Chuck Taylor on Competition.

To be honest I would rather have someone who has actually been a LEO teach LEO's.
Same for the military.
Only a peer can apply the basics to what the job entails.
I do not believe that someone who has only competition experience/training should be teaching those who go in harms way.
Just IMHO, which you keep asking for.
Now you have it.
 
Only thing that puzzles me guys is why the DEA, FBI, SS, SEALS, Marines, SF, etc.. actually have such as Letham teach classes and they learn from what the 'games' people show them. Why they might get killed learning all that stuff!

I'm not saying Leatham didn't teach at Quantico, but the only guys I have ever seen teaching FBI and DEA at Quantico were Chuck Taylor and Mas Ayoob.
 
IMHO it all comes back to the "Basics" and "Fundamentals", be it shooting, bullriding or mathematics.

Building a strong foundation of the basics is what is important, IMHO. The other stuff is just "fluff". I'm not going to argue about "fluff". :)

Biker
 
Fair enough, but all things being equal and cost not being an issue, wouldn't you want to have the best of the best training our nation's cops on the fundamentals?
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Sadly, all things are not equal and cost is an issue, otherwise I'd like to see all of our LEOs go through something like Thunder Ranch, DTI, FAS, LFI, or Gunsite, etc. Of course I'd like to see them go through something like the Bondourant Driving School, have a 4-year degree in English with a minor in Communication Skills, have a black belt in at least on e martial art, and so on!:D
 
Matt,

A question. I've never seen a real Bio of Applegate. Was he ever in battle himself? I've never seen anything in print but I honestly wonder if he was.
 
He was not in any WW2 combat, except as an observer on a few British Commando raids.
He was also in Korea for awhile, but I never asked him about his combat experience there--or if he ever had any.
He did have a few gunfights during his stint in Mexico ( he once showed me a gun at his home and said, "I could put a few notches on that one")
but I never asked him about the specifics.
 
Matt,

Was any of his gunfights before WW2, when he got involved with the OSS? When was he made an officer in the U.S. Army? Was it a direct commision? Was it before the war?

I've never seen any biograph of him, and at least from what I've seen on the net, everything written about him starts at WW2. What was he before the war?
 
Deaf...the answers to all your questions can be found here.
http://www.amazon.com/Close-Combat-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225767327&sr=1-1
No..none of his gunfights were before the war.
I believe he was a Lt. in the National Guard when summoned to Washington D.C. to meet "wild" Bill Donavan--which leads one to wonder how a young man with no background came to the attention of the head of the O.S.S.
Seems as if there is more to this story than meets the eye.
 
"I do not believe that someone who has only competition experience/training should be teaching those who go in harms way."

AMEN!
 
Well, having trained and taught with both Jimmy when he was alive, and still active with Taylor on a bi-yearly basis, I believe I have some comments that folks might find credible. (Then again, this is an Internet forum).

Anyway, it is my belief that Jimmy believed that competition was best used as stress innoculation therapy. Shooting under stress helps the shooter control his emotions, and thus keep clear-headed under fire.

I believe Taylor's feelings are more along the line that today's shooting games do not instill the correct mindset necessary for winning gunfights. I believe Taylor would say that much in the discipline is way overthought, and it is the primary skills that will win the day, along with the mindset to engage immediately and decisively.
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Marty...good post.

I see nothing wrong with learning marksmanship skills from those in competition however I do not believe that they should be teaching tactics because IMHO they miss the settle but important techniques that go along with knowing when to engage immediately or when to wait for the opportunity to engage which is part of having the mindset to win the day.

Deaf,
Leave it to you to distort the facts in any debate. I was taught the same techniques from my grandfather who was at Pearl, Midway, Tulagi, Guadalcanal, Makin Island, and campaigns in Eastern New Guinea and New Britain before malaria about killed him. This no non-sense type of training instilled a mind and skill set that save my bacon in Iraq. Lets also not forget that in addition to learning from Applegate in person Matt was also taught WWII combatives and shooting techniques by his father who was a Ranger in WWII.
 
He was not in any WW2 combat, except as an observer on a few British Commando raids.

Royal Marine Commandos as an "Observer" Col. Applegate would have been armed, given the opportunity I am sure he would have used any weapon he would have been armed with.

Non combatants would have been no use whatsoever on a Commando raid, typically small unit endeavors, he might not have been issued a knife, just camo cream and a wool cap.

As an aside, the return to Civvy life after the anything goes life of Commando service produced good Cops! and sometimes pretty good crooks!
 
Who to teach?

along with the mindset to engage immediately and decisively
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Marty Hayes said the above, I have just stripped that wee bit out of an excellent post. engage immediately and decisively trimming down even more, I endeavored to teach that for 25 years.

And the Jury is still out in my mind, that it can be taught? Seems to me you have it, or you don't! In fine tuning the mechanical ability's, and very good instructors can do that, with the student dressed and armed how they walk out of their homes each day.

Uniformed/Jacket and tie/Florida Shirt, LEO or legal pistol carrying individual heading out on a day that your training will have them returning back home safe and sound at the end of that day.

And even a good Instructor can only point-direct a person, there is no magic taught in an hour formula. And here is where the top sports shooters shine!
They can teach the correct basics! Sorry everybody... the dry fire from all duty dress, all business dress, all old guy sport shirt dress, the trimming of time consuming movements, the very basic first and final grip (DEATH GRIP!) on that Glock 19? sorry could not help touting my most favorite pistol in the world! They can point you at the "how too!" it is up to your street smarts, your learned on the job (whatever it is) street smarts, as to "the when!"

The student has to work! No pain no gain. Dry fire is the way to fine tune the presentation of a pistol, you have to do it. It costs nothing, and is worth it's weight in gold.
 
Chuck Taylor is right on the money with this. I agree with him 100%. That being said, competition does have value so long as you do not engrain bad habits. Cirillo talks alot about this in his book, ...Tales of a Modern Day Gunfighter. Although a fan of competition, he decried some of the stupid crap that takes place in competitions that do nothing but mentally program people to do equally stupid crap in a real gunfight.
 
Deaf,
Leave it to you to distort the facts in any debate. I was taught the same techniques from my grandfather who was at Pearl, Midway, Tulagi, Guadalcanal, Makin Island, and campaigns in Eastern New Guinea and New Britain before malaria about killed him. This no non-sense type of training instilled a mind and skill set that save my bacon in Iraq. Lets also not forget that in addition to learning from Applegate in person Matt was also taught WWII combatives and shooting techniques by his father who was a Ranger in WWII.
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What's distorted 7677?

Applegate, I really suspect, was never in combat before WW2. That is not a disparaging remark about him if it's true. I have no doubt in the National Guard he was very vocal on how he felt about training and had studied such as Fairbrain and Sykes. Donovan, of the OSS, had his name passed to him and he liked what he saw. Considering the stringent time limit imposed Applegate's methods were the best around. There was no time for formal long time marksmanship nor ring time for H2H. I honesly feel Fairbrain and Applegate had the best system for the situations handed to them.

Now the reason I brought up Applegates combat experience was to point to Matt that the one teaching the methods to recuits basicly had no combat experience. Yes they had learned from those who did have such experence, but themselves they had none.

The military today, and police, do bring in top 'game' shooters now and then. They keep an open mind and use their experience to 'pick what is usefull', to paraphrase Bruce Lee, and 'discard what is useless' from what the top shooters show as for technique and teaching methods.

And I'm all for that.
 
I still submit that someone with only competition experience, who learned from those with only competition experience is not a good combination for those who go in harms way.
Now the police & military may very well have these gamers in, but hopefully they can then decide what--if anything--can be incorporated from these sportsmen.
I fully agree that combat experience is not necessary to be a good instructor --as did Applegate-- but I worry about someone without such experience who either modifies--or just plain makes up--techniques based solely on the fact that it wins in competition.
It seems that the only people who dismiss or poo-pah combat experience is those who have none.
And this, IMHO, is what Taylor was trying to convey in his article.
 
Deaf,
I appreciate your reply and you actually taking a stance this issue. I do not like to paint with a broad bush and use absolutes because there are those that shoot competition and understand there is a difference between combat and competition shooting. There are those that can teach both but if you look into their background they usually have a strong background with both types of shooting. Let us never forget that every shooting is different and is based on it own unique set of circumstances so there are no one size fits all solution.

I personally do not have any problem with competition shooters teaching the fundamentals such as marksmanship skills however I they should not be teaching tactics based on competition stages.

In Applegate's case, he was taught by those which had experience and the curriculum was constantly revised by those that went into harms way and gained experience first hand. Applegate incorporated the experience he did not personally have into his curriculum by those who had it. And, the thing that is often not addressed is the mental preparation (mindset) that was given to these soldier in the House of Horrors and with other types of training.
 
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I fully agree that combat experience is not necessary to be a good instructor --as did Applegate-- but I worry about someone without such experience who either modifies--or just plain makes up--techniques based solely on the fact that it wins in competition.
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I would offer the challenge that you wouldn't see this happen, uh, anywhere. The top pros that do teach SWAT/cops/military are guys like Robbie Leatham, Todd Jarrett and Jerry Miculek, who leave the tactics to the swat guys. They're just there to teach said cops to shoot faster and with more accuracy than they ever did before, not how to properly secure a room full of hostiles.

Besides, there are just as many instructors who did a tour as a REMF and are now teaching their own, equally silly "combat proven" system; these guys are just, if not more dangerous than any pro shooter teaching, because the REMF guys are going to "fake it 'till you make it", and possibly get someone killed.
 
In Applegate's case, he was taught by those which had experience and the curriculum was constantly revised by those that went into harms way and gained experience first hand. Applegate incorporated the experience he did not personally have into his curriculum by those who had it. And, the thing that is often not addressed is the mental preparation (mindset) that was given to these soldier in the House of Horrors and with other types of training.
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7677,

And Jeff Cooper, who WAS combat experienced, and who did study Applegate and Fairbrain, did get feedback from students who survived shootings (as does Tom Givens.) Something to think about.

Oh, and 7677, I've been under three grand masters, all Korean, two ex-military. One, my present one for 15 years, is an ex-ROK who was in Vietnam, in combat, and even once, when his unit was overran guarding a bridge, used a RTO handset to beat one of the NVA to death when they overran his position. He also had two people try to rob him, one with a knife. He overcame them and held one of them for the police.

Just Saturday he had us doing elevator defense. That is, defending yourself in a crowed elevator. Definatly no kicking. It was pretty interesting. Now that's the TKD I study.
 
For what it's worth, I attended the same Todd Jarrett course as NRAhab did recently. One of the first things that Todd said to the class on Day One was something to the effect of "I've never been a soldier, and I've never been a cop. All I know how to do is shoot a pistol, and that's what I'm going to try to teach you all over the next three days. Tactics are something else entirely."

One reason that the topic of this thread is such a hot-button issue with me is that over the years, I can't count how many times I've been standing around the gun store or shooting club with friends when Marty Mallninja walks up...

Joe Blow: "Hey, Marty! We were just going to go shoot some steel; falling plates for a dollar a rack. Wanna come?"

Marty Mallninja: "No way! That stupid competition stuff just blunts your skills! Sensei Klikklikbhang says so."

Joe Blow: "Uh, we're not going to be blunting any skills, just shooting some falling plates for fun and side bets."

It's doubly funny when Joe is not only a solid club-level IPSC shooter, former NCO in the 75th Regiment, and multiple Thunder Ranch and Gunsite attendee, and you know for a fact that Marty can't hit a barn from the inside with the door closed 'cause you've seen him blazing away on the range without much danger to his B-27. But competition would "blunt his skills".
 
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