Co. LEO tactics
- Thread starter pat
- Start date
- Status
Pat - I'm starting to agree with you. At first I was applauding the police, but I didn't realize how long they waited, while people were bleeding to death. I thought SWAT was trained for high-risk situations, and it seems, at this point, that they either sat on their hands trying to formulate a plan, or were overly concerned for their own safety. Why all the bullet-resistant helmets, faceshields, tac-vests, etc., guys?
Maybe I'm cynical, maybe I don't know all of what they thought they knew at the time, but I think they should have gone in much sooner.
Maybe I'm cynical, maybe I don't know all of what they thought they knew at the time, but I think they should have gone in much sooner.
Rob Pincus
New member
My impression is that they believed there was a hostage situation inside the building. They also knew about the explosives and had good reason to believe that this was a suicide mission.
I see nothing that could have been gained and a TONS that could've been lost, if they had just stormed in without any intel at all.
I see nothing that could have been gained and a TONS that could've been lost, if they had just stormed in without any intel at all.
Well, according to the kids who were caring for the wounded teacher Sanderson, when SWAT got finally got there they threatened and forced the 2 kids who wanted to stay with Sanderson, they knew and saw Sanderson bleeding to death and he was alive when they moved the kids out. I wonder how many wounded kids died because of the delay
SWAT seems to be great at dynamic entry in the middle of the night, but.....when the finally went in, they found the shooters dead by their own hands.
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
SWAT seems to be great at dynamic entry in the middle of the night, but.....when the finally went in, they found the shooters dead by their own hands.
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
Rob Pincus
New member
Scenario:
You are attempting to secure a building you know contains three things:
Innocent Unwounded Kids.
Explosives.
At least two armed men on a rampage.
You find two kids who are completely able to make there way to safety through a secured area and out of the building. They want to stay with a wounded, perhaps mortally wounded adult.
What do you do?
I completely understand these kids being ordered to leave. In fact, I don't doubt that they were told to leave or be carried out. At that point, perhaps the SWAT guys administered aid to the dying man.. perhaps the kids were wrong and he was already dead.
The priority, I'm sure with the teacher's blessing, had to have been to get the kids to safety.
I doubt that any more kids died because of any delay than could've died because of SWAT storming in without preparation.
What would you be saying if the SWAT team had charged in there and the idiot kids blew themselves up in a room with 20 other kids. Or if SWAT had gone in and wounded/killed a hostage while trying to take out the bad guys..
I'm really starting to think that some people around here look for any excuse they can to criticize cops and/or play the victim.
It is getting old.
You are attempting to secure a building you know contains three things:
Innocent Unwounded Kids.
Explosives.
At least two armed men on a rampage.
You find two kids who are completely able to make there way to safety through a secured area and out of the building. They want to stay with a wounded, perhaps mortally wounded adult.
What do you do?
I completely understand these kids being ordered to leave. In fact, I don't doubt that they were told to leave or be carried out. At that point, perhaps the SWAT guys administered aid to the dying man.. perhaps the kids were wrong and he was already dead.
The priority, I'm sure with the teacher's blessing, had to have been to get the kids to safety.
I doubt that any more kids died because of any delay than could've died because of SWAT storming in without preparation.
What would you be saying if the SWAT team had charged in there and the idiot kids blew themselves up in a room with 20 other kids. Or if SWAT had gone in and wounded/killed a hostage while trying to take out the bad guys..
I'm really starting to think that some people around here look for any excuse they can to criticize cops and/or play the victim.
It is getting old.
Destructo6
New member
The whole time I was watching that ordeal, I was saying, "what are you guys waiting for? Go! Go! Go!" They had at least 4 SWAT/HRT teams available at the scene. While I don't advocate throwing them into an obvious meatgringer, there's no way you're going to have all, or even close to, the information you want.
Let's face reality though. A rigid command and control structure probably required a, "Go" from higher up, stifling individual initiative and the exploitation of opportunity.
Let's face reality though. A rigid command and control structure probably required a, "Go" from higher up, stifling individual initiative and the exploitation of opportunity.
Ed Brunner
New member
Im split on this one.I dont know what the circumstances really were,but I dont like the idea of leaving wounded behind.
As far as being told to leave or be carried out.If they could carry the two kids out why not the teacher?
I wont second guess the SWAT because I have no idea what their orders were.
------------------
Better days to be,
Ed
As far as being told to leave or be carried out.If they could carry the two kids out why not the teacher?
I wont second guess the SWAT because I have no idea what their orders were.
------------------
Better days to be,
Ed
Rob Pincus
New member
Priorities being what they were, what is easier, threatening two kids who can walk out on their own with being carried out, or actually devoting a team member (or two) to having to leave the area of interaction (I assume these kids were at the forward portion of the SWAT controlled area. Furthermore, One of the SWAT members could have seen a completely different situation. What the kids saw as "bleeding to death" could've been "dead and bleeding out"....
I hate to even come off defending what happended at this point, I don't really see how we can have a resposnsible discourse on this topic. None of us have *any idea* what the chain cof command was, what the orers were, what the situation was, etc, etc. If there are some SWAT team members here that might want to give a professional opinion or if someone here was actually in Columbine High, then let's hear it.. otherwise the last thing we should do, IMHO, is second guess the LEOs on the scene.
Sounds to me like they definitely saved those two kids. I say "Good Work.". If they'd've been home on their couches watching TV or sitting at some desk like most of us were, then maybe those two kids wouldn't have made it.
------------------
-Essayons
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 23, 1999).]
I hate to even come off defending what happended at this point, I don't really see how we can have a resposnsible discourse on this topic. None of us have *any idea* what the chain cof command was, what the orers were, what the situation was, etc, etc. If there are some SWAT team members here that might want to give a professional opinion or if someone here was actually in Columbine High, then let's hear it.. otherwise the last thing we should do, IMHO, is second guess the LEOs on the scene.
Sounds to me like they definitely saved those two kids. I say "Good Work.". If they'd've been home on their couches watching TV or sitting at some desk like most of us were, then maybe those two kids wouldn't have made it.
------------------
-Essayons
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 23, 1999).]
In the end, 80 LEO waited outside listening to gunshots. At least one person was bleeding out, and others were being shot. If there was ever a time to charge in, this was it.
This sounds like CYA run amok.........
This situation is just more proof that you cannot trust someone else (or 80 LEO for that matter) with your own safety!
This sounds like CYA run amok.........
This situation is just more proof that you cannot trust someone else (or 80 LEO for that matter) with your own safety!
Rob Pincus
New member
SO, Gino, IF they had charged in, and another 20 kids were killed in a bomb blast that it could be argued was caused by the killers setting of a bomb to kill themselves and the hostages, what would you say then?
"I think they did the right thing."
or
"Another example of gung-ho Cops who shouldn't get military training.. why didn't they try to negotiate or at least learn the situation before they went in?!"
This is yet another no win situation for LE.
"I think they did the right thing."
or
"Another example of gung-ho Cops who shouldn't get military training.. why didn't they try to negotiate or at least learn the situation before they went in?!"
This is yet another no win situation for LE.
Rob, I agree it was kind of a no-win situation, but I stand by my admittedly uninformed opinion that they stood by too long, while kids were still being shot and bleeding to death inside.
I'm trying to pull a few strings to get some inside information. If I succeed, and if my friends are willing, I'll share it here.
I'm trying to pull a few strings to get some inside information. If I succeed, and if my friends are willing, I'll share it here.
There never is a win-win sit for leos... I think they did right as well. Going in earlier could have got innocent kids killed by the officers - or as Rob pointed out - but a bomb...
The Teams had to wait... I am sure hearing each shot was painful to the officers whos instincts were screaming "RUN IN".
Glad I wasn't there...
------------------
SICK AND TIRED OF...
The Teams had to wait... I am sure hearing each shot was painful to the officers whos instincts were screaming "RUN IN".
Glad I wasn't there...
------------------
SICK AND TIRED OF...
Rob Pincus
New member
According to a Fox News Report moments ago, the Jeff. County Sheriff's Office just released a timeline of events on the day of the shooting. Apparently, at least one officer did go into the building and did exchange gunfire with the suspects, approximately 20 mins into the cricis.
It is then that they saw bodies and bomb damage and thought they might better re-think the go in and get 'em strategy.
It is then that they saw bodies and bomb damage and thought they might better re-think the go in and get 'em strategy.
Again, it was a no win either way IMO. Sometimes I think it is easy to armchair these situations behind a TV or Keyboard. I for one have had a hard time weeding through the mangled media accounts even 3 days later. I can't imagine what it must be like on the scene. I for one hope there were no more involved in carrying this out , as so far the courts system has spent no money on prosecutions.
------------------
------------------
It definitely was a no-win situation for all concerned - especially those who needed and did not received timely medical care.
(Rant mode: ON)
IF I understand correctly that the police waited four hours, then somebody blew it. They didn't even try to secure areas of the school that were NOT under attack????? We have CONSTABLES who would have taken better action than confining the terroris to a school full of kids! So, who is my target today?
- NOT the SWAT teams. I just can't believe the guys who do the hard job waited on their own. Their training, their espirit de corps, etc. would have them charging in to secure the safe areas (at a minimum) as soon as they could get organized.
- To say that SWAT going in would have caused the perps to blow up the place is a non sequiter. Waiting could have given the perps more time to find, torture, maim, and kill more victims, set more bombs, etc. - it works either way.
- Surely the police supervisors never said, "Let's wait and let whoever it is kill as many kids as it takes and we'll stay here where it's safe, secure the parking lot, and hope he kills himself." - too stupid and insulting even to contemplate.
- My money is on the politicos! I'll just bet the political leaders (equivalent to Commissioner, City Council, Mayor - whoever rules the roost in that burg) has absolutely no concept of such situations, no idea what tactics and training work best, was afraid to trust his SWAT people, and they just froze - wasting time making "committee decisions", engaging in heated theoretic debate, and butt-covering bluster, while kids were being killed and salvagable patients died.
(rant mode: HYPER-RANT
I will just bet it was another case of "micromanagement" of the guys in the trenches by the guys in the suits! Littleton, Colorado is a small town. I'll bet some of the SWAT members had relatives in that school! No way they willingly would sit on their hands!
-----
To me, it sounds like:
- Carter and cronies trying to rescue the Teheran hostages, or
- the brilliant team of Clinton and Albright (gag) explaining to the "dumb generals" how to fight a war.
(rant modes: exhausted
It's a hell of a note when high school kids come off looking better than the people who "save" them. Surely there's more to the story that what we have heard - both ON and OFF the scene.
(((grumble, grumble. Where's the Tums? Honey, do we have any beer?)))
(Rant mode: ON)
IF I understand correctly that the police waited four hours, then somebody blew it. They didn't even try to secure areas of the school that were NOT under attack????? We have CONSTABLES who would have taken better action than confining the terroris to a school full of kids! So, who is my target today?
- NOT the SWAT teams. I just can't believe the guys who do the hard job waited on their own. Their training, their espirit de corps, etc. would have them charging in to secure the safe areas (at a minimum) as soon as they could get organized.
- To say that SWAT going in would have caused the perps to blow up the place is a non sequiter. Waiting could have given the perps more time to find, torture, maim, and kill more victims, set more bombs, etc. - it works either way.
- Surely the police supervisors never said, "Let's wait and let whoever it is kill as many kids as it takes and we'll stay here where it's safe, secure the parking lot, and hope he kills himself." - too stupid and insulting even to contemplate.
- My money is on the politicos! I'll just bet the political leaders (equivalent to Commissioner, City Council, Mayor - whoever rules the roost in that burg) has absolutely no concept of such situations, no idea what tactics and training work best, was afraid to trust his SWAT people, and they just froze - wasting time making "committee decisions", engaging in heated theoretic debate, and butt-covering bluster, while kids were being killed and salvagable patients died.
(rant mode: HYPER-RANT
I will just bet it was another case of "micromanagement" of the guys in the trenches by the guys in the suits! Littleton, Colorado is a small town. I'll bet some of the SWAT members had relatives in that school! No way they willingly would sit on their hands!
-----
To me, it sounds like:
- Carter and cronies trying to rescue the Teheran hostages, or
- the brilliant team of Clinton and Albright (gag) explaining to the "dumb generals" how to fight a war.
(rant modes: exhausted
It's a hell of a note when high school kids come off looking better than the people who "save" them. Surely there's more to the story that what we have heard - both ON and OFF the scene.
(((grumble, grumble. Where's the Tums? Honey, do we have any beer?)))
We all are PO'd and appalled and frustrated.
We don't know what happened and probably won't as GLV said. No matter how it looks to us I have to agree with Dennis in that there is no way the SWAT guys wanted to wait, no way those men could hear the screams, knowing what was happening and not be crawling out of their skins to get those demented punks.
A few glasses of Merlot has helped calm me down, ya'll should try your beverage choice
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
We don't know what happened and probably won't as GLV said. No matter how it looks to us I have to agree with Dennis in that there is no way the SWAT guys wanted to wait, no way those men could hear the screams, knowing what was happening and not be crawling out of their skins to get those demented punks.
A few glasses of Merlot has helped calm me down, ya'll should try your beverage choice
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
Rob and group, I hesitated to post my anti-police tactics opinion earlier today. Actually I rewrote it several times. I hate to second guess LEOs. I'm definitely not a cop basher. It just seems like they dropped the ball on this one. Badly. These were two untrained kids against 80+ LEO. Is that the best that law enforcement could do? I don't think so. There is enough smoke here to start yelling fire. Whether it was bad tactics or bad leadership is for them to decide.
All right. Just listened to a Capt. from one of the SWAT teams. They were inside the building within 50-60 minutes of the first shot!
They could not clear and secure large areas of the school because they had to find hiding students and teachers and provide security for their escape.
BTW, the Capt's son was in the school at the time.
Good one for the good guys.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 23, 1999).]
They could not clear and secure large areas of the school because they had to find hiding students and teachers and provide security for their escape.
BTW, the Capt's son was in the school at the time.
Good one for the good guys.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 23, 1999).]
- Status