry, then and now, was considered (to quote the modern Armor motto) "The Combat Arm of Decision" and had enormous prestige and power in the military bureaucracy. And enemy cavalry was viewed with great respect. For example, the rifle magazine cutoffs were not intended to save ammunition per se but to keep the magazine in reserve in case of a sudden cavalry charge.

Jim
 
American citizen living in Guatemala City, Guatemala, Central America:

The DP-51 can be carried cocked-and-locked in full Cond 1. AND it can also be carried using its unique feature; Fast Action, a design that originated from FN's GP pistol. Which means once the hammer has been fully cocked it then can be lowered all the way down thus providing the shooter with the same long trigger pull as DA and the light pounds per pressure as SA.

The photo included below is the K5 the 1st Gen of the DP-51 and still being used by the South Korean armed forces.

10293881316_b2a4f87f90_z.jpg
 
This is carried hot . DA only, no safety. I know I don't meet the ops criteria of "Cocked & Locked"

I live in the sticks. I have no livestock or animals . My neighbor "Jan" has several sheep they raise. Wild dogs have killed some of their livestock. She went out and purchased a wheel gun. She killed one. She Called animal control after the incident. They found the internal computer chip in the dog.

Animal Control officers found the owners of the dog and awarded her 3500.00 for her lost livestock. The owners of the dog paid her 200.00. They stop paying after that and moved.

I do not know any more. When I step up out in the middle night to have a smoke. I carry heavy. I loaded my S&W with 147 grain hollow points for protection.

 
Condition one; SAO....

I was looking into buying a new 9x19mm pistol. The Taurus DA/SA models are in my budget range & I was thinking I could carry them in a condition one(cocked & locked). The 92s & 908s seem safe.
Im left handed & like the polymer designs with ambi features.
There are better pistols than the Taurus line in terms of quality but the frame mounted safety design lends itself to condition one carry.
 
1911 I carried 1 in the chamber with the hammer down safety off, never liked locked & cocked. Thats just me. Back to the old S&W Chief 38 spl. 5 shot, better then no heat at all. Be Safe out there.
 
Here are a few others:

  • Special-edition Beretta 92 pistols: 92/96 Steel I (SAO and DA/SA); Billennium (SAO); 92/96 Combat (SAO); 92/96 Stock (DA/SA; not to be confused with the basic stock pistol)
  • S&W Super 9 (SAO with slide-mounted non-decocking safety)
  • Delta A-R Top Gun
  • VKT Lahti L-35
  • Husqvarna M/40
  • MAB PA-15 and MAB PAP F1
  • Benelli B76, B77, B80, B82, and MP3S
  • Mauser 1910, 1910/14, and 1914
  • Wolf Ultramatic SV and Ultramatic LV
  • Vektor SP1 and SP1 Target
  • Llama M87
  • CZ 52
  • Zastava M57A, M70, M70AA, and M88A (new-production Tokarev variants)
  • Hi-Point CF-380, C-9, JCP-40, and JHP-45

Edit: I see carguychris hinted at the Berettas above. I also notice that this thread was bumped for no particularly good reason.
 
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