Children of Beslan
- Thread starter Rebar
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Yet they use "classic" Islamic terror techniques. Go figure. And explain how cutting the heads off white tourists advances their cause for independence, rather than scoring points with allah.
Prove it. Show me evidence of even one mosque in America that was taken over by militants, that was retaken by moderates.
al-Taqiyya
Uh, no. The Russians never specifically targeted children. And the Russians treated everyone the same, yet it's only the muslems that are committing terrorism.
You're trying to whitewash Islam by disowning the terrorists, but the terrorists are in fact muslems, and are in fact following the koran, despite your attempts to hide this connection.
I cannot possibly do this. My very existance, and the existance of Western society, causes this extremism. I will not commit suicide, nor will I tear down my culture just to please people who want to return to the 14th century and bugger boys in "paradise" for all eternity.
Your theory that the terrorists are not muslems is beyond Disney, you're deep into Teletubbie territory there. Denying the truth about Islam and terrorism is a sure-fire recipie for failure and defeat in the war on terror, a war that we must win. And we will win, if our resolve and nerve holds.
shootinstudent
New member
Rebar,
What this has come down to is you, in response to my links to moderate muslim organizations, the Koran, and historical info...simply repeating yourself. That is what you are doing, without really getting to any substantive issues. You totally dropped the comparisons to the brutality of the Byzantines and Europeans, the point that the most widely accepted Islamic scholars condemn terrorism, and substituted instead:
Sir, with all due respect, your problem is that you are getting at least 80 percent of your information on Islam from missionary websites, and not from reputable historical or academic sources.
Let's go to the specifics of your last post now:
When's the last time a Malay, Thai, or Filipino terrorist attacked someone outside of his tribal territory in SE Asia? It's never happened. Not even once. There's one distinguishing factor that should tip you off. Another: these folks are known for malay-tradition, not for "wahhabist radicalism." They are not religiously, linguistically, or culturally related to the Arabs who bombed the world trade center in any way.
This is a silly demand for proof. When a Church goes bad, its members leave to other churches. It is not necessary to show that Pat Robertson's group has been reconquered by non-money grubbing Christians to claim that Christians in general oppose that kind of televangelism. Likewise, the existence of Islamic scholar groups condemning the influence of radical mosques and starting their own ought to do the trick...and it's all there at www.amislam.com, which you clearly did not take the opportunity to read.
As for Al-Taqqiya....every last verse on the page you mentioned deals with denying one's faith in order to remain alive. That is not a "duty to lie to infidels", it's a duty to save one's life. It has precisely zero application to this debate. Muslims are allowed to say that they are not muslims in order to stop themselves from being tortured and killed. That is the extent of Al-Taqqiya.
No, the Russians didn't treat everyone the same. There aren't Russian armies levelling neighborhoods in Kiev. There are and have been Russian armies doing that in Grozny. If you think the Russians did not kill kids...see your relatives' example. I think "entire families" included kids. It's hard to kill 20 something million people without including kids, and that's what the Russians did this past century.
1. Applies only to the pagans who were trying to kill Muhammad in Mecca
2. Is followed by an explicit command to make peace whenever possible, and to spare anyone who asks to be spared.
Again, see historical examples. Christians lived very well under Muslim empires until after World War I. That's a LONG time of coexistence. This point is simply a denial of any serious look at history or even the modern terrorist movements and their relationship to mainstream Islamic teaching. I've cited Islamic teaching and historical facts to make this case. You, in turn, have repeated yourself. I'll have to ask you again to explain the Turks, the Emirate of Spain, the warm reception the monophysites gave to the Arabs in North Africa and Syria.....AND, the fact that in modern times, Terrorists aren't calling for the end to non-Muslim rule in Syria. You didn't address any of those points, so if you want to keep a valid argument on this point, please do.
Yes, my knowledge of muslim practice and history is far beyond Disney. It is not cartoonish like yours. I'm interested, and I hope that answering this question won't cause you to ignore all the other points I've raised:
If all of the 1.2 billion Muslims are against the US, then how on earth do you plan to win? The religion isn't going to go away any time soon, especially not if you buy that all muslims are fanatics willing to die for it. So just how exactly is your "resolve and nerve" going to beat it?
What you're doing is dreaming up a "war of the worlds" that doesn't exist and never has. There are evil people in every time and culture, and if you are honest about what those people are and why they act, you can work to stop them. If you choose instead to lump everyone who speaks the same language or has a similar name in with those criminals....you will do nothing but end up advocating genocide.
What this has come down to is you, in response to my links to moderate muslim organizations, the Koran, and historical info...simply repeating yourself. That is what you are doing, without really getting to any substantive issues. You totally dropped the comparisons to the brutality of the Byzantines and Europeans, the point that the most widely accepted Islamic scholars condemn terrorism, and substituted instead:
Sir, with all due respect, your problem is that you are getting at least 80 percent of your information on Islam from missionary websites, and not from reputable historical or academic sources.
Let's go to the specifics of your last post now:
When's the last time a Malay, Thai, or Filipino terrorist attacked someone outside of his tribal territory in SE Asia? It's never happened. Not even once. There's one distinguishing factor that should tip you off. Another: these folks are known for malay-tradition, not for "wahhabist radicalism." They are not religiously, linguistically, or culturally related to the Arabs who bombed the world trade center in any way.
This is a silly demand for proof. When a Church goes bad, its members leave to other churches. It is not necessary to show that Pat Robertson's group has been reconquered by non-money grubbing Christians to claim that Christians in general oppose that kind of televangelism. Likewise, the existence of Islamic scholar groups condemning the influence of radical mosques and starting their own ought to do the trick...and it's all there at www.amislam.com, which you clearly did not take the opportunity to read.
As for Al-Taqqiya....every last verse on the page you mentioned deals with denying one's faith in order to remain alive. That is not a "duty to lie to infidels", it's a duty to save one's life. It has precisely zero application to this debate. Muslims are allowed to say that they are not muslims in order to stop themselves from being tortured and killed. That is the extent of Al-Taqqiya.
No, the Russians didn't treat everyone the same. There aren't Russian armies levelling neighborhoods in Kiev. There are and have been Russian armies doing that in Grozny. If you think the Russians did not kill kids...see your relatives' example. I think "entire families" included kids. It's hard to kill 20 something million people without including kids, and that's what the Russians did this past century.
This is a repeat of a claim that you have once again failed to support with any reference to a widely accepted Islamic authority. I already responded with several Quranic quotes and two Imams from both major factions in Islam who've issued Fatwas against terrorism. I won't bother to respond again unless you can come up with Koran quotes or at the very least fatwas from one of the major fiqhs to support your point. Every single verse you quoted, if you bothered to check...
1. Applies only to the pagans who were trying to kill Muhammad in Mecca
2. Is followed by an explicit command to make peace whenever possible, and to spare anyone who asks to be spared.
Again, see historical examples. Christians lived very well under Muslim empires until after World War I. That's a LONG time of coexistence. This point is simply a denial of any serious look at history or even the modern terrorist movements and their relationship to mainstream Islamic teaching. I've cited Islamic teaching and historical facts to make this case. You, in turn, have repeated yourself. I'll have to ask you again to explain the Turks, the Emirate of Spain, the warm reception the monophysites gave to the Arabs in North Africa and Syria.....AND, the fact that in modern times, Terrorists aren't calling for the end to non-Muslim rule in Syria. You didn't address any of those points, so if you want to keep a valid argument on this point, please do.
Yes, my knowledge of muslim practice and history is far beyond Disney. It is not cartoonish like yours. I'm interested, and I hope that answering this question won't cause you to ignore all the other points I've raised:
If all of the 1.2 billion Muslims are against the US, then how on earth do you plan to win? The religion isn't going to go away any time soon, especially not if you buy that all muslims are fanatics willing to die for it. So just how exactly is your "resolve and nerve" going to beat it?
What you're doing is dreaming up a "war of the worlds" that doesn't exist and never has. There are evil people in every time and culture, and if you are honest about what those people are and why they act, you can work to stop them. If you choose instead to lump everyone who speaks the same language or has a similar name in with those criminals....you will do nothing but end up advocating genocide.
spacemanspiff
New member
RETURNING to the actual thread topic......
this is a documentary worth buying if its released on video/dvd.
this is a documentary worth buying if its released on video/dvd.
Clearly you ignore my points (such as the extreme anti-semitism of Islamic culture today), and bring up cherry-picked, yet irrelivent, historical topics, to promote these absurd notions that the terrorists are not muslems, that the west is just as, if not more, evil then Islam, terrorists (who are not muslems) are just defending Islam, and that Mohammad was a great guy. You keep throwing out that there are 1.2 billion muslems, which is irrelivent, as some kind of talisman against the truth.
No one is claiming that every muslem is a terrorist. But to claim that NO terrorist is a muslem is rediculous and, frankly, destroys your credibility as someone worthy to have a discussion with. That Islamic terrorists are operating around the world, is beyond dispute, yet you dispute it. That there is widespread support throughout the Islamic world for OBL and his ilk is beyond dispute, yet you dispute it. That Islam is an anti-Western philosphy that encourages terrorism is beyond dispute, yet you dispute it.
You bring up one guy no one ever heard of, who wrote something no one ever read, as some kind of final word on what the real meaning of Islam is, which is rediculous. OBL is a muslem, with far more power and credibility then your Mr. Whoever. Iran is run by Mullahs who fully support, train, fund, and encourage terrorist, all muslems.
I'm looking at the truth, you're trying to hide it. I'll let the readers and membership decide who's right or wrong here. In my view, you're not engaging in honest discussion, so I won't continue to waste time and bandwidth on this issue.
But for those who think Islam is a religon of peace:
http://www.bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm
will give you food for thought.
No one is claiming that every muslem is a terrorist. But to claim that NO terrorist is a muslem is rediculous and, frankly, destroys your credibility as someone worthy to have a discussion with. That Islamic terrorists are operating around the world, is beyond dispute, yet you dispute it. That there is widespread support throughout the Islamic world for OBL and his ilk is beyond dispute, yet you dispute it. That Islam is an anti-Western philosphy that encourages terrorism is beyond dispute, yet you dispute it.
You bring up one guy no one ever heard of, who wrote something no one ever read, as some kind of final word on what the real meaning of Islam is, which is rediculous. OBL is a muslem, with far more power and credibility then your Mr. Whoever. Iran is run by Mullahs who fully support, train, fund, and encourage terrorist, all muslems.
I'm looking at the truth, you're trying to hide it. I'll let the readers and membership decide who's right or wrong here. In my view, you're not engaging in honest discussion, so I won't continue to waste time and bandwidth on this issue.
But for those who think Islam is a religon of peace:
http://www.bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm
will give you food for thought.
The Muslim Brotherhood started off as a reform organization in the late 20s. It eventually became a political group. In the mid 40s and 50s it was outlawed and members were imprisoned. it was outlawed by Egypt. Anwar Sadat let the Brotherhood come back to Egypt. There were two groups within the brotherhood, the older ones who wanted to be an activist organization and the younger ones who beleived violence was necessary. Two of the more famous of the latter group was the "Blind" Shiek Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman who was tried and convicted for the World trade center Bombings and Ayman al-Zawahiri (No.2 in Al Queda) who went off into splinter groups.
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
"The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15)."
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
"The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15)."
shootinstudent
New member
I fail to see how the fact that you are focusing on a small percentage of a comparatively HUGE number of people to describe the religion of the whole people is irrelevant. If only a percent of a percent of Muslims are doing these things, do you think that might be relevant to a discussion about what Islam teaches everyone to do?
Please quote where I disputed either of these facts. What I did say for certain, and will repeat is: Terrorist wahhabists do not follow traditional or mainstream forms of Islam. Most Muslims are Sunni, the next smallest sect is Shiite, and both officially and regularly condemn terrorism. I cited imams to show you that, to which you replied:
You have never heard of these people, including Sistani, because you aren't looking. It's not their fault that you don't bother to read any sources that are from the islamic world, which brings me to...
This is exactly the problem I spoke of in my last post. Reading a bible missionary website to learn about Islam or history is like reading an Islamic website for opinions on the doctrine of the trinity. It makes no sense. If you want to learn about what Muslims are thinking and doing, go to Islamic websites that follow the majority schools.
If you want to learn about history, start here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/islam/islamsbook.html. That has primary sources and is 100 percent academic. It will help you to break this distorted view you've received from missionary websites.
Alright, let me summarize what's happening here: I cited specific examples from history spanning from 611 all the way to the present day rule of the non-Muslim Assads in Syria. I also cited the Koran, Religious teachers commenting on the Koran, and some famous European and Iraqi Imams.
In response, you called my history "cherry picking" without offering a single explanation yourself or historical example to back up your point, and then said "you are lying" about what Muslims actually believe. You substantiated that point by repeating, with increasing incredulity, what you said last time.
hmph.
The thing that identifies these groups as not being of the Islamic mainstream is the fact that they pick and choose the parts of the Koran they wish to follow...
one of these concerns suicide.....
Islam views suicide as a sin which is not forgiven. The terrorists use the word martyr.... Those who take thier own lives are not martyrs but sinners under Islam. Islam considers a true martyr to be someone who dies at the hands of his enemies not his own hand.
This is just one of the examples of the misuse of the Koran by terrorists islamic groups.
Bernard Lewis put it best...
"Not every Muslim is a Fundamentalist, not every Fundamentalist is a Terrorist."
Chrisitanity has no less a bloody history that does Islam.
one of these concerns suicide.....
Islam views suicide as a sin which is not forgiven. The terrorists use the word martyr.... Those who take thier own lives are not martyrs but sinners under Islam. Islam considers a true martyr to be someone who dies at the hands of his enemies not his own hand.
This is just one of the examples of the misuse of the Koran by terrorists islamic groups.
Bernard Lewis put it best...
"Not every Muslim is a Fundamentalist, not every Fundamentalist is a Terrorist."
Chrisitanity has no less a bloody history that does Islam.
shootinstudent
New member
Eghad,
Thanks for the history on the Muslim Brotherhood, and for the quotation. I hadn't seen that one myself yet.
Thanks for the history on the Muslim Brotherhood, and for the quotation. I hadn't seen that one myself yet.
Islam, The religion of peace
Ya all feelin tha peace yet!!!
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks
http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm
Ya all feelin tha peace yet!!!
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks
http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm
shootinstudent
New member
Molonlabe,
That's what the entire discussion is about. I refer you to posts 1-49 for a discussion on the point.
That's what the entire discussion is about. I refer you to posts 1-49 for a discussion on the point.
Is Chrisitanity any less a religion of peace?
Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa in Northeren Ireland? Did the Catholic and Protestant terrorist groups there speak for mainstream Christianity?
Just as the Klu Klux Klan is a part of the Chrisitianity Identity Movement.. Does the Klu Klux Klan represent mainstream Chrisitanity? They too have perpetrated acts of violence in the name of God.
Ill give props to Osama for wanting folks to beleive his movement represents Islam. His ideal is to ignite a war between the West and all of Islam. Looking at some of the opinions on this board he is winning the battle for the minds.
Once again Western Civilization fails to understand Islam.
Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa in Northeren Ireland? Did the Catholic and Protestant terrorist groups there speak for mainstream Christianity?
Just as the Klu Klux Klan is a part of the Chrisitianity Identity Movement.. Does the Klu Klux Klan represent mainstream Chrisitanity? They too have perpetrated acts of violence in the name of God.
Ill give props to Osama for wanting folks to beleive his movement represents Islam. His ideal is to ignite a war between the West and all of Islam. Looking at some of the opinions on this board he is winning the battle for the minds.
Once again Western Civilization fails to understand Islam.
I have read these threads to the point of pointlessness. ANY and I mean ANY religion, cult, group, political system or group of people become a danger when ever the express superiority over others. That pretty much includes all the groups used thus far as an example. I’m going to make a leap here. All Muslims are not terrorist, but I will say all Muslims are potential terrorist. This is evidenced by the lack of condemnation throughout the Muslim world of the acts of the radical fraction. When they came to realize their civilization has produced nothing over thousands of years that in itself threatened their inborn superiority they feel because of their faith, add in the power-seeking mullahs afraid of a reformation or Renaissance by the young to modernize and secularize you have a power keg that the extremist have lit off. (run on sentence)
We have fought trash like this in the Second World War with the Japanese AND WON. We or I should say civilization can win this one. If no one has read the link I posted (the second one) it list acts recorded since 9/11. That is our threat now, not the KKK or Christianity.
I don’t know why I involve myself in this sometimes. This is a gun board. Threads about guns being confiscated in New Orleans are shut down and this one still carries on. Go figure.
We have fought trash like this in the Second World War with the Japanese AND WON. We or I should say civilization can win this one. If no one has read the link I posted (the second one) it list acts recorded since 9/11. That is our threat now, not the KKK or Christianity.
I don’t know why I involve myself in this sometimes. This is a gun board. Threads about guns being confiscated in New Orleans are shut down and this one still carries on. Go figure.
shootinstudent
New member
See posts 32 and 46. The condemnation is there. You're just not seeing it because you don't really have access to the Muslim world.
When's the last time you read a mainstream muslim daily, or a muslim religious publication?
The muslims civilization produced nothing over thousands of years?
Without question, the greatest name in physics during the Arab/Islamic Empire was Ibn al-Hay-tham, born in the city of Basra, Iraq, in 965 A.D. By the time he died in 1030, he had made major contributions to optics, astronomy and mathematics, some of which would not be improved upon for six centuries.
but a few examples can be mentioned, such as: logarithms and algebra in mathematics, the pendulum in technology (650 years before Galileo "discovered" it), the mariner's compass, the astrolabe, the introduction of paper, and many new techniques in agriculture and medicine.
the words algebra and chemistry come form Arabic words. I wonder how many other words of science have thier basis in Arabic?
When European scientists began to turn their attention to chemistry, they accepted Ibn Hayyan as their mentor. In 1144 the Englishman Robert of Chester translated Ibn Hayyan's Book of the Composition of Alchemy into Latin, and Gerard of Cremona also made another translation of Ibn Hayyan's other important work Book of the Seventy. Ibn Hayyan's 17th century English translator, Richard Russell, called him: "Geber, the Most Famous Arabian Prince and Philosopher
The great Persian Muslim scientist Abu Bakr al-Razi (aka Rhazes: 865-925) of Abbasid's Baghdad was the greatest medical authority in the entire Islamic civilization. His major works were translated into Latin. A pioneering physician, al-Razi was the first to describe pupillary reflexes; gave the world's first account of smallpox and measles; discovered the contagious characters of diseases; and differentiated among colic pain, kidney-stone pain, and the pains of the ileus. His ten-part treatise in Arabic on clinical and internal medicine, at-Tibb al-Mansuri that was translated into Latin under the title Medicinalis Almansoris, was widely influential in the West throughout the Middle Ages.
Another medical genius was Abu al-Qasim Az-Zahrawi (aka Albucasis: 936-1013), an Arab from the great Arab Andalusian civilization. Az-Zahrawi is considered to be Islam's greatest medieval surgeon who single-handedly shaped European surgical procedures until the Renaissance. His 30-part medical encyclopedia, At-Tasrif ("The Method"), which contained over 200 surgical medical instruments he personally designed, was a surgical treatise that had a tremendous influence on Western medicine. Translated into Latin in the 12th century by the Italian scholar Gerard of Cremona, at-Tasrif stood for nearly 500 years as the leading textbook on surgery in Europe, preferred for its concise lucidity even to the great works of the classical Greek medical authority Galen of Pergamum.
The second is an encyclopedia by the name of al-Qanun fi at-Tibb ("The Canon of Medicine"), the most famous single book in the history of medicine in both East and West. The Canon became the medical authority not only in the Islamic world where it was used as a major reference until the 19th century, but also in the Western world where it was used for more than 500 years.
The Arabs were the first to establish phamacology and pharmacies. They also made advances in Vetinary medicine and zoology. Thier works in philosphy were also the basis for some of the Western philosophers. There were also great advances in Literature, Art and Music in the Muslim Empire.
The Muslim Empire of this period was tolerant and a haven for men of science.
Now remember that while "Chrisitianty" is declaring men of science heretics and burning them or imprisioning them or burning thier works and silencing them. Also review what happend after the Spanish won thier independence from the Arabs... The "Inquisition"...wow that was a great step forward wasnt it?
This is mighty amazing that they discovered this while themselves coming out of the desert not too long ago during that period...while we had the dark ages in the west.
I myself along with other Americans have little knowledge of the muslim world.
I was lucky in the fact that while deployed I had the chance to work and talk with muslims and make a visit to the the city of Samarkand. The Architecture is mind boggling.
In this modern city there were not only mosques but synagogues and churches.
Now sometime around 1406 the Muslim empire collapsed like so many others before the west enjoyed a leap in technology. Where did some of the foundations for this leap come from? From the Arabs who had established the groundwork in mathematics and science and other areas. The wars and losses to the Crusaders may have opened the doors for this period of enlightenment to end when a bunch of Muslims who were just as mean spirited as the Western Chrisitans took over things ending a great period of learning and tolerance...
wow 600 years ago and today we still use stuff that the Arabs had a hand in developing
That which we are ignorant of we tend to fear.
Without question, the greatest name in physics during the Arab/Islamic Empire was Ibn al-Hay-tham, born in the city of Basra, Iraq, in 965 A.D. By the time he died in 1030, he had made major contributions to optics, astronomy and mathematics, some of which would not be improved upon for six centuries.
but a few examples can be mentioned, such as: logarithms and algebra in mathematics, the pendulum in technology (650 years before Galileo "discovered" it), the mariner's compass, the astrolabe, the introduction of paper, and many new techniques in agriculture and medicine.
the words algebra and chemistry come form Arabic words. I wonder how many other words of science have thier basis in Arabic?
When European scientists began to turn their attention to chemistry, they accepted Ibn Hayyan as their mentor. In 1144 the Englishman Robert of Chester translated Ibn Hayyan's Book of the Composition of Alchemy into Latin, and Gerard of Cremona also made another translation of Ibn Hayyan's other important work Book of the Seventy. Ibn Hayyan's 17th century English translator, Richard Russell, called him: "Geber, the Most Famous Arabian Prince and Philosopher
The great Persian Muslim scientist Abu Bakr al-Razi (aka Rhazes: 865-925) of Abbasid's Baghdad was the greatest medical authority in the entire Islamic civilization. His major works were translated into Latin. A pioneering physician, al-Razi was the first to describe pupillary reflexes; gave the world's first account of smallpox and measles; discovered the contagious characters of diseases; and differentiated among colic pain, kidney-stone pain, and the pains of the ileus. His ten-part treatise in Arabic on clinical and internal medicine, at-Tibb al-Mansuri that was translated into Latin under the title Medicinalis Almansoris, was widely influential in the West throughout the Middle Ages.
Another medical genius was Abu al-Qasim Az-Zahrawi (aka Albucasis: 936-1013), an Arab from the great Arab Andalusian civilization. Az-Zahrawi is considered to be Islam's greatest medieval surgeon who single-handedly shaped European surgical procedures until the Renaissance. His 30-part medical encyclopedia, At-Tasrif ("The Method"), which contained over 200 surgical medical instruments he personally designed, was a surgical treatise that had a tremendous influence on Western medicine. Translated into Latin in the 12th century by the Italian scholar Gerard of Cremona, at-Tasrif stood for nearly 500 years as the leading textbook on surgery in Europe, preferred for its concise lucidity even to the great works of the classical Greek medical authority Galen of Pergamum.
The second is an encyclopedia by the name of al-Qanun fi at-Tibb ("The Canon of Medicine"), the most famous single book in the history of medicine in both East and West. The Canon became the medical authority not only in the Islamic world where it was used as a major reference until the 19th century, but also in the Western world where it was used for more than 500 years.
The Arabs were the first to establish phamacology and pharmacies. They also made advances in Vetinary medicine and zoology. Thier works in philosphy were also the basis for some of the Western philosophers. There were also great advances in Literature, Art and Music in the Muslim Empire.
The Muslim Empire of this period was tolerant and a haven for men of science.
Now remember that while "Chrisitianty" is declaring men of science heretics and burning them or imprisioning them or burning thier works and silencing them. Also review what happend after the Spanish won thier independence from the Arabs... The "Inquisition"...wow that was a great step forward wasnt it?
This is mighty amazing that they discovered this while themselves coming out of the desert not too long ago during that period...while we had the dark ages in the west.
I myself along with other Americans have little knowledge of the muslim world.
I was lucky in the fact that while deployed I had the chance to work and talk with muslims and make a visit to the the city of Samarkand. The Architecture is mind boggling.
In this modern city there were not only mosques but synagogues and churches.
Now sometime around 1406 the Muslim empire collapsed like so many others before the west enjoyed a leap in technology. Where did some of the foundations for this leap come from? From the Arabs who had established the groundwork in mathematics and science and other areas. The wars and losses to the Crusaders may have opened the doors for this period of enlightenment to end when a bunch of Muslims who were just as mean spirited as the Western Chrisitans took over things ending a great period of learning and tolerance...
wow 600 years ago and today we still use stuff that the Arabs had a hand in developing
That which we are ignorant of we tend to fear.
Sorry, I should have said hundreds, I am well aware of their introduction and use of algebra. Everything else still stands. This is a gun board and Im out of this discussion . If you want to debate someone try here http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm since he knows more about the religion than me (being a muslim). Hell, I'm an infidel and proud of it. To them I am but dust.
Better yet, Try this http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum.htm
Better yet, Try this http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum.htm
Looked at it.....
I remeber a talk with a Congressman at a dinner party once, he told me never trust a politician.
Well I would say that never beleive all the stuff you read on the Internet without filtering it.
All one part complained about the Muslims being totally worthless, poor, ignorant and non contributors to the world
Seems to me the US should take a piece of that blame because of our foriegn policy.... After all we support the regimes in Saudi, Jordan, Pakistan, Egypt and some others.
We say we want Democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan yet turn a blind eye to the lack of Democracy in these other countries. whats up with that?
I do beleive that there are many Arab Americans who contribute peacefully to our society on a daily basis as doctors, lawyers, ect...... As there are in other Western Countries.
If you tune out the voices of the Muslims who do not beleive in terrorism and tar them with the same brush eventually you will get what you ask for. I dont think I want to wage a war with all 1.2 billion Muslims do you? The problem we face is to nullify the effect of the fundamentalist fringe groups and to come up with social reform in the other Arab Countries.
I remeber a talk with a Congressman at a dinner party once, he told me never trust a politician.
Well I would say that never beleive all the stuff you read on the Internet without filtering it.
All one part complained about the Muslims being totally worthless, poor, ignorant and non contributors to the world
Seems to me the US should take a piece of that blame because of our foriegn policy.... After all we support the regimes in Saudi, Jordan, Pakistan, Egypt and some others.
We say we want Democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan yet turn a blind eye to the lack of Democracy in these other countries. whats up with that?
I do beleive that there are many Arab Americans who contribute peacefully to our society on a daily basis as doctors, lawyers, ect...... As there are in other Western Countries.
If you tune out the voices of the Muslims who do not beleive in terrorism and tar them with the same brush eventually you will get what you ask for. I dont think I want to wage a war with all 1.2 billion Muslims do you? The problem we face is to nullify the effect of the fundamentalist fringe groups and to come up with social reform in the other Arab Countries.
shootinstudent
New member
My sentiments exactly.
molonlabe....have you read through that site???
hahaha, those testimonials are a real hoot. Most of them are pretty obvious fakes. Check out this one: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Sunshine50910.htm
The son of a Mullah is illiterate at 30, but a 16 year old girl is so well versed that she can write without any serious spelling errors in english!?
This site is exactly the kind of propaganda I was referring to when I said that Rebar was getting all of his info from unreliable sources.
Folks, there's a reason why these kinds of websites aren't taken seriously by most...and it's not a "media conspiracy" to silence opposing views.
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Hey, Is this thread still open? What does it have to do with Guns?
There is no God but Yahweh, and Moses is his messenger. So there......
Ignoring this for some reason?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks
There is no God but Yahweh, and Moses is his messenger. So there......
Ignoring this for some reason?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks
It's been clearly established, although Islamic authorities try hard to suppress, that "allah" the god is not the Judeo/Christian god, but a former-pagan moon god:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm
Which is ok, I guess, but to claim that "allah" is the same god as Moses and Jesus is clearly deception. Islam is a whole different religion, with parts taken from the Judeo/Christian tradition, not a continuation of the tradition as Islam trys to claim.
It's an important distiction, because Islam claims allah is the one true god, the Judeo/Christians claim "god" as the one true god, which means there's conflict at the most basic level.
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