Co. LEO tactics

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In my armchair quaterback opinion, boy am I glad I was not the SWAT team in that mess!! Think about it the SWAT team had no idea (probably ) exactly what the suspects looked like. Boobytraps not sure of who the enemy is-bad bad situation to storm into blind. In my time in the military MOUT training was fun , but it was easy to make a mistake when it was clear who the bad guy was- example- totally different uniform with FEW non-combatants.

Just my $.02 worth
Later
Daren
 
AS I said earlier this afternoon, and as Dennis's post and my later one about news reports are backing up:

We really need to wait, probably quite a while, before we start critiquing the tactics of the LEOs on the scene.
 
The main thing to remember is that the people died because the bad guys killed them.
No one else is responsible for the deaths.
.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
I already posted this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here.
Tonight on NBC's dateline they had an interview with a Capt., Lt. and an officer from Littleton PD SWAT. They stated that officers were inside within minutes of arriving on scene. They didn't go into detail, but if I understood correctly, one team went in the front door and another went in somewhere in the back. The problem was that they kept running into rooms full of frightened victims. First priority was to cover their escape. This slowed the hunt for the killers considerably.
The SWAT teams outside, which many have critisized for not going in, were there to cover the escape of victims who managed to get out.
Again if I understand correctly, no more teams where sent in right away for fear that too many officers might set off booby traps or start stumbling over each other.
Remember, they had many teams from all over the surounding area. Lots of cops outside made it look like they weren't doing anything.

You can criticize if you want. But it sounds to me like they did it right.
 
the security guard at the school, a local county sherif, that fired two shots as the perps entered the school should have given the LEO all the intel they needed to make a dynamic entry and regain control within min of swat arival. something got lost and the chain of comand got a little long. when this happens the guy at the front is not allowed to use initiative , and the momentum is lost.Quick decisive action was called for and not taken. may we learn from this in gods name as this is not the first nor will it be the last..pat
 
Pat,

Please don't take this the wrong way... but:

How would you feel if you worked on a plane and it crashed later that day? Would you want a SWAT team member who watched a few news reports about the crash telling you what you did wrong?
 
I wasn’t going to even dignify this thread with a response, but what the hell.

First, I have been in Columbine high school and contrary to popular belief it is not located in a little piss ant town in Colorado. Littleton is for all practical purposes a suburb of Denver. For what it is worth, Columbine high school is a rather large complex.

I am a former LEO. After a short career in law enforcement, I went into education. I have been teaching high school for 22 years. I have also been involved with the volunteer fire service for 15 years. I am presently Chief of our municipal fire department and a Battalion Chief for our county fire department. I am intimately familiar with the Incident Command System and I have a working knowledge of emergency response plans for school shootings. About 95 per cent of what went on with the response in Littleton makes sense to me.

Like you guys, I am perplexed at the inordinate amount of time that lapsed between the initial response and the final entry. I can tell you that all of my contacts in fire, law enforcement, and emergency management tell me the disaster plan implemented in Littleton went real well. I don’t know exactly what went on at Columbine and neither do you guys. Rob is right, we need to wait in order to have an intelligent discourse. I also think Grayfox is right on target. However, Ed says it best.

Now for the rant. I have personally been Incident Commander on incidents involving multiple fatalities and multiple injuries. I have made decisions as to what resources to commit to which operations. I have also been criticized, for not acting fast enough and for making the wrong decision. I have been accused of making decisions that resulted in unnecessary property loss and I have been accused of having salvageable patients die because I made a bad call. I have been there, have you?

I really resent those posts that are accusatory and imply the responding agencies in Littleton sat on their collective chicken asses while kids died. I know better than that and so should all of you. Gentlemen, this is serious business. I will defend your right to express your views, and I am glad to see TFL members are concerned with the condition of our schools, society, and their future. However, I have to tell it the way I see it. In my experience, the average guy on the street is clueless as to what goes on in the emergency services. Furthermore, none of us are qualified to critique this incident from our keyboards.

[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited April 24, 1999).]
 
Ankeny
I respectfully found your post very disturbing. God helps us if we think we can only express our options if we are experts. Are you saying that no mistakes were made in this very sad incident? We have the right to ask. I think the LEO’s made mistakes, and I well continue to ask question and offer my option.

the average guy


[This message has been edited by Swamprat (edited April 25, 1999).]
 
Rob: your right i would not want non airmen checking my work but when the wheel falls off the flying machine and im standing there with the nut in my hand it will be safe to say i screwed up...pat
 
For what it's worth, contrary to all reports, Columbine High School is not in Littleton. It is west of Littleton in rural Jefferson County and just happens to have a Littleton mailing address.

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It should be noted that Littleton is in Arapahoe county. CHS was out of the jurisdiction of agencies in Littleton. The Denver Post, which should have known better, finally got it right on the fourth day of reporting it wrong. Meanwhile, Denver mayor Webb took advantage of the tragic situation to further his own political agenda (he's up for re-election) with his gun control ranting.

[This message has been edited by OJ (edited April 25, 1999).]
 
Swamprat:

A quote from my rant, "I will defend your right to express your views...” I respect the right of each member here to post his or her beliefs. Also, you don’t have to be an “expert” to have meaningful input. Expertise, arrogance, and head in ass disease often go hand in hand. I can assure you I don’t suffer from all of those maladies. I only mentioned my background so you might understand why I feel the way I do.

My post was prompted by all of the accusations that the incident was screwed up from the get go. I also blew my cool when I read Pat's post about LEO's "cowering behind an armored car" while kids bled to death. I guess I am just sick and tired of those folks who constantly second guess, accuse, and berate, but never seem to offer meaningful suggestions for improvement.

I never said mistakes were not made. In an operation that size I would imagine mistakes were made by the droves at every level. I know there are LEOs, EMTs, and others in Littleton who will feel responsible for kids dying and they will need counseling for years to come. Some will change careers because of what happened. Those folks don’t need to be bothered by us. What I said in my post was I have heard the response plan went real well. EMA response plans and law enforcement tactical plans are not the same thing.

As OJ points out, the school is not even in what most folks would consider "Littleton". As I recall, Columbine is way out by the golf course, just east of a little lake. I don’t think that is within the incorporated city limits of Littleton but I don't know. Does it really matter anyway? Heavens man, if people aren’t even well enough informed to know where the tragedy happened, how on earth can they make accusations of wrongdoing by those who tried to do their best in an untenable situation?

I also mentioned in my post that, “I am perplexed at the inordinate amount of time that lapsed between the initial response and the final entry”. I have to admit that my gut level feeling is that the SWAT guys should have gone in like gang busters and mowed the pukes down. However, I also know they didn’t respond in that fashion and there is a reason for it. No matter how I feel, my head tells me I am in no position to point fingers or place blame with regards to the actions taked at Columbine.

There, I have said my piece and I won’t be posting to this thread anymore. I encourage you and every other TFL member to offer your opinions and I would be disappointed if all of you didn’t continue to "question" and offer suggestions. I do apologize for my remarks about the average guy being “clueless”. I didn’t need to say that. It just seems to me that there is a huge difference between a question and an accusation and the line between the two has gotten a bit too thin.
 
I have followed this topic not only in TFL, but in other lists where firearms owners have posted their opinions about this tragic event.

To the people who suggest they would have done it different, or they would have been braver, etc., I can only offer the following.

Cop stuff like this is like competing in a IPSC, IDPA, etc. match. Don't brag about your prowess and skills until you have shot the match and the scores are posted.


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Bruce Stanton
 
There is a whole new idea presenting here. "If you have never been there you cant understand and cannot criticize."
Yhis in not entirely true and could be entirely incorrect.
If it were true how many of us could critize Bill Clinton?
I refuse to critize the LEO's mainly because I dont have the facts.I have stated that I dont like the idea of leaving the wounded behind-and I still dont-but I dont know the facts.
As far as having the right to an opinion-each of us does.When we know more facts we can decide, Right now we are posturing.


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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Perhaps it wasnt just micromanagement, which very well may have been the case, but perhaps it was also a case of tactics. While I was active duty, I was part of a first rate EST team whose primary mission was counter-terrorism ( lets face it, thats what these little miscreants really were, terrorists), so you could imagine most of our training included scenarios very similar to this one-wounded innocents and targets inside still killing. The way we handled scenarios like this, was to have a HEAVILY armed entry team, whose job was to secure ground and engage hostiles if encountered. The entry team WOULD NOT aid the wounded at that point, but would relay the location of the wounded to a second team, following the entry team, that usually had a great many medics in it. They would get the wounded out in a timely fashion while securing the rear. Having said that, however, at this time I in no way feel the SWAT teams are at fault here. They have orders they have to follow, and cant just go barging in on their own, no matter how much they wanted to (and I'm sure they wanted to) Lets face it folks, Rob's right when he said we cant armchair quarterback this operation. Hell, we dont even know when they had anything beyond a general description of the killers. When did they have positive ID : pictures of the two? Charging in and engaging any white adolecent male wearing black would have gotten even more innocent kids killed. Some might say ID'ing them would have been easy, just shoot the kids with the guns, but it rarely works like that. Too many other variables in the equation. Did SWAT do the right thing? I dont know that yet as all the information has not been collected, analyzed, and released. Did SWAT do what they could given their training and the situation at the time? I think so. For what its worth, 01paw
 
"Heavens man, if people aren't even well enough informed to know where the tragedy happened, how on earth can they make accusations of wrongdoing by those who tried to do their best in an untenable situation?"

You know, I have no idea where DESERT ONE is/was but I can tell you that area was the site of a gigantic, ill conceived, clusterf****. That statement almost sounds like the Honorable Bill Clinton's, "Most people couldn't even find Kosovo on a map, how could they have an opinion o the matter?" This is an incredibly arrogant and elitist attitude.

Yeah, I've run into the jungle with a unit5. While you need a reasonable amount of information, you don't need, nor could you ever expect to have all the information. I will fall back on my previous statement at this time regarding authority from on high.
 
I was referring to individual acts of bravery or cowardice. I have seen many comments which implied the deputy in the high school was a coward because he didn't run towards the sound of the guns, even though he did what he was trained to do.

If that deputy or those SWAT officers were tardy in entering the fray, it is because they were trained that way and part of the training is to obey orders. Without that, you have an armed rabble running around like cowboys.

Yes, you and I are free to criticize the actions of management since they establish policy and procedures the street cop operates under. If the critcism is harsh enough, that sheriff and/or those chiefs of police will be out of a job come next election or when their city councils fire them.




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Bruce Stanton
 
I wasn't there. As others have said, it is easy to criticize from the safety of my easy chair. This does not indicate that there may not have been mistakes made- I'm sure there were- but that we need more intel.

I can say, if there is a suggestion that SWAT/SRT took its time, that I am happy at the thought of careful planning before violent action is taken in a field with high numbers of friendlies.
 
Okay guys, hold on a minute... I'm the one who is normally criticizing the idea that you have to have Been there and Done That in order to have a valid opinion, that is not what some of us are saying.

The point is there are poeple here criticizing something that they have no idea about. Comeone mentioned "Desert One".. well, that was almost 20 years ago!... If someone had started passing judgement the day after the crash in the desert, it would've been BS.
I have no problem in talking about cops that screw up, but let's find out what really happened before we knee-jerk this to death. At this point there isn't anywhere near enough information to make a judgement.

O.J.-

Interesting that Littleton turns out to be in Arapahoe county. When this story broke I was on the phone with a marketing person from a firearms accessory company who told me that the county SWAT guys around Littleton used her products, but she mentioned Arapahoe County, not Jefferson.. so I thought she had been mistaken... Thanks for clearing it up.

Spectre makes a good point, one that I tried to make earlier.. what would the "The gov't is oppressive" crowd be saying if an SWAT team had charged in and shot the place up?

For that matter, what if one or two officers who arrived first could've gone in, but worried that if they had made a mistake and shot the wrong person in the confusion? What if a student made the wrong move and/or disobeyed the officers orders? That officer would be in even worse shape than the officers in NYC, yet, today it is easy to say "they should've gone in and done something."

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-Essayons
 
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