Chuck Taylor on Competition.

Guess I am just totally out to lunch on this. I believe competition is what humans do to hone the edge of the weapon.

In the time of the great tournaments, (in between great wars) combatants from different city states conducted mock battles (actually fairly real) for the joy and adoration of the crowds, the weight of another’s armor (if you won) and to test the edge of your sword against another’s shield. This was stylized war, but it reinforced the basic skills.

The great age of archers, constantly tested in battle and on the lists, used competition to keep the skills of alignment and release sharp and focused. A jingle of the purse, stills the blood and focuses the eye. Again nowhere close to volley fire at a forward moving enemy, whom wished to shred you if they could close, but it did reinforce the foundation skills.

The age of firearms has seem it’s share of martial competition not only to establish the best, but to keep the edge.

I my years as a peace officer I can not remember a firearms qualification either PPC or practical that did not have bragging rights as part of the qualification score. Competition kept those courses from becoming mental masturbation exercises. Not street combat, but reinforced the needed basic skills.

I have been both a street shooter and a competition shooter and for me the basic skills that I honed on the square range helped me on the street.

Scattergun Bob says;
“Once the combat envelope wraps its' cold clammy arms around you, there is more than enough to think about besides how your weapon works, what condition of readiness IT IS IN, or where it shoots.”
 
I have been both a street shooter and a competition shooter and for me the basic skills that I honed on the square range helped me on the street.
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Same here, but again I don't think that is what is in dispute. Certainly competition helps with some skills that can be used on the street, particularly basic skills. But competition also incorporates the learning of skills that can be detrimental to the street even though they help you win a game.
 
Good points Bob,

Basic shooting competition, such as PPC and/or practical, is just that, basic. It helps develop some techniques and habits that are almost universal - balanced stance, sight usage, firing for accuracy, firing at speed, shooting weak-hand, reloading, use of cover, some different basic positions, shooting at multiple targets, shooting on the move.

What few of them do is teach flexibility, problem solving or special tactics in unusal situations.

But the basic shooting skills are necessary in every form of either competition or combat. Keeping those skills sharp will save your bacon.

My instructor, during the days of PPC qualifiers, was a former FBI agent. He was teamed with a partner once who was one of the best shots in the agency. One afternoon they went to the range to brush up and he was impressed. His partner put 6/6 right in the x-ring at 25 yards with a 2.5" Model 19 in about 5 seconds. But it took him 18 seconds to reload! :eek: He confessed to Vic that one of the reasons he was such a good shot was that he was lousy at reloading. He was also a southpaw which complicated matters somewhat. After a few months of practice and Vic's tutelage, he was able to reload in 7 seconds (from belt loops - there were no speed loaders then).

If you don't have the basic skills down, you need to work to improve them. And in the basic skills category, I include point-shooting along with weak-hand and shooting on the move.

When the elephant looms large, your reactions should be instant and automatic so that your brain is solving THE problem of the moment. That problem might be as simple as remembering where the nearest cover is. Or it could be a complex 3D moving approximation of how much to lead your moving target as he tries to run to you, or away, in an uneven "S" curve. But your reflexes have brought the gun up to bear properly, disengaged any safety and your finger has eased onto the trigger without conscious thought.
 
Dave

I do not disagree with you, learning bad habits in IPSC or IDPA can and will cost you on the street. As usual Dave I was not very clear in my first post. I am saying that competition and winning is part of training as well as the games. My most valuable trophies are a belt buckle from NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor School for top shooter, a DVC belt buckle and the little Bronze cup for the most improved at POST, these were very real fields of competition every bit as serious for me as the US revolver championships.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
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The meaning isn't clear, and your version of it can certainly be valid, but the "ego driven" phrasing seems to me to be referring to that "let's use the game technique to win even though that technique could get you killed in an actual gunfight" mentality.
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My 'ego' isn't driving the phrasing of my questions, Taylors statement is.

...Competition shooting allows the participant to examine the course of fire, determine how best to deal with it and even practice it in advance until he feels he has reached an acceptable efficiency level.....In combat the opposite is true, which is why for well over 100 years, competition shooting techniques have always failed to save lives when applied to life and death situations.
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For well over a hundred years 'competition shooting techniques' have always failed when applied to life or death situations?

Exactly which 'techniques' failed and why? I would agree with you that it is ambiguous, except for the 'always failed' qualifier. How could anyone possibly even know that with any sort of reasonable certainty? Sounds like overblown BS delivered while trying to make a point, probably that his 'real' life combat instruction is superior to everybody else's, but I'll reserve judgment till more facts are available.
 
The Positives

IDPA is a sport, with realistic guns, the positives from that sport are, lots of concealed draws, with a gun you carry (me) Milli second recognition of a not so good hit (from the trigger release, not from the visual hit) and the adding of an other shot. Trigger control is the most important part of sport/bullseye shooting, it is also kinda important when trying to punch someones ticket who has got his stolen gun out his clothing, pointed it at you, but it did not fire! not the time to loose that trigger control the firing of a few thousand rounds a year, in somewhat simulated stress has given you.

Having sport shooters, really good ones, teaching LEOs has some down sides, one, in my opinion, is the new shooting grip, weak hand thumb extended forward, onto the frame (more skin on gun, better control) try it on a Magnum Revolver! the gases from the cylinder burn! if some one gets his paws on your pistol? that hold is not as secure in holding on to your weapon. The old thumb turned down strong hand and other paw wrapped tight around that primary hand is a "try to yank this away from me" winner in a knock down drag and bite contest.

In monitoring a class taught by two brothers, sport shooters, to promote a pop up and down plate machine (good piece of kit) at an ATC, I had to step in and stop the comment "that shot is no good!" called on a young Police Officer, this was a two inch below the 8" head plate shot, a hit on the support bar, "Hold it!" said I, "this is a ten yard shot, because of splash back risks, even with your nice wrap around Oakley's" " confrontation with your friendly drug dealer in the parking lot of the after hours Club, that hit would have took out his Adams apple, and spine, a good thing!"

The shot missed a plate, yes, but not a bad shot in real terms. So trigger control, trigger control, trigger control. I was thanked later by the vendor, he had his eyes opened a bit, slowing down too much to get that hit, well that might not be a good thing sometimes.
 
Yes, Deaf..Cirillo used his front sight to win his first stakeout gunfight.
Why not, since he had the time, distance and the cover to do so.
Why do so many see this as an either or thing?
Cirillo was a firm believer in BOTH point and aimed fire, as he states here in his last book..
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313871
Cirillo was a beat cop first who had one shooting before going to the stakeout squad.
And yes, he sang the praises of competition--even though he once angered Farnam by not "playing by the rules"
when going through John's new Dueletron.
Of course Jimmy also felt that big game hunting was important for a warrior--something that may or may not be true as well.
Lastly, what the squad did was not typical police gun fighting but more akin to ambushing.
Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but the tactics for the proactive may not always work for the reactive.
Hey Deaf, how come you never mention that Cirillo--in fact no one else but Chapman--was ever able to duplicate in competition what he had done for real that day in the bodega?
Funny, no?
 
Hey Deaf, how come you never mention that Cirillo--in fact no one else but Chapman--was ever able to duplicate in competition what he had done for real that day in the bodega?
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Actually what Cirillo said was he never has been able to duplicate the speed he did to shoot those three. Nothing about competition was mentioned. Of course he didn't play by the rules (I think he went behind the targets to supprise them.) Notice he did that just one time....

And yes he sang the praise of competition, hunting, family life, reloading/gun tinkering, and other things he felt made you more competitent and mature. He didnt' believe it? Hmmm. You must have a real good ouija board Matt.

Sure he shot faster. When you are jacked up with adrenalin it's very common to go faster than you have ever gone. You didn't know that? With all that FOF you do that has never been discovered Matt?

We see that all the time in martial arts sparring compeitition. People doing things faster then they ever did in practice (and even doing things they never even did in practice!) Even in IDPA I've made speed head shots at 20 yards that I would have thought with impossible times and have never been able to do it on a range.

You need more FOF Matt or something.
 
I don't need more FOF Deaf.
I have been involved in dozens of armed and unarmed encounters ( mainly unarmed) throughout 20 years as an on duty court officer, off duty CO and 10 years moonlighting second security jobs during NYC's bad old, pre -Gualini days.( 1979-1989)
The fact that I never had to fire a shot in anger--but I came very close more times than I care to admit--is due to the necessary mental/awareness attitude that my old man drummed into me.
Something which is sorely lacking in any sporting event.
In other words, I was never taken by surprise
To be frank I found martial arts competition making me do dumb things when actually fighting/controlling bad guys for real, which is why I gave up classical ju jitsu/karate soon after coming on the job.
Sounds as if it is you who needs some real world experience on which to base your opinions.
 
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Sounds as if it is you who needs some real world experience on which to base your opinions.
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Well said. It seems as if the gun world is one of the few human endeavors where those with limited (or none) experience think that reading a book or watching a TV show gives them the same knowledge base as those who have been doing it for real for years.
 
It seems as if the gun world is one of the few human endeavors where those with limited (or none) experience think that reading a book or watching a TV show gives them the same knowledge base as those who have been doing it for real for years.
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Who decides who falls into what category?
 
Who decides who falls into what category?
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Seems it should be somewhat self-sorting on a continuum. While each person can then decide what terminology to use at which level the difference between the levels should be obvious in a comparative fashion.
 
Well put, Dave.
My best friend is a NYPD LT. with 27 years on the job.
He once joked that police work is the only occupation where those who have never done it feel that they have something to offer to those who do it every day.
I feel the same way about those with only a competition background who feel superior to those with real world armed combat experience.
I suppose it all boils down to just who's opinions we are going to trust our lives to.
 
I don't object to the gamers feeling superior about the games. I think the top-level gamers like Leatham, Enos, and for that matter probably any high-level qualified shooter in any discipline, can certainly teach a lot about shooting, and they are better at that than most anybody else. I do object to a gamer trying to justify a fighting tactic to someone who has been in multiple gunfights, or whose actual FoF scenario time can be measured in hours, or who has spent months kicking in doors and chasing badguys for real whether it be in NC or Fallujah, who knows better.
 
Except!

Matt,

With the shoe on the other foot, Police Officers do not need weapon training, why would they, they know it all!

A trick I have played, the holstered pistol on the duty belt, you see the snap slipped off! Whilst chatting, slip it back on!

On the shoot command, the holster ends up under the armpit.

I do much better teaching teams, or team Instructors. Talk for a while, see what the want, help them with it, sometimes they want to know about mundane things (to us) like checking the Pistol, or talks about ammo; some Officers know what a full round looks like, and a empty one! But no idea how it works.
 
Dave...true..but I have a problem with the top sport shooters teaching cops.
As I would with Mike Tyson teaching boxing self defense to a 40 year old housewife.
What works for the expert with unlimited time and ammo--not to mention inborn natural talent--will probably not work for the typical Joe/Jane police officer.
Britt...I fully agree.
 
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I don't need more FOF Deaf.
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But still Matt, you didn't know people can and do move much faster in a confrontation than in training. That means you are missing something in all your 'experience'.

Next thing you are going to tell me is you didn't know people in emergencies show exceptional strength. Strength they could never duplicate on the range.
 
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