Co. LEO tactics

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As I look back over this thread, what gets me is just how little people know about MOUT operations in general, and the high body count's they provide to the friendlies.

We already know the situation: 2+ bad guys shooting up a large school.

Mission: Rescue the kids.

Enemy: 2+ well armed bad guys. Location unknown. Exact number unknown. Weapons unknown.

Terrain: School (large building)with multiple areas for egress. Enemy knows the terrain intimately, and there is evidence that the building has been booby trapped.

Troops: 80+ SWAT officers in various teams who have never worked together as a whole, and cannot use "Scorched Earth" tactics to resolve the situation.

Prognosis: Bad.

These kids planned this event, no if ands or buts about it. The knew the territory, they prepositioned explosives, and had discussed their overall strategy and tactics. The police were hamstrung because of the innocents, the explosives, and their desire for minimal casualties. On top of that, I'm willing to bet that they were all on different comm's, we know they hadn't worked with each other in large scale operations like this.

2 people, working as a team, with prior proper planning and equipment can rig up enough traps and fire zones that they could easily take on this sort of force. When we'd do MOUT scenarios in the military, we sometimes lost up to two squads when facing a single opponent inside of buildings, and we could use frag's and AT rockets against them. Add the boobytraps to the scenario, and the body count goes much, much higher.

IMO, I feel that the cops did the right thing. They could have done a dynamic entry to save the dying teacher, but without good intel, it could easily have gotten a lot more hostages killed. How long did it take for them sweep through the building for explosives? How many car's we found rigged with IED's?

Overall this situation was a nightmare that could have ended a lot worse. I feel the police did the right thing, and probably saved a few lives by not doing a dynamic entry.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
 
I was in the desert at a "long range" rifle class when we heard about Littleton, as it was happening. During a break,the LEO's were discussing what had happened, and, naturally, they were discussing what the candy a**es on the street were going to say about how law enforcement responded. From some of the responses in the press, it appears that it's business as usual. Same as it ever was....

Ankey, your sentiments are right on the money. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Bring this man a goat and a bowl of fruit!

The comments regarding Clinton are misplaced, IMO. At 41, I still have the libido of an 18 year old(sans Viagra) and am under a lot of pressure(o.k., so I'm not married to Hillary) and have had ample opportunity to misbehave, but didn't. I guess Clinton apologists think that he's special. Oh, he's special all right.

I'm glad I wasn't at Littleton. I hear enough from the "what I woulda done" monday morning quarterbacks in my classes to give me indigestion for a lifetime. Let's tread lightly on this 20/20 hindsight stuff, lest TFL becomes like all the other low quality sites.

David
 
(deleted by Dennis)
Sorry, guys, I'm outta here.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 25, 1999).]
 
Hey, hey, now..

No one here has referd to non-LEOs as anything derogatory..

Furthermore, I regularly remind LEOs that civilians take guns and gun training a lot more seriously than 95% of the officers I know.
Similarly, many "civilians" take tactics a lot more seriously..

When we have all the information, Dennis, you might be very well qualified to make a judgement, but without the info, I don;t see how any of us can even make statements about the performance, let alone intelligent, meaningful ones.

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-Essayons
 
Ouch. <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_metcalf/19990426_xcgme_the_other_.shtml">World Net Daily</a> has a scathing guest editorial on the whole incident. While harsh, it certainly has a ring of truth to me.

This situation has me finally moving on an idea I've been kicking around for some time - I'm looking into becoming a peace officer. My first meeting is tomorrow. Even though it would be a cut in pay and an increase in stress, danger, weird hours, etc., I belive I can make a difference, and that's what I'm looking for, not money or comfort. My wife is behind me - says I'd be great. Heck, she can deal with me roadracing motorcycles...
 
Long but intense commentary by Geoff Metcalf about this topic.
Jeff

WoldNetDaily Exclusive Commentary          
 
    MONDAY
APRIL 26
1999          

The other victim

In the wake of the tragedy in Littleton, Co. most of the focus has been on who, or what to blame. The parents, the teachers, the school administrators, movies, music, the Internet, and even a few intrepid types have claimed the two disturbed kids might actually be accountable for the havoc that resulted in 15 deaths, including their own.
Now that the dust has settled and bodies cooled it strikes me that the most amazing tragedy of the event was no one ... no student, no teacher, no adult, no cop, attempted to do anything resembling courageous. The media reported acts of "bravery" as getting people to hide here, there, and everywhere. Hiding may be prudent, but it is not heroic. Even the heavily armed SWAT troops with their flak jackets and kevlar helmets avoided putting themselves at risk. Why? The mere fact I have to ask the question is beyond daunting.
Were the students, teachers and cops so conditioned by politically correct programming that action became anathema to them? I guess to ask the question is to answer it.
I've had a lot of e-mail on this. One international security firm wrote: "We are getting calls, all from the older guys throughout the business, who take great exception to the Colorado cops who waited to go in. The killing obviously took a while, and the event could have ended sooner with less loss of life. It is politically correct to say 'the objective is to go home at the end of the shift.' For the rest of us, 'The objective is to go home at the end of the shift -- and be able to look at yourself in the mirror.' There is no honor in going home if you do it at the expense of others."
"You GO IN! If you take a bullet, you did it trying to save or rescue children. You don't say 'what a tragedy.' You don't come up with multiple reasons why you couldn't go in. That is the job, and you go in. ... We have real-life counter terrorism professionals living about 30 miles outside of Denver -- who can't get the cops there to listen when they are told this type of stuff is coming their way." That's from professional badge carrying, gun carrying career types. Sadly, a dying breed... guys who actually probably read 'Red Badge of Courage.'
I don't like to Monday morning quarterback what happened in Columbine High school. You and I were not there. We were not faced with the choice of sacrificing our personal safety to do something courageous. We still don't know all the details. However, we do know 15 people are dead, and despite the scope of that tragedy, fewer lives should have been lost. One report tells of a security guard who actually engaged the deadly duo but missed. There was a long period of time during the "hostage stage" that gunfire continued and young people died.
Am I suggesting someone should have put themselves at risk? Am I suggesting someone do something stupid and use deadly force? Yes I am. For some of the witnesses, to the great sadness, it was their job ... for others it was their duty.
We as a people have become so conditioned to comfort, so indoctrinated to correctness, that we are mutating from the land of the free and home of the brave, to the land of the sheep and home of cowards. Ask your oldest living relative if they would rather live on their knees or die on their feet? Then ask the same question of your children's teachers.
Books have been and will be written about the myriad contributing factors to what caused two kids to do what they did. There is a long list of suspects to blame from parents, to teachers, to cops who had been warned, to a society that in an effort to embrace diversity -- any kind of diversity -- has sanctioned perversity.
We have become so focused on our own comforts that far too many people fail to acknowledge an inherent duty we all share. De Tocqueville once observed, "America is great because America is good. When America ceases to be good it will cease to be great." It has come to pass. We are witnesses of the age in which America ceased to be great, because it ceased to be good.
From our national leadership tainted by a contemptible, lying, misogynist with the moral compass of a slug, to states that undermine parents' rights, and cherish victimhood as a role to be embraced. Schools don't teach, parents don't parent, and the body politic is shocked and amazed when bad stuff happens. There ARE consequences to actions ... and to lack of action. Fifteen people are dead because of actions which never should have been allowed to transpire. Fifteen people are dead because of lack of action by individuals who were in a position to do something and didn't.
Teddy Roosevelt once said, "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again, and who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
Survivors of the Littleton, Co. tragedy must live their lives as "cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
Hire Geoff Metcalf to speak at your organization, event, or group. For further information click here.
Geoff Metcalf is a talk-show host for KSFO in San Francisco.     
 
MORGAN: i admire your desire to become an LEO and will always hold those that do with respect.(some thing a lot of people are not tought to do now days, thank you DAD) just take a small piece of personel experince i gained while in the marines; have you ever called a police officer on a good day? have you ever seen a police officer running to a good time? have you ever seen happey people glad to see their local LEO at their door? this causes stress in the life of an officer and his family a good day at work is when no one needed you, a bad day is when some one did. it is a hard wearing stressfull job and i wish you the best....pat
 
Betcha $50 if someone set off a firecracker behind ole' Geoff, he'd dive under a table! ;)

I can just see him now, leading from the, uh,
rear, screaming "I'm your leader, wait for me!" :)

With folks like this, you won't ever get it right in their eyes.

It's curious how he invokes the Teddy speech, (I don't really recall that Teddy was the originator) I had always understood that this speech was a rebuke to the "what I woulda done crowd" that are forever up in the bleachers, NEVER down on the field.

Same as it ever was....

Ron, pardon the BTDT tone, I just had to do it!

[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited April 27, 1999).]
 
Pat, sorry for the late post.

To each his own.

Let's think for a moment with the left brain.

Geoff is a talk show host, probably schooled in an understandable amount of rabble rousing. You know, the stalling for time until the next caller is on line by inflammatory statements that get more inflammatory the longer the phones are dead, and all of the other techniques of his industry. I love to hear talk show hosts squirm and rant and rave when the phones are dead, and they ALL do it to some extent. It's so obvious, and Geoff fits the profile like a glove.

All I'm saying is this. Just because someone strikes a chord within you, and the way it is stated (in Geoff's case, imflammitory and emotional) makes sense to you, doesn't mean he's right, just exceptionally manipulative.

Pat, this is the very same technique that Rosie, et al., uses. Let's think about that for a moment. I won't go into it here, but Geoff (and Rosie, Katie Couric, et al.) uses some of the same old tired "gotcha" techniques that we were taught in high school debate class, and as seen in courts. Does Johnny Cochran ring a bell? :)

The bottom line is, if anybody has to use these extreme emotion laden techniques to manipulate(!) your feelings and what you think, then what does that say about them? What does it say about us if we buy into it? The weight of the facts can stand alone, can it not? And, as he coyly implied, he doesn't have all (or hardly any) facts of the matter at hand, but he's quick to condemn, just the same. Wow, how obvious can someone be.

If anyone cares at all, I'll go thru Geoff's rant, sentence by sentence, and reveal what technique he is using(whether he realizes it or not) and why he is using it. It's easy to spot, once you know how. The science in this sort of thing is fascinating to study.

Let me reiterate, if ANYONE is using these techniques either verbally or in writing toward us, the red caution flag should be waving in our minds,IMHO ;).

Geoff throws around the word "heroic" alot and blames many. I think I'll exercise my freedom of free thought here. I don't know about TFL readers, but my experience with folks that talk like that tend (not always) to be cowards. Maybe he's not. Pat, I have just heard people waaay toooooo often, who talk like that, and when something happens, they run for cover. I'm sure some of the LEO's that have street experience reading people can back me up on this one ;)

It appears Geoff is definitely a "bleacher guy", and what benefit is it to guys on the field like you and I to buy into what "bleacher guys" say. ;) He may touch on some accurate points here and there, but the rest is, well, cheap shots engineered to rile you up, and make him look good, and we all know it. You're smarter than that. Yes?

Would you want us to judge airplane mechanics from the rants of talk jocks like Geoff after an airliner crashes? Hmmmmm.... Well, now that's different....

Have a great weekend.






[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited April 30, 1999).]
 
David W; i agree with you but, it would not stike an emotional cord if there were no emotion to begin with. the reason it does strike a cord is that i have to agree with him.. im glad we all have an opinion, this is just mine. some times im sorry i brought the subject up sometimes not. from my training ,in embassy school usmc, when it was hot you went in and when it was not you waited.....pat
 
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