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Chambered round or not when carrying?
- Thread starter sight-on
- Start date
SwampYankee
New member
SwampYankee, that was a pretty cheap shot.
But I included a smiley face!
I don't really think anyone should feel obliged to carry with one in the chamber, just because that is the prevailing viewpoint. If you prefer not to chamber a round, then that is every bit your right just as much as it is your right to choose whether or not to carry in the first place. And I agree with catfishman's first statement - that if someone's got the drop on me, I'm not going to try to draw my gun to save my wallet and all $12.78 that it currently holds. In that scenario, which seems to be a large percentage of all BG-with-gun situations, round in chamber vs. empty chamber won't make that big a difference, in my opinion. Certainly there are many possible scenarios where one would benefit from having a round chambered, but it is each individual's own decision, based on their experiences and their priorities.
This seems to be almost everyone's opinion. It seems like an extreme overstatement to me. Makes me wonder why so many well informed gun owners feel this way. Not that they carry with a chambered round, but that they think it is stupid or crazy not to.
I doubt most real world gunfights resemble the beginning of "Gunsmoke". If someone has a gun aimed at you I doubt you should draw yours. If they don't the 1/2 second it takes to rack a slide probably won't matter much. There are exceptions but they would be just that, exceptions.
Here are my reasons for never having an empty chamber.
1. So my carry gun is always ready to fire
2. So that there is no question about #1
3. So my time to engagement is reduced
4. So I can fight with one arm (mind you I do practice one arm reloading)
5. So that I can be ready to fire without the bad guy knowing (racking slide)
6. So I can avoid racking the slide (which could lead to a malfunction)
7. So that I have one less thing to do or to think about while under stress
I'm confident that with proper training it is safe to carry chamber loaded. I do it with the Glock platform sans an external safety without concern. As far as having my own gun used against me well seeing as if it comes out it is likely going to be spitting fire those odds are remote.
So I don't see any negatives and see plenty of positives.
P.S. I don't think you are stupid or crazy. I just think you are less prepared to defend yourself and are increasing the odds of a malfunction for a not so good reason.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I always carry semis chambered or a revolver. Why?
1. Once I fell down and went boom. Broke my wrist, ribs, sprained my ankle. My dominant hand. If that were in a fight, oops!
Yes, I took an intensive wounded shooter class right after. Wasn't I clever, I broke my wrist just so I could practice with my off hand and my dominant hand in a caste. So racking, etc. with one hand is in my training experience. I would like to avoid voluntarily putting myself in that position. You cannot count on having both hands. You might have to help someone with one hand, etc.
2. I've been thinking about the good old rampage nutso scenario. There you are and in comes the nutso. Well, I've run being the nutso. Draw an unload on multiple targets. You can hit 6 targets in about 3.5 to 5 seconds.
Assuming you are not immediately shot, want to be the guy drawing, racking, screwing up the rack (happens in matches all the time).
If you are unsure of your gun - practice with it or get a different gun. I wouldn't carry something I'm scared off.
In the extreme, I think of the movie Sleepy Hollow with Johnny Depp. Brom Bones shoots the Headless horseman with his flintlock rifle. Knocks him down. But HH gets up (of course). Then Brom goes to reload, rod, power horn, ball, etc. Ichabod looks at him like he's nuts and run for his life past Brom. Thus, you don't want to be screwing with your gun if you think you are facing a time critical event. Of course. unchambered carry has worked for some - because they still had time on the clock, will you?
1. Once I fell down and went boom. Broke my wrist, ribs, sprained my ankle. My dominant hand. If that were in a fight, oops!
Yes, I took an intensive wounded shooter class right after. Wasn't I clever, I broke my wrist just so I could practice with my off hand and my dominant hand in a caste. So racking, etc. with one hand is in my training experience. I would like to avoid voluntarily putting myself in that position. You cannot count on having both hands. You might have to help someone with one hand, etc.
2. I've been thinking about the good old rampage nutso scenario. There you are and in comes the nutso. Well, I've run being the nutso. Draw an unload on multiple targets. You can hit 6 targets in about 3.5 to 5 seconds.
Assuming you are not immediately shot, want to be the guy drawing, racking, screwing up the rack (happens in matches all the time).
If you are unsure of your gun - practice with it or get a different gun. I wouldn't carry something I'm scared off.
In the extreme, I think of the movie Sleepy Hollow with Johnny Depp. Brom Bones shoots the Headless horseman with his flintlock rifle. Knocks him down. But HH gets up (of course). Then Brom goes to reload, rod, power horn, ball, etc. Ichabod looks at him like he's nuts and run for his life past Brom. Thus, you don't want to be screwing with your gun if you think you are facing a time critical event. Of course. unchambered carry has worked for some - because they still had time on the clock, will you?
Since I am still a relatively newcomer here, I have not read the entire collection of threads on this topic. I have read several since being here though. I have a couple of thoughts:
1. I live in Illinois where concealed carry is illegal, although many legal experts believe that an unloaded weapon, with a loaded magazine or speed loader in a fanny pack satisfies the intent of the law. Not all LEOs or judges agree, so there is an element of risk in carrying this way, but that is another topic. When I carry in this manner is my weapon useless? I don't think so. Am I limited by not having it loaded? Absolutely. The question then is; am I better off with it at hand unloaded than without it? I believe the answer is yes, and I will take my SR9c over a brick every time.
2.
1. I live in Illinois where concealed carry is illegal, although many legal experts believe that an unloaded weapon, with a loaded magazine or speed loader in a fanny pack satisfies the intent of the law. Not all LEOs or judges agree, so there is an element of risk in carrying this way, but that is another topic. When I carry in this manner is my weapon useless? I don't think so. Am I limited by not having it loaded? Absolutely. The question then is; am I better off with it at hand unloaded than without it? I believe the answer is yes, and I will take my SR9c over a brick every time.
2.
I have seen this sentiment expressed several times. I completely agree that if one is in a situation that justifies "pullin" a weapon, being willing and able to use it better be a given, but if the "pullin" stops the threat then the "Shootin" really is not a given.Condition 1... Cocked & Locked... If I'm pullin it, I'm Shootin it...
oldcspsarge
New member
ALL police officers carry their firearms fully loaded and with a live round in the chamber.
Only actors who are posers with poor technical advisors in movies, pull their holstered firearms and chamber a round before initiating contact with bad guys !
Since all guns are always loaded...why change the assumptions ?
Only actors who are posers with poor technical advisors in movies, pull their holstered firearms and chamber a round before initiating contact with bad guys !
Since all guns are always loaded...why change the assumptions ?
If the firearm is safe so is carrying a round in the chamber. The only one I know of that wasn't safe is the older Ppk. No block to prevent discharge if dropped. PA cop had it tucked in his belt and left roll call, gun fell out and hit the floor on the hammer and discharged into his stomach.
Ok now for my own weird thing I do. My home defense gun does not have a round chambered. If I check out a noise in the night my firearm has a full mag and the slide locked back. Just a little insurance. If I see a possible threat I'll drawn down and let the slide go forward and issue a warning. Yeah in a pinch I may loose a half a second letting the slide go forward but I just feel better that way.
Ok now for my own weird thing I do. My home defense gun does not have a round chambered. If I check out a noise in the night my firearm has a full mag and the slide locked back. Just a little insurance. If I see a possible threat I'll drawn down and let the slide go forward and issue a warning. Yeah in a pinch I may loose a half a second letting the slide go forward but I just feel better that way.
danber9546
New member
Locked&loaded....all the time!
Everything I carry is always fully loaded...otherwise I don't carry it and usually won't buy it in the first place. Why even waste time and money on a gun you don't have complete confidence in? Practice with it, get training, use your head, and take care of your gun!
Everything I carry is always fully loaded...otherwise I don't carry it and usually won't buy it in the first place. Why even waste time and money on a gun you don't have complete confidence in? Practice with it, get training, use your head, and take care of your gun!
I've made several comments about this issue in other threads. Clearly it is something people are curiously passionate about, what condition other people care to have their handguns in. Lest you may have misunderstood my feelings on the subject, let me put it this way.
I have no problem with anyone carrying their handgun with a chambered round or myself either, for that matter. Mine are all safe when carried in that condition, as far as I can tell. What I do have a problem with is cocked and locked. Not everyone has a 1911 style handgun, you know, even if they should! In my case, I've always found flicking off that thumb safety (the standard thumb safety) to be difficult--and time consuming. On the other hand, I found flicking off a Walther-style safety, such as found on the earlier S&W automatics to be next to impossible. So much for progress.
There are even double action automatics that can be carried cocked and locked, if one cares to. I even think hammer down on a loaded chamber is a good carry method for a Colt Government Model (but not for any other single action automatic, including Colt Commanders). That was perfectly acceptable at one time, at least for some people, though it has apparently become much more dangerous recently, for some reason. But it is no more dangerous than lowering the hammer on a lever action rifle or on some CZ pistols, double actions even. But I make no recommendations.
I have no problem with anyone carrying their handgun with a chambered round or myself either, for that matter. Mine are all safe when carried in that condition, as far as I can tell. What I do have a problem with is cocked and locked. Not everyone has a 1911 style handgun, you know, even if they should! In my case, I've always found flicking off that thumb safety (the standard thumb safety) to be difficult--and time consuming. On the other hand, I found flicking off a Walther-style safety, such as found on the earlier S&W automatics to be next to impossible. So much for progress.
There are even double action automatics that can be carried cocked and locked, if one cares to. I even think hammer down on a loaded chamber is a good carry method for a Colt Government Model (but not for any other single action automatic, including Colt Commanders). That was perfectly acceptable at one time, at least for some people, though it has apparently become much more dangerous recently, for some reason. But it is no more dangerous than lowering the hammer on a lever action rifle or on some CZ pistols, double actions even. But I make no recommendations.
S_Constitutionist
New member
BlueTrain,
Any advice given that increases the chance of one having a ND is, in my opinion, bad advice.
Pistols that are meant to be decocked have decockers. In fact, many do. Manually lowering a hammer onto a live round is a BAD idea no matter who you are. How could it be that doing something that is inherently un-safe and falls outside of the design of the weapon, somehow makes you MORE safe?
I also find it curious that on one hand, you find safeties difficult and time consuming to disengage and yet on the other, have no problem with manually thumbing a hammer back? The downward sweep of a safety from a 1911/BHP is automatic for me after tons of hours of professional training on them. If it isnt automatic for you, you haven't trained with that weapon enough and/or it isnt right for you.
If you dont feel safe with a chambered pistol, by all means leave the chamber empty. As it has been mentioned, numerous people including many military forces advise it. This is a MUCH better alternative than manually lowering a hammer on a live round which, to my knowledge, has never been endorsed by any military/LEO outfit.
This issue in particular does get me riled up because you are potentially putting others at risk due to unsafe gun handling.
Any advice given that increases the chance of one having a ND is, in my opinion, bad advice.
Pistols that are meant to be decocked have decockers. In fact, many do. Manually lowering a hammer onto a live round is a BAD idea no matter who you are. How could it be that doing something that is inherently un-safe and falls outside of the design of the weapon, somehow makes you MORE safe?
I also find it curious that on one hand, you find safeties difficult and time consuming to disengage and yet on the other, have no problem with manually thumbing a hammer back? The downward sweep of a safety from a 1911/BHP is automatic for me after tons of hours of professional training on them. If it isnt automatic for you, you haven't trained with that weapon enough and/or it isnt right for you.
If you dont feel safe with a chambered pistol, by all means leave the chamber empty. As it has been mentioned, numerous people including many military forces advise it. This is a MUCH better alternative than manually lowering a hammer on a live round which, to my knowledge, has never been endorsed by any military/LEO outfit.
This issue in particular does get me riled up because you are potentially putting others at risk due to unsafe gun handling.
My comments were not about all automatics carried in any position, not was I giving advice, merely my own viewpoint.
Curiously, there are double action automatics without a hammer drop/de-cocker feature. Obviously they were meant to be carried hammer down on a loaded chamber. I am not questioning the intent of the designer at all. In any event, it isn't a difficult thing to do. In the case of the Colt Government model being carried hammer down on a loaded chamber, it is a simple matter to thumb the hammer back on the draw, provided it does not have an extended grip safety and that it has a normal hammer spur. You will note that a CZ-75 originally had this same style of a hammer and no de-cocker. However, other versions of Colt single action automatics are much too difficult for this operation, coming and going (that is, lowering the hammer and cocking. Also, this only works smoothly if the pistol is carried in an open top holster on the strong side, at least for me. I have no reason to recommend this carry method to anyone but for me, it is a perfectly reasonable and fast method. But as it happens, I do not have a single action Colt (not just now, that is).
All of the Colts and other single action exposed hammer automatics I've had had perfectly standard thumb safeties. They worked well enough but it always seemed like I had to "switch gears," if you follow me, to flick off the safety. That said, I still sometimes carried one that way (a Colt lightweight Commander--neat gun). I did have an extended thumb safety installed for a time but the first time I used it, I sliced open my thumb. So I don't go in for any modifications on handguns, possibly because of that painful little incident.
I will agree, however, that it can become automatic but there's just no way I could ever have had tons of professional training. I'm not one of those who went and shot a hundred rounds or more every weekend. If you can afford to do that, more power to you. I'm only a private citizen, you know and not a young one, either.
Nope, I don't feel unsafe with a chamber round, but I don't have a Glock either, nor do I have a single action automatic, but not for any of the reasons mentioned here. Glocks are virtually fool proof anyway, aren't they?
Curiously, there are double action automatics without a hammer drop/de-cocker feature. Obviously they were meant to be carried hammer down on a loaded chamber. I am not questioning the intent of the designer at all. In any event, it isn't a difficult thing to do. In the case of the Colt Government model being carried hammer down on a loaded chamber, it is a simple matter to thumb the hammer back on the draw, provided it does not have an extended grip safety and that it has a normal hammer spur. You will note that a CZ-75 originally had this same style of a hammer and no de-cocker. However, other versions of Colt single action automatics are much too difficult for this operation, coming and going (that is, lowering the hammer and cocking. Also, this only works smoothly if the pistol is carried in an open top holster on the strong side, at least for me. I have no reason to recommend this carry method to anyone but for me, it is a perfectly reasonable and fast method. But as it happens, I do not have a single action Colt (not just now, that is).
All of the Colts and other single action exposed hammer automatics I've had had perfectly standard thumb safeties. They worked well enough but it always seemed like I had to "switch gears," if you follow me, to flick off the safety. That said, I still sometimes carried one that way (a Colt lightweight Commander--neat gun). I did have an extended thumb safety installed for a time but the first time I used it, I sliced open my thumb. So I don't go in for any modifications on handguns, possibly because of that painful little incident.
I will agree, however, that it can become automatic but there's just no way I could ever have had tons of professional training. I'm not one of those who went and shot a hundred rounds or more every weekend. If you can afford to do that, more power to you. I'm only a private citizen, you know and not a young one, either.
Nope, I don't feel unsafe with a chamber round, but I don't have a Glock either, nor do I have a single action automatic, but not for any of the reasons mentioned here. Glocks are virtually fool proof anyway, aren't they?
Aguila Blanca
Staff
There is one: The Israeli Defense Force (IDF). The "Israeli Draw" technique is their technique, and it involves drawing and racking the slide to load the first round. But ...stevelyn said:To my knowledge, there is NOT any reputable training doctrine that teaches or advocates defensive carry of a handgun with an empty chamber.
... there's a valid tactical reason for their use of the technique. IDF agents may change weapons from assignment to assignment, or day to day. One pistol may have a thumb safety, the next one won't. So they practice a universal technique that works the same with all the guns they're likely to be carrying.
And they are good at it. I've heard it reported more than twice that an average IDF agent can execute an Israeli draw and have his loaded gun on target faster than an average American can draw a 1911, release the thumb safety, and bring the gun on target.
If I see a possible threat I'll drawn down and let the slide go forward and issue a warning. Yeah in a pinch I may loose a half a second letting the slide go forward but I just feel better that way.
Remember that the initial chambering of a round increases the chances of a hangup on most autos. The slide doesn't have the speed that it does while firing and then has to overcome the first round of a full mag, the hardest one to get out.
S_Constitutionist
New member
Blue Train,
My issue wasnt pertaining to how the gun was carried, or even drawn. My concern is the process of getting the gun into a state with a loaded chamber and the hammer down. The only way to do that is to chamber a round, then pull the trigger while holding the hammer and easing it forward... All while praying to whomever it is you pray to that it doesnt slip. That would going against the design of the gun and it is dangerous. No matter what, you are risking a ND and violating one of the cardinal rules of gun safety. My question was, how could this make one more safe?
I'm no expert, but I know of no such pistol that wasnt designed to either be "safed" (SAO such as 1911s and BHPs, some FNX's & Sigs, etc) OR decocked using the safety or a decocker (DA/SA guns) from the cocked state. Many DA/SA guns they are provided with a safety instead of a decocker. In these cases, the safety also serves to decock the gun (Bersa,etc) or they safe the gun with the hammer cocked and operate SA with a double strike capability; DA/SA (some CZ-82s, etc). I dont think I've ever heard of a SAO gun with a decocker.... But, I suppose that stranger things have happened.
My issue wasnt pertaining to how the gun was carried, or even drawn. My concern is the process of getting the gun into a state with a loaded chamber and the hammer down. The only way to do that is to chamber a round, then pull the trigger while holding the hammer and easing it forward... All while praying to whomever it is you pray to that it doesnt slip. That would going against the design of the gun and it is dangerous. No matter what, you are risking a ND and violating one of the cardinal rules of gun safety. My question was, how could this make one more safe?
I'm no expert, but I know of no such pistol that wasnt designed to either be "safed" (SAO such as 1911s and BHPs, some FNX's & Sigs, etc) OR decocked using the safety or a decocker (DA/SA guns) from the cocked state. Many DA/SA guns they are provided with a safety instead of a decocker. In these cases, the safety also serves to decock the gun (Bersa,etc) or they safe the gun with the hammer cocked and operate SA with a double strike capability; DA/SA (some CZ-82s, etc). I dont think I've ever heard of a SAO gun with a decocker.... But, I suppose that stranger things have happened.
imthegrumpyone
New member
Look at my signature, if you don't have one chambered, your gun's not loaded.
To Mr. S_Constitutionist, I was specifically referring to CZ pistols that are double action/single action, yet do not have a de-cocking feature. I had not been thinking of any single action pistols that had a de-cocking feature, although I believe Sauer made one in the 1930s. The de-cocking lever (it had a separate safety lever) also would cock it again but I've never handled one.
The original US Army manual that I have actually instructs users to lower the hammer on a live round, though I would hardly recommend that to anyone else but anyone is free to use that method as far as I'm concerned. True, it does require care but that's true of all aspects of gun handling. It is when you think something is really safe that you begin to have accidents. The same manual, by the way, instructs users of revolvers to have an empty chamber under the hammer.
The original US Army manual that I have actually instructs users to lower the hammer on a live round, though I would hardly recommend that to anyone else but anyone is free to use that method as far as I'm concerned. True, it does require care but that's true of all aspects of gun handling. It is when you think something is really safe that you begin to have accidents. The same manual, by the way, instructs users of revolvers to have an empty chamber under the hammer.
To the OP
One of the preeminent law enforcement officers of the last century, carried a Colt Official Police with only one cartridge and it wasn't in his pistol. It was in his front shirt pocket! In my opinion, after carefully considering your question, given much time and training, you will be every bit as effective and competent as he was.
One of the preeminent law enforcement officers of the last century, carried a Colt Official Police with only one cartridge and it wasn't in his pistol. It was in his front shirt pocket! In my opinion, after carefully considering your question, given much time and training, you will be every bit as effective and competent as he was.