Chalk one up for the good guys

One last thing.....

John are you for real?

Do you own a home? Have a family? Love life? own a gun? ever shot a firearm?

If the suspect was not armed when he first broke in don't you think on his way to the residents room he sure could pick up a dozen house found items to kill or injure the owner with.?.... and no I won't tell you the first 12 that come to mind - figure it out on your own.


I think you just wrote your response to stir up a hornet nest......well, it worked and I think your getting stung real good...... :D

as far as a civil suit.......... you must either be pond scum or one of them lawyers who feed the pond scum......... sorry just seems like I might know your kind......and your sad if that is how you feel....... Yea - I had someone like that try to take my money once....... well, they got nothing :D
 
He heard the glass break, knew someone was in the house, and 'laid in wait' (granted, my terminology). No warning shot, no attempt to avoid the shooting, scare the kid off or anything. Ambush.
Click to expand...

Seems to me that the home owner used common sense (my terminology) and stayed put vice "laid in wait." Attempting to clear a house even (if not especially) your own is a bad idea.

Warning shots, contrary to the big and small screens, are not only a bad idea, but in many jursidictions may very well be against the law.

The home owner had no idea that the intruder was a teenager, but I don't believe that really makes a difference. Ya reckon the murderers at Colombine High School were capable of inflicting serious bodily harm and death?

Denny
 
I'm actually kinda shocked at the law in Virginia. After all, all I ever hear is how "screwed up" California is, etc. Here, even in the Peoples Republik of California, this is a justified shooting.

You can shoot someone who forcibly breaks into your home. The law presumes the person breaking into your house is going to cause you, your family, etc death and/or great bodily injury. For all of you non believers:

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
 
I am so annoyed that Michigan is a "retreat" state. You can't use any force against someone in your home unless you are clearly in imminent danger for your life. Someone comes into your house with a baseball bat but doesn't threaten you with it? Figure the best way to get over to your neighbor's house and call the cops from there. You have an "obligation to leave" unless you are obviously not permitted to do so by the perp. One of my instructors used the hypothetical of someone coming into your house with a baseball bat, coming into your bedroom, and ignoring you while they rummage through your stuff. If they're blocking the doorway and preventing an easy exit, you have to open a window and leave that way. If there are no windows, you might be able to make a case for saying that you felt you were in danger.

This attitude is amazing considering how generally level-headed this state is otherwise.

I don't have any cases to reference, but all my law and firearms training here has said the same thing.
 
Back in the old (as in olden) days a man's home was considered his castle. Even back when I was a leo home invasion was called breaking & entering with intent (a felony). A man had the right to protect himself, his family and his home. Words mean things and when the USA invaded Normandy we took along some guns and some bullets because the intent of our invasion was to kill a few people. Somewhere along the way morals slipped and the laws of many states, were taken over or mis-interpreted by lefty law makers, judges & the ACLU.

A man no longer has the right to protect his home because too many times this present day society seems to think the BG's are the victims. It makes me shake my head and be glad I'm 69, and hopefully won't be here when the sh*t really hits the fan.

Break into my house and I'm shootin. We can talk about it later!
 
Politely disagreeing.

He should be arrested and tried for manslaughter.

He effectively ambushed the kid - no warnings - no nothing - just waited and then shot him with intent to kill (head shot).

Not reading anything into the story but going on the info that was posted - he should go to jail and then prison.

Plus, I hope he's got a pot full of money saved up to pay attorneys and then give to the kids family after they win a civil suit against him for wrongful death.

One of the good guys? Hardly.
Click to expand...

First, allow me to say that referring to the attacker (that's right, attacker) as a child is incorrect. He gave up that privelige when he broke into a man's home.
Second, let me address the "ambush". It would have been veiwed even worse, by the courts and the media, if this man had actively sought out this individual, i.e. "clearing" rooms with gun in hand.
My third point is based on your statement that he should "go to jail then prison". Did the attacker do nothing wrong? If I do as you did, and make no assumptions, then the post says the attacker went directly to the bedroom. If that is the case, I can only infer that he broke into that house to commit rape or murder, not robbery. That means that, even based soley on the information in the initial post, the man was still in the right for defending himself and his wife from rape and murder.
As the title states, I am just politely disagreeing, no attack or personal argument intended. If anyone disagrees with any of my points, please feel free to comment. This is just the way I see it based on the information given.
 
Last edited:
I still feel (whether 'legal' in the state or not) to shoot someone for simply breaking into your home is paramount to manslaughter - or worse.

err... what's your address, do you have any nice things? If I'm in the neighborhood... I promise I'll only take things, so you won't do anything right???? ;)

Elmo, I bet ya' cap my butt, despite the post.

As I said, he may well get away with it legally depending on the state laws, but the civil suit is going to tear him a new one…


If he can articulate just a lil' bit he's going to be fine criminally and otherwise. The factors as outlined here, are a far cry from those FEW instances where bad guys cash in. Yeah, those instances make the papers, but most dead bad guys families aren't living it up on the poor shlub who defended himself.

Try this through feined terror and tearful eyes:

"It was dark, all I could see was his shadow coming towards our bed... his hand was outstretched ( can't tell if it wasn't with the face wound)... I figured he was going to use he used on the window on me and my poor wife....before he came into our room thought I heard him in the kitchen he could have had one of our knives or a gun of his own!!!...etc....etc...If your real good ya' can vomit or wet yourself for effect. :eek:

As long as he doesn't sound like Dirty Harry he'll be fine. Also, I'll bet you a dollar the kid was high or drunk or at least tests positive , from here it only gets easier for the GG.
 
Well, to each his own guys - it would be a very boring world if we all thought the same... Although I doubt if we will ever hear the ultimate outcome – I’d bet the farm on a unlawful death suit.

No, I was not trying to stir up a hornets nest (I really could care less who responds and who doesn't) but I do have a stubborn habit of speaking my mind (without resorting to name calling - which BTW is a sign of a limited intellect)) – it’s a habit I believe I’ve earned. Don’t agree? Frankly, tough. Go watch TeeWee and let the adults have a discussion.

Good or bad, for all you Rambo and Clint Eastwood Wanna-A-Be's out there, the day of shoot first and ask questions later – shoot ‘em on the porch and drag ‘em into the house – rig a trap on the basement door with a shotgun, etc., - - are gone – good riddance.

Welcome to the new "PC" (Politically Correct) world – for better or worse it’s here to stay.

:rolleyes:
 
"Good or bad, for all you Rambo and Clint Eastwood Wanna-A-Be's out there".
Click to expand...
Not here Bro. Just folks who know the law and have a little pride and some basic self-preservation instincts.

You never did answer as to whether you own your own home and have a family to protect.

U.F.O.
 
I'm in Michigan...

I live in the second largest city in Michigan. Homeowners are required to have window locks installed on all windows as well as have sash limiter locks or pins that only let the sash open six to eight inches when engaged. There is no way for me to quickly retreat out of a window without placing myself in danger from an attacker. You are also required to have combination storm/screens in place or just screens if you have thermal windows during the Summer months. My friend had a BG slide through is kitchen window after he removed the screen from the frame and reached inside to remove the sash limiter pin to gain entry. It was a smaller sash that had an approved pin (double headed masonary nail) . My friend was first alerted when he heard the sash fall and the BG disturb some dirty dishes in the sink. His bedroom was off the kitchen. He responded by pointing a twelve gauge pump at the young intruder while racking the gun closed on an empty chamber. He forgot to grab some shells when he went for his shotgun. The BG broke glass and wind as he dove head first out of the window falling to the ground outside. It was about a six foot dive with a landing onto broken glass. My friend said that the BG seemed in a rush to leave. My question is: Can I keep my gun pointed on a criminal as I abandon my home.
 
Good or bad, for all you Rambo and Clint Eastwood Wanna-A-Be's out there, the day of shoot first and ask questions later – shoot ‘em on the porch and drag ‘em into the house – rig a trap on the basement door with a shotgun, etc., - - are gone – good riddance.

Nobody is suggesting messing with the crime scene or cover ups. All I say is that you convey your fear enthusiastically to the police.

If shooting someone who, breaks into my house and comes into my bedroom, while me and my wife are asleep makes me Dirty Harry, so be it! I am going to react as if my life is threatened, because it is to the best of MY KNOWLEDGE AT THAT POINT IN TIME!!! You have to operate on the assumption that he's there to do you harm and stop him. Why, because if he is there to do me harm and I give him that extra courtesy of a "hey you.. don't move, I've got a gun" (crap) and he is quicker and or luckier than me, I die and worse my entire family is at his disposal. There are no instant replays or do- overs Elmo. I honestly mean this sincerely w/o trying to be a wise-apple, if the BG is SO important, or your fear of civil or criminal charges so great, perhaps you are not a good candidate for a self defense weapon.

When I was young, a family friend(a real nice gentle) guy disarmed a rapist and couldn't pull the trigger. He had the weapon taken from him and was killed with it. Now you might say that's different, that was a violent act already, well action is faster than reaction. Don't think you can challenge bad guys verbally in your house in the dark not knowing what they carry or if they're alone and be succesful. If surprise is your advantage USE IT!

Personally, I am going to err on the side of caution. Cautiously, protecting my family that is. If he REALLY was just there to take my property we'll never know. I will however be able to live another day with my person and family intact. The BG's life or family is not my worry.
 
You know John, you may have a good point. The guy should have gotten out of bed and at least seen who the guy was, it could have been Santa Clause. And after seeing that it was some poor hungry kid down on his luck, just needing a little cash for a nickel bag, he should have invited him to stay awhile. Maybe fixed him a sandwich and some warm milk and given him a stern fatherly talk about not getting to bed early enough. Maybe even smoked a big fat doobie with him. I mean really, why would one be afraid of anybody now days. Crime is but a fading memory. You know it would probably be a good idea to just leave the front door open at night so when friends I haven't met yet come to see me in the middle of the night, they don't have to break my windows and maybe take a chance at cutting themselves. Thank goodness I can come here and seek advice from politically correct liberals such as yourself. It keeps me from doing stupid things and upsetting the balance of nature and the flow of the universe, and crap like that. I must admit I did do a stupid thing once, I voted Republican. Can you ever forgive me!! You're not going to sue me are you?
 
Sorry, I'm still shocked about the VA thing, now Michigan???

Anyways, yeah, you can bet your bottom dollar the guy will be sued for wrongful death. However, that is what you have home owner's insurance for. Not to mention, its what I and others, have been harping about on these internet boards.

All people worry about is the criminal portion. The criminal portion is an easy out; it really is. Look at my earlier post about California. I am PRESUMED to be in the right, if someone breaks into my home. Period. Doesn't have to do anything else, other then that.

Of course, the civil aspect is totally different. One reason I suggest people take that next 400 dollars for their whiz bang dohickey for their guns and spend it on a competent criminal defense attorney. I hate attorney's as much as the next guy, probably more being a cop, however they ARE necessary.

If you have ALOT of money and ALOT of "stuff." You might want to even look into a million dollar umbrella insurance policy. I have one. It costs me, but its nice to have. I don't want my retirement given away to some 16 year old burglar's family, because I shot him.

A few years back, at my wife's agency, there was pursuit. The pursuit terminated and the suspect had a caratoid placed on him and he died. 7.5 million dollars awarded to the family of a transient, who hasn't seen this family in over 23 years. The families statement: "Well, we always meant to get back together with Johnny...Just never found the time." Of course, they found the time when the $$$$ signs went up.

Firearms training is an all around gig guys. Make sure you cover your butts in all directions.
 
You know what, I'm with Bullrock. Anyone that breaks down my door or busts through a window is gonna get it if the presence of a gun doesn't scare them off. I'm tired of reading about these lawyer-made scare tactics.

Sometimes I think that book is more anti-defense than anything else, even though they consider it pretty much 'mandatory' reading if you own a gun.
 
Phil,

I live in Virginia and I can asure you, the law has not been accurately portrayed in this thread. Yes, Virginia has a provision in the law that if you are in a public place and another person makes clear an intention to do you some kind of harm, you must retreat if at all possible. A good law. Basically, if you are not doing anything to bring the situation about, leave the situation before it becomes violent, if you can , and call the police. This does not apply if you are in your own home minding your own business. You don't have to run through a wall or dive through a window. And the Michigan thing. I would bet there is some misinterpretation there also. If somebody comes into my house by force with a baseball bat. I, without a shadow of doubt, could articulate a good reason to use force on this individual. As I said in a previous post, if you live in Virginia or have an interest in VA law, get a copy of the current VA criminal law and read the code and the corresponding court cases that have established legal precedents on these issues.
 
You guys who are so sure about these people being sued....What exactly are you basing these blanket statements on? I KNOW it's not experience, so what is it??? Someone else told you? You saw it on Judge Judy? What??? Why is it so hard to provide a link to a newspaper article that tells of a homeowner losing (or even being sued in the first place) for shooting a burglar in their bedroom at night?
 
You guys who are so sure about these people being sued....What exactly are you basing these blanket statements on? I KNOW it's not experience, so what is it??? Someone else told you? You saw it on Judge Judy? What??? Why is it so hard to provide a link to a newspaper article that tells of a homeowner losing (or even being sued in the first place) for shooting a burglar in their bedroom at night?

Exactly Frank, yes it does happen but not in the vast majority of cases. The cases that DO result in huge lawsuits become news and people assume that's the norm. This case,IMHO is not one of the cases tt will make news as a jury award of huge $$$s.

BGs come out on the losing end of things everyday, mst of them and or the relatives will never see a dime or even sue. Mush like car accidents, the vast majority DON'"T entail huge suits, but to here some people talk, all you need to do is get rear-ended once and you can retire. The "sue everyone syndrome" is bad but it's not near as bad a some portray.

Even as a police officers, we get sued more often than John Q Citizen, but most of us have hundreds or thousands of run-ins with the BGs and at most we see a handful of suits in our careers. The vast majority of those suits are settled for small $ ammounts, just so the municipalitly doens't have to take a chance in court or generate more press.
 
EKA,

Thank you for clearing that up. I couldn't believe VA would make you do something like that. I mean geez, if we can get away with it here...

FrankDrebin,

Most people who are sued for wrongful death, never even make it to court. Their homeowner insurances make a token payment, the bad guys suck it up, the lawyers take their cut, and life continues.

Its the 1-2% which actually end up in a court room you have to worry about. You can think I am full of it, all you want, however I've been in the court rooms, federal and state lawsuits. They aint fun...I'm just giving you my two cents worth.
 
Code: 
for all you Rambo and Clint Eastwood Wanna-A-Be's out there

None here that I see. I'm what you could call a "wanna live", and to expect someone to absolutely know what the intent is of a person breaking into another's home in the middle of the night is ludicrous. To charge them with a crime for defense of their lives and property is a crime by the state, IMO.

To allow a civil suit to be brought against the homeowner is so far removed from the principles of the rights of human beings that I don't know where to begin, unless there is something additional to the story not posted.

Do you really expect people to wait until they are dying or assaulted before they begin to do something about it??? Where does this thought process come from? Tell me where in any sensible law I am required to bow down to the demands of someone breaking into my home? Is this a victim martyr thing?

Please tell us you are not some over ambitious district attorney trying to get elected to something???
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top