Choosing a long range rifle

There's a BIG difference between shooting 1000, and 1500 or more.

There are many choices that can be effective at the former. Not many at the latter.

You should decide first, if 1500 and further- true ELR shooting- is your intended game before making a decision.

I don't necessarily agree that you need to master 1000 first with another weapon. Yeah, it might be cheaper trigger time, but I'd pick the one that'll deliver on the end game and work with it.

Suggest you frequent this forum, ELR is a specialized area and there are relatively few that have the hardware- and the real estate- to make it a reality. It's one thing to talk theory...

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=5&page=1
 
Seeing how someone posted about 50 BMG and didn't add anything...

When I first bought mine 10+ years ago when .50's were just starting to become popular, guys were shooting 100-500 yards. I couldn't believe it, the only people shooting 1000 yards were competition shooters. Being that I live out in the west and have always gone out to the desert to "really" shoot, it was a no brainer to bring the .50 out and shoot it.

This is looking down range where we go.
dss06_2ktgt71.jpg


The furthest target is 2000 yards, we usually set them from 500, 1K, 1500, 1 mile and 2K. Since I started bringing other 50 Shooters out to this spot guys really get a sense of how much more fun it is to see what the 50 BMG is capable of doing. This is also when they figure out that you need match grade bullets to get any decent type of accuracy past 1K yards. Sure all of the .416 Barrett, 408 CheyTac whatever rounds like to say that they're stuff is better then the 50 BMG. What they don't tell you is that they're using match grade bullets against a standard 50 BMG ball round. When you load up 50 BMG match rounds they'll keep up with anything on the market. I just wish they would compare apples to apples instead of "bending" the truth to sell you a rifle.

This is looking through a Nightforce scope at the 2000 yard target.
dss06_2ktgt72.jpg


As for accuracy, the world record for 50 BMG is right about 2" at 1000 yards. I don't keep up on the competition side of 50 shooting so someone might've shot a group smaller. You can check out the Fifty Caliber Shooters Assoc. website to see what's posted.

These are why I love to shoot in the desert.
dss06_setup62.jpg


dss06_hmv32.jpg
 
I just started shooting F Class at 1000 yards about six months ago. I have shot in five matches so far. Usually, there are around 40 shooters for each match. Many of the 40 are quite accomplished veteran shooters at that distance. My lowest finish has been number 32 and my highest finish has been 18.

My rifle: 1952 Winchester Model 70 in 270 Winchester. It has a Nikon Monarch 8-32X50 sitting on an EGW 40 MOA base and EGW Xhigh rings. I shoot a Hornady 155 grain Amax using Reloder 22 powder.

Like they say - the gun counts!
 
Barrett .416 or Cheytac .408 (or even necked down to .375). The top two sniper rifles imho. More practically id look into .270 for something light flat and long. People can disagree all they want but my sniper mosin shoots out really far and straight. I've made nice clean groups at well past 450 yards.
 
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Well, he didn't say 2000, he said 1000-1500, which is a long way, but not beyond the capability of the .308. Watch the Magpull DVD I linked earlier, you will see them shooting .308 at a mile, and making hits.

It is all about solid fundamentals, and reading the wind.

You don't need a 338-Eargasplitten-Loudenboomer to shoot those ranges, you need skill, and the only way to get it is trigger time, preferably with competent instruction.
 
I think some people miss the point...If I wanted to hold a .22 rifle up in the air and calculate where it would drop on top of my target's head, I would do that :D

True or false, connecting with a target at 1000-1500 yards will be just as easy with my .308 setup as it would with say a 338 or 50 or anything else for that matter?

That's what I'm saying.

Now, I'll be shooting 700-850 yards this weekend with my .308
I'll report back and let you know how it goes. I really don't see me having tremendous success at distances of 1000 yards+ with my current rig.

Not saying it can't be done, but I shoot for consistency, and I think a 1000 yard shot with my current .308 is pushing it to say the least
 
hmm?????

Well the F-T/R crowd (me included) shoots .308 to 1000 regularly. At 1000 yds, the wind is a big factor, but good shots do quite well. (I'm not in that group).

Somebody asked about "What's wrong with your Rem .308" and I'll risk telling you. Get a better scope. I don't know that I have never seen a Millet, on a match firing line. Start somewhere along the lines of a Nikon Monarch X or a Burris XTR and go up from there . The Nikon has limited MOA and only goes to 16x, but a twenty degree base should easily get you to 1000, even with the limited MOA adjustment on the Nikon. BTW, how many MOA of elevation is on the Millet, just for giggles and grins?

I did not read all posts, but are you reloading? I can't imagine getting everything out of your .308 that it is capable of w/o doing so. And the cost would be high for all the shooting you will be doing. I have never seen anybody shoot factory ammo at 1000 in F-T/R, but have seen some in ATC mid range matches. (3-5-600) .

Good luck. Long range gives me fits, but I keep going back.
 
I think some people miss the point
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Yeah. You got a mirror handy?;)

Lets have a look at what you said in your first post, (emphasis added)
I'm the kind of person that appreciates a challenge and therefore I've come to be my own worst critic. I've always strived for success and pushed myslef to extremes to master a variety of skills. As the years have passed, my passion for shooting for fun has grown into what some people have referred to as a 'sickness' in terms of striving for perfection when I'm shooting.
While my friends simply like to go out and shoot whatever targets we could come up with, I've always been the one trying to take it to the next level; setting up a variety of complex shots that require fine tuned shooting techniques in order to make the shot.

At any rate, I'm looking to expand my horizon, and would like to reach out to greater distance with larger calibers and really take my skill to another level.
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If you really want to "master" long range shooting, and "take your skill to the next level", the gear you have is not going to hold you back.

True or false, connecting with a target at 1000-1500 yards will be just as easy with my .308 setup as it would with say a 338 or 50 or anything else for that matter?
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False, of course. Do you want to learn to be a good shot, or do you want easier?

At 1000 yards, using the same missed wind call I mentioned above, You call the wind 60º at 8mph, it is really 90º at 12 mph. I am using my LR Rig, compared to what is possible with yours, a monster .30 Magnum, and a .50 BMG

.308 Win, 190 SMK @ 2500 FPS your wind will be off by 4.8 MOA or 50 inches.
6.5-06 140 SMK @ 2900 FPS, your wind will be off by 3.9 MOA, or 40 inches.
.30-378 WbyMag, 240gr SMK @ 2900 FPS your wind will be off by 2.6 MOA, or 27 inches.
50 BMG, 750 AMAX @ 2600 FPS, your wind will be off by 1.7 MOA, or 18 inches.

So yes, when you screw up the wind call, you won't be as far off target with the better LR rounds, but at the expense of punishing recoil, short barrel life, and fully 2X the powder charge for the .30-378 or 5X for the .50 (not to mention $2 per bullet).

When you get the wind right though, the result is the same if you are using a .308 or a 50 BMG, a hit. A .308 is just fine for 1000 yards, and capable of farther.

And frankly, if you can't shoot your rifle at 800 yards, it isn't the fault of the rifle. Hell, I shot a match to 800 yards with a Mosin Nagant with surplus military ammo and did tolerably well. My buddy shot the same match with a K98k and surplus ammo, the first time he had fired a rifle since he left the Army in the early 1990s and he did just fine as well.

It isn't quite clear from your posts, what sort of LR shooting are you planning on doing? Target shooting (for score) shooting groups, just ringing steel? What is your goal?
 
kraigwy said:
What's wrong with you're Remington for long range shooting?

Spend the extra money on ammo down range learning to read and adjust for conditions.

My best 1000 yard score were fired out of a M1A with a 22 inch barrel.
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This ^ spend more time shooting then progress in equipment. As for you shooting your .308 out to 1000yds, people do it all the time, keeping it supersonic is the challenge. Then the rest will come in to play. What are you running? I don't think you'll have much trouble unless your shooting Nosler or sierra 168grSMK HPBTs in which the steep boattail causes them to lose stability approaching sub sonic speeds.

Right now for instance my .308 load around here stays supersonic out to 1200yds given the proper conditions.

berger 175gr BT LR
44gr Varget
Fed 210m
Nosler CC brass
COL 2.810
@ 2618fps


Emcon said:
Well, he didn't say 2000, he said 1000-1500, which is a long way, but not beyond the capability of the .308. Watch the Magpull DVD I linked earlier, you will see them shooting .308 at a mile, and making hits.

It is all about solid fundamentals, and reading the wind.
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Travis was also 3600MSL :rolleyes:
 
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emcon5, it's clear to me that you lack some fundamental knowledge of the shooting sports' equipment and terminology. Here's stuff that may help and feel you out.

First off, a minute of angle in the shooting sports has been exactly 1 inch per hundred yards since the early 1900's. If you choose to use the trig value, then so be it but it's confusing to those who use the traditional language.

Second, you appear ignorant of why folks started using milder recoiling 26 caliber rifles for long range matches where only hand-held shoulder-fired rifles are allowed and gave up the 30 caliber magnums shooting flatter and bucking the wind better. Muzzle brakes on the big guns do not make them easier to shoot accurately; when they do their stuff, it's too late 'cause the accuracy-robbing thing's already happened. Which is why a good shot with a .308 Win. will shoot straighter hand-holding the rifle shooting off the shoulder at long range than an equally good shot with a 50 caliber rifle. The same reason's why folks shooting the milder .300 Win. Mag. did better than those shooting the much more powerful and wind bucking .338 Lapua Mag. at 1500 yards in the military sniper rifle qualification stages. If you know why, then explain it. I'm curious; others may not be.
 
Here is copy of the F-Class rules on LR shooting

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w22.pdf

If you look number of shots fired @ 1000yds you see 15 or 20 the top score is 150-15x and 200-20x.

Bart B got a question I can look up and see world records for the groups can you post site I can see top records on LR score records for the F-Class? Is there any 200-20x or 150-15x record shot?
 
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Bart B. said:
emcon5, it's clear to me that you lack some fundamental knowledge of the shooting sports' equipment and terminology. Here's stuff that may help and feel you out.
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OK. Thanks. :rolleyes:

Bart B. said:
First off, a minute of angle in the shooting sports has been exactly 1 inch per hundred yards since the early 1900's. If you choose to use the trig value, then so be it but it's confusing to those who use the traditional language.
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A Minute of Angle/Arc is 1.047" at 100 yards, which is close enough to 1" that it doesn't really matter. At 1000 yards it becomes 10.47 inches, which is still pretty close, but enough difference it could be noticed (but probably not by me). If you are telling me that all the scope manufacturers adjustments are based off .995 MOA instead of 1 MOA, I will take you word for it.


Bart B said:
Second, you appear ignorant of why folks started using milder recoiling 26 caliber rifles for long range matches where only hand-held shoulder-fired rifles are allowed and gave up the 30 caliber magnums shooting flatter and bucking the wind better.
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Ignorant huh? That is probably why my F-Class/any-any/LR Varmint rig isn't a 6.5. Oh, Wait, It is a 6.5-06. How in the world did that happen in my ignorance? Must have been an accident.

Bart B said:
Muzzle brakes on the big guns do not make them easier to shoot accurately; when they do their stuff, it's too late 'cause the accuracy-robbing thing's already happened.
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When did I say anything at all about muzzle brakes? Where did anyone say anything about muzzle brakes? (Hint, the first person to mention them at all is some guy named Bart.)

Bart B said:
Which is why a good shot with a .308 Win. will shoot straighter hand-holding the rifle shooting off the shoulder at long range than an equally good shot with a 50 caliber rifle. The same reason's why folks shooting the milder .300 Win. Mag. did better than those shooting the much more powerful and wind bucking .338 Lapua Mag. at 1500 yards in the military sniper rifle qualification stages. If you know why, then explain it. I'm curious; others may not be.
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You do realize I am telling him to shoot the gun he already has, right? You realize I have said that in every post in this thread I have made, right?

He has never shot long range, and people are telling him to buy a fricking CheyTac or a 50 BMG, when he already owns a gun capable of shooting the distances he is talking about. The UK Fullbore guys compete with .308 at 1200 yards, and I remember on the fullbore list discussions of shooting out to 2400 yards (the range is on an island, I don't recall the name, but there was an article on it in Precision Shooting about 15 years ago).

It is true that there are lots of cartridges better than the .308 for long range shooting, I gave numbers for wind drift based on missing a wind call for a number of cartridges so he has a reasonable metric to compare by how much. What he does with that information is up to him. The fact remains, they aren't going to make him any better of a rifleman, or any better at reading the wind, they will just lessen the likelihood of a miss if he gets the wind wrong.

If you want to get good at reading the wind, shoot the .308, because when you get it wrong, you will know it. There will be no doubt.

We still have no idea what kind of shooting he wants to do.

Blackops_2 said:
Travis was also 3600MSL
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OK. I recall they are in West Texas some where, so that sounds about right. My closest 1000 yard range is about 4400MSL. The OP said in his first post he bought some land out west, where I can easily practice 1000-1500 yrd shots. He did not say where, but if "out west" is anywhere between the Rockies and the Sierras his piece of land will probably be that altitude or higher.
 
I thought this thread was going pretty good, no need to start with the "he said, he said" stuff. As far as that goes, I thought that Emcon was giving him good advice.

I threw the .50 in there as it does well at long ranges, you can buy a few different rifles under $3K that do well in the accuracy dept. and when you reload, the cost keeps shooting it worthwhile.
 
My 1000 yard rifle is a 300 RUM, loaded with 210 Berger VLD. One day I will make it up to Raton to actually shoot 1000 yards ...
 
emcon5 says:
If you are telling me that all the scope manufacturers adjustments are based off .995 MOA instead of 1 MOA, I will take you word for it.
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That's how they started a hundred years ago or so.

In the USA, externally adjusted scopes (Sidle, Litschert, Unertl, Fecker, Lyman and later Remington, El Monte and a few others I now forget) all had their bases 7.2 inches apart. 4 clicks on the turrets moved the scope exactly .002000" at that point. That's 1/3600th of 7.2 inches and there's 3600 inches in a hundred yards. 'Twas and still is easy to use and do.

Aperture sights used on USA target rifles had 40 thread per inch adjustment screws on them. 1/3 of a turn moved the scope exactly.008333 inch. And that's exactly 1/3600th of the standard metallic sight radius; distance between rear aperture and front sight.

This 1 inch per hundred yards also worked wel with bullseye targets for both smallbore and high power rifles; their scoring rings were spaced in even inch intervals. Plus, it was easy for folks to do the mental math which was close enough for how it was used.

Nowadays the trigonometric and USA shooting sports MOA stuff gets confusing. Same thing with sights adusted in mils. With four different systems around the world for how much of an arc one mil subtends is nothing short of horrible.

For the same reason, telescopic sight makers could not get the average rifle shooter to understand that parallax was not adjustable and only happened when his eye was off the optical axis of the scope and its front objective lens wasn't focused on the target, they started calling the act of focusing a scope on the target to adjusting parallax.

If you want to get good at reading the wind, shoot the .308, because when you get it wrong, you will know it. There will be no doubt.
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I've wore out four 7.62 NATO barrels in Garands shooting high power matches on a military rifle team. Wore out fifteen more. 308 barrrels, one .264 Win. Mag. barrel and four .30-.338 Win. Mag. barrels in bolt action rifles shooting on local, state, national and even a couple of USA international Palma rifle teams. Got NRA classified at the top as a Long Range High Master with the top 2% of all folks shooting long range. Won more than my share of matches over the years.

You aren't ignorant, but you came across that way. That aside, good shooting anyway. But after you posted all the wind drift data for several cartridges I though I would mention some reasoning behind why those flat-shooting heavy-kickers are not the best thing for shooting hand held off ones shoulder.
 
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