CHL Stops Church Shooting

There is no plausible deniability for the members of his family.

Plausible deniability for what???

For not being psychic enough to know the future?? The killer is dead. We aren't the kind of people who blame the weapon, instead of the shooter, so what's left, blame the family who "knew"? Or blame them because they "should have known?", and didn't turn him in??

Things aren't that simple, and its very, very easy to judge, AFTER the fact, and from outside the situation.

His Uncle said "never in a million years" would he have thought his nephew was capable of doing what he did.

People often show one kind of behavior in public, and to their family, while having something entirely different in their hearts. Even in cases where someone states (sometimes repeatedly) that they are "going to kill that so and so" it is very seldom that such threats are taken seriously.

Also remember that there are two sides to every story, and while the side being reported on today is "he had a history of domestic violence" and therefore was a bad person, the side the family might have heard could have been he was a victim of the system, who got in a fight with his wife, one time, and the system railroaded him, etc.

The information we are seeing about him is being shown to us by investigators, people who find the pieces of the puzzle, and put them together to show the real picture, I find it entirely plausible that while the family might have had all the pieces, they didn't have the ability to put them together.

I read both the linked articles, and a couple of things in the Washington Post article bothered me a bit. The big one was that they said "After fleeing the scene, he was confronted by at least one armed resident and took his own life soon after, police said."

"After fleeing the scene" is quite different from what others are reporting. The other thing that bugged me might just be my opinion about proper journalistic style, but saying "at least" one armed resident, and later saying that police recovered "at least" 4 guns, simply tells me the author doesn't have verifiable FACTS, and is just writing to hear themselves speak, not to pass along factual information.

The investigation is ongoing, there may well be more pertinent information disclosed. I think that blaming the family, or the background check system is the wrong approach. The person responsible is the one who pulled the trigger, who is currently dead, and appears will remain so for the foreseeable future.

I do think we need to point out to people that an "AR style" rifle was used to STOP the attack. That they aren't just the "weapon of mass murders" but they are also the weapon of the defenders, as well.
 
Excellent post 44amp

The investigation is ongoing, there may well be more pertinent information disclosed. I think that blaming the family, or the background check system is the wrong approach. The person responsible is the one who pulled the trigger, who is currently dead, and appears will remain so for the foreseeable future.

I will say that almost every source now states that per existing law, he was a prohibited person. Even the USAF has admitted that and has launched an internal investigation into why he wasn't reported to NICS. At any rate, I digress. You are correct in the end. There are tons of people who aren't spouse abusers who, at some point, were placed into a precarious situation where it could appear as if they are. I've responded to a number of domestic calls where one spouse could have (very technically) been arrested just for pushing the other spouse (or significant other) off of them. Many states are "shall arrest" states for domestic crimes, no matter how minor. No officer discretion allowed. For all we know this is the story heard by the shooter's family, and I agree we don't have enough facts to try and throw them under the bus or smear their name.
 
Looks like the shooter spent most of his air force career in some kind of legal trouble. He escaped a mental facility in 2012 for threatening to kill his superiors and trying to smuggle guns on base.
 
Looks like the shooter spent most of his air force career in some kind of legal trouble. He escaped a mental facility in 2012 for threatening to kill his superiors and trying to smuggle guns on base.

Good post.

The shooter escaped from the mental health facility and was arrested in El Paso.

The USAF gave the shooter a pass on some serious charges. They could have put him away for many years.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-...health-facility-after-attacking-wife-stepson/
 
Plausible deniability for what???

I am offering another take. Instead of, "Gun Control, and new legislation." Maybe negligence exists, maybe criminal negligence exists.

If anything, maybe there is enough here for a wrongful death lawsuit.

The facts as I interpret them from the way I have read, what has been reported: The shooting occurred during an ongoing domestic situation, the shooter sent texts threatening the in laws, the shooter lived with his wife/infant on property owned by his family, the neighbors would hear gun shots but thought nothing of it.

If we can believe the neighbors would hear gun shots, we must assume the family knew who on their property had access to firearms.

This ongoing domestic situation with threats et al seemed unreported to police.

I do not think the family can plausibly deny they knew: this guy had a violent past, had firearms illegally, and was exhibiting off the fringe behavior.

I am willing to admit I could be 100% wrong. I just wanted to answer your question, "plausibly deny what." Cause obviously I was unclear.

His Uncle said "never in a million years" would he have thought his nephew was capable of doing what he did.

Maybe true. Maybe his uncle never thought his nephew would be, "so brutal and monstrous."

Did the uncle know the nephew's violent past? Did the uncle know the nephew had arms?

Because that is where I think negligence exists.

These people were totally oblivious. If not, they were negligent, or perhaps criminally negligent, or perhaps did not want to involve the police in their domestic disputes.

Perhaps they were just totally oblivious.

People often show one kind of behavior in public, and to their family, while having something entirely different in their hearts..

I think that is kind of a generalization it does not describe the vast majority of people I know. I am willing to admit that some people present the world with a façade. I also think psychopaths are a subsect of general human behavior. Sociology would seem to say that people are the sum of their culture and their upbringing and are very much representations of that out in the world.

I think in the case of psychopaths particularly with this shooter his behavior was known. I am saying he was, "known to be violent." I don't think he had a façade he showed to his family, friends, certainly not the USAF.

I don't think he was a, "good hider," of his violent tendencies, I don't believe it could be well argued that people were oblivious to his violence.

the side the family might have heard could have been he was a victim of the system, who got in a fight with his wife, one time, and the system railroaded him, etc.

You believe they were misinformed to the facts of the case. And they just went on believing whatever they were told because they are oblivious type peoples?


I find it entirely plausible that while the family might have had all the pieces, they didn't have the ability to put them together.

Right, they had to be oblivious. Where we disagree, and not plausible.

That being said, I am willing to admit my assessment of the situation could be way off. I could be totally wrong.

Maybe I am looking for things that are not there. I am just trying to get some understanding on a psychopath and the situation. I think that is what most of America is trying to do as well.

It just seems that a 911 call Saturday could have totally prevented this situation, and why didn't that happen? And we can only say, "because his family are kind of oblivious peoples, they just had no idea, never in a million years."

That doesn't add up. Human beings talk to each other. People gossip. People know things about other people.


Anyways, I am going to drop this here. And I am going to recuse myself from further postings in this thread as I have no real understanding of this situation.

I just wonder why
 
That doesn't add up. Human beings talk to each other. People gossip. People know things about other people.

I'll agree with this, BUT, do keep in mind that "there are none so blind as those who will not see", and when it comes to family members a lot of people go blind.

They simply "cannot in a million years" imagine the child they once knew growing into an adult who does evil. There are likely millions of cases where "everyone in the family knows", and no one does anything about it.

Ever see the mother of a killer state how they knew he was bad, and was going to do something bad, and come to a bad end?

Not very often. It's nearly always "he was a good boy...etc.,"

At what point are we "our brother's keeper??"
Morally? Legally??

What if you're just the kind of person who doesn't really pay attention to what others say, or do, unless it personally affects you? Lots of folks like that, and its not a crime, to not be the watchdog of the community, until the rare case when it is...

Or the other side of the coin, what about the watchdog who sends the authorities to someone who isn't doing wrong?? Just because they think he might?? There are legal consequences for doing that, as well.

Lets say you are told that there is a bomb, and that it is likely to go off, soon. You're not told where, or when. You are given a 1,500 piece jigsaw puzzle, and on the back of each piece is a code. ONE of the codes tells you where, another one tells you when, and another one will disarm the bomb, but only if the first two are entered before the last one. (and to make it really interesting, if you enter a wrong code, the bomb gets moved, and you get a new puzzle, with more pieces)

Your job is to stop the bomb going off.

GO!
tick, tock, tick, tock..

BOOM!!!

too late!

Now, everyone turns to you and says "WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP IT??? YOU HAD ALL THE INFORMATION!!!!!"

Are you responsible for the bomb going off?? Do you deserve jail for failing to stop it?? I say no. You are, of course, free to disagree.

It a very slippery slope, punishing people for what they didn't do, and you think they ought to have done. There are standards in law, people have been convicted and sent to prison for not reporting a crime before it can happen, but its a pretty rare thing.
 
The USAF failed, the NICS failed, and the courts and mental health systems failed. If someone who knew this loser had expressed concern to law enforcement what reason is there to believe that this tragedy would have been prevented? Do we really want to rely on a system of informants instead of a better system?
 
There are standards in law, people have been convicted and sent to prison for not reporting a crime before it can happen, but its a pretty rare thing.

Rare indeed. It typically goes against the common law system of requiring mens rea UNLESS you prove that someone had specific knowledge that he was going to harm others. Even then, you would not be culpable of the actual murders, but instead you would be obstructing justice. Knowing that he is unstable, and owns firearms, is not enough. Heck you can ride with your buddy to a convenience store, watch him rob it, and not stop him; and not be guilty of a crime. You better have compelling evidence that you had no fore-knowledge that he was going to do this, but if he walks in and robs the joint and you back off saying "no I'm not part of this," and aid police in the investigation, then you aren't culpable in any crime.

If the family knew that he should be a prohibited person, knew that he had a firearm, and allowed him to stay on their property and possess/practice with those weapons... well there may be some criminality there.
 
The USAF failed, the NICS failed, and the courts and mental health systems failed. If someone who knew this loser had expressed concern to law enforcement what reason is there to believe that this tragedy would have been prevented? Do we really want to rely on a system of informants instead of a better system?


The existing system failed but I get the impression that the "solution" will likely be to expand that system and without showing how that expansion will actually help improve it.
 
A lot of people on every forum I post at are clinging to the private sale / "gun-show-loophole" as a reason why this would have happened anyways even if his 4473 forms had been denied. Statistically speaking that seems quite implausible and I haven't yet found a mass shooting perpetrated by a killer who acquired his guns via private sale.

So far I've only found cases of the guns being stolen or legally purchased. Closest I can get is San Bernardino where the neighbor provided the guns to the shooters, but in that case I believe the FBI determined the neighbor was actually a co-conspirator so it's not quite the same as the Wal-Mart parking lot stranger-to-stranger private sales we're generally thinking of when we say private sale.

Despite this, I'm coming down on the opinion that it might be best if we simply open the NICS system to the general public and allow all citizens to call and run a background check at no personal expense, and mandate that they do so. No 4473 or anything just the NICS check. This change would silence the private sale critics with no real reduction in rights or burden imposed if handled properly.

I think the greater issue we need to work to address is how to prevent the bad actors who can legally pass a 4473 but who intend harm, like the Vegas shooter, without reducing our rights.
 
Despite this, I'm coming down on the opinion that it might be best if we simply open the NICS system to the general public and allow all citizens to call and run a background check at no personal expense, and mandate that they do so. No 4473 or anything just the NICS check. This change would silence the private sale critics with no real reduction in rights or burden imposed if handled properly.


So basically, anyone could access the system whether there was a firearm transaction or not? How would you be able to prove that you ran the transaction through the system?
 
I haven't yet found a mass shooting perpetrated by a killer who acquired his guns via private sale.

The Columbus shooters received their firearms through a straw purchase by a friend who was of legal age to purchase through FFLs. IIRC, the friend was not charged and went on the Brady tour speaking out for background checks in 1999.
 
The Columbus shooters received their firearms through a straw purchase by a friend who was of legal age to purchase through FFLs. IIRC, the friend was not charged and went on the Brady tour speaking out for background checks in 1999.

Columbine? I was reading about this recently - there were 3 people involved in acquiring the guns: two went to prison (6 years and 4 1/2 years I think) because it was a handgun, and the other one wasn't charged. She bought 3 of the 4 guns used in a private sale at a gun show (the 2 shotguns and the 9mm carbine). She wasn't charged with anything because she didn't make any false statements on a 4473 (since it was a private sale) and she didn't transfer any handguns to minors.

https://web.archive.org/web/2001022...ockymountainnews.com/shooting/1003robyn.shtml
 
Sequins said:
Despite this, I'm coming down on the opinion that it might be best if we simply open the NICS system to the general public and allow all citizens to call and run a background check at no personal expense, and mandate that they do so.
This idea has been discussed at length in the L&CR subforum, and IMHO it is a very bad idea for the following reasons:
  • The system will be vulnerable to misuse, both from pranksters and trolls (picture SJW college students making tens of thousands of prank calls on Black Friday to sandbag sporting goods retailers during their holiday sales), and from ostensibly well-meaning folks using it to conduct spurious background checks on potential employees, dating partners, and so forth;
  • The system will get badly bogged down by novices who don't have any idea what they're doing when they call;
  • A big budget increase will be necessary to handle the additional call volume, particularly from the novices, and
  • There is potential for serious and malicious criminal abuse, e.g. ex-spouse in a custody battle knows that his former spouse is a prohibited person due to an old drug conviction, and he "SWATs" her by pretending he's a gun-show seller, calling in a phony NICS check, and when she flunks, claiming that some other seller must not have called because she's already walking around with two AR-15s.
 
Sequins said:
Despite this, I'm coming down on the opinion that it might be best if we simply open the NICS system to the general public and allow all citizens to call and run a background check at no personal expense, and mandate that they do so. No 4473 or anything just the NICS check. This change would silence the private sale critics with no real reduction in rights or burden imposed if handled properly.
So then are all states going to end up like Washington (state), where you have to run a background check before you can lend your .22 plinker to your brother to take for a week on a camping trip, or even just for an afternoon at the range?

I think it would be a mistake to cave on this. Before we agree to ANY new laws, the usual suspects should focus on fixing the flaws in the Byzantine system they have already created. We have already had multiple Congresscritters in Washington (DC) proposing new laws to close "loopholes" that are actually already well covered by the existing laws. They have no idea what the current laws require and allow -- they just want to pass more new laws because ... well we have to do SOMETHING!

When do we just say, "ENOUGH, already," and admit that it's simply not possible to pass enough laws to absolutely prevent evil people from committing evil deeds? That has been a fact of life since before the beginning of recorded history. Someone who is determined will find a way. Look at this guy's history -- according to reports, while he was in a mental facility after beating his wife and stepchild, he was using the facility's computers to order guns that he wanted sent to a post office box so he could use them to shoot his commanding officer (actually, the report said "chain of command," so perhaps more than just his CO). And then he jumped a fence and boogied. How many laws were broken long before he acquired that first firearm in Colorado?

I read an article shortly after the Sandy Hook school shooting that ran down the number of laws that were broken in that one incident. Remember, the hue and cry then, as now, was to pass more laws. The article came up with 22 (yes, TWENTY-TWO) laws that were broken in the Sandy Hook incident. How can any sane, rational person believe that piling JUST ONE MORE law on top of those TWENTY-TWO laws that were broken could possibly have prevented the incident? That's just not logical or credible.
 
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Aguila Blanca said:
I think it would be a mistake to cave on this. Before we agree to ANY new laws, the usual suspects should focus on fixing the flaws in the Byzantine system they have already created. We have already had multiple Congresscritters in Washington (DC) proposing new laws to close "loopholes" that are actually already well covered by the existing laws. They have no idea what the current laws require and allow -- they just want to pass more new laws because ... well we have to do SOMETHING!
Exactly.

A big part of the problem with making the current system (such as it is) work is that no one -- not the states, not the feds -- is willing to fund the reporting systems required to transfer information such as involuntary mental health commitments from state agencies to the NICS system. Until lawmakers are willing to spend the money to make the existing mechanisms work, passing new laws is the purest hypocrisy.
 
So then are all states going to end up like Washington (state), ....
It happened in Oregon in a public manner when the pastor gave an AR15 won in a raffle to someone to hold until it could be destroyed and it wasn’t enforced
 
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