CCW vs. Unlicensed Carry?

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Your first obligation is to yourself and to your own irreplaceable life, regardless of public opinion or the "image" of gunowners as a group. You have a moral right to life. You have a moral right to do whatever it takes to preserve that life as long as you do not deliberately infringe on the rights of others. That is what the Founders envisioned, that is what they thought they were creating. If you live in a jurisdiction that will not allow you to carry a weapon to defend yourself with, you owe it to yourself to get out. I do not travel to other states that do not recognize my CCW. That limits me to Texas, Arkansas, Tennesee, Kentucky, Indiana, Michigan, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah and Alaska. When I travel to WY, UT or ID and must travel thru Colorado, I avoid Denver and only stop for fuel and the restroom, period. The other states don't want me or my business or else they would recognize my right to life. The same goes for those businessses that post those no weapons signs. I'm happy to allow them all to suffer the consequences of their ideas.

I have been working in prisons long enough, have heard of enough actual court cases from firsthand participants to know that it is very hard to get a criminal conviction out of a defendant who is willing to fight their case all the way thru a jury trial. Unless you happen to live in a really totalitarian local, or unless you can be intimidated into surrendering your right to remain silent, or be intimidated into a plea bargain; the courts generally don't have the resources to go to trial over trivial matters. Carrying a weapon illegally is a trivial matter in any half sane person's book when compared to murder, rape, robbery, burglary and assault. Remember, nationally only about five percent of prison inmates actually went to trial. The other 95% plea bargained. Use this fact to your advantage, keep your head and refuse to be intimidated. Above all, fight for your right to life!
 
WD--I do the same here (IL is another of the "No CCW for any reason, at all, screw you, have a nice day, sincerely, The Gub'ment" states.) But I'm rapidly running out of excuses. Currently I'm trying to talk the fiancee into moving out of state when we graduate--our college is close to the Iowa border and I heard somewhere that CCW's are possible there, though I doubt they're easy to get.
Personally, I'm studying to be a teacher and I hear a lot of districts check for this sort of thing, so I don't carry. Besides, I'm not really good enough with a handgun to justify it--carrying it is one thing, doing an unjustified shoot or hitting a bystander because you suck is a whole different thing.
Another thought that's come to me was to think about changing professions--something a bit more active than teaching school. I've considered law enforcement briefly but I don't know. I've also thought about firefighting--I may volunteer wherever I end up teaching and see what happens.
Bottom line is, like everyone said, if it's at all possible to follow the law that's always best. If you have no choice, well, that speaks for itself, doesn't it?
 
WD, if I get arrested, face a small jail term and a large fine, my son still has a father. My wife still has a husband. If I lose my right to own guns and vote, my son still has a father and my wife still has a husband.
But if I need a gun and don't have it, and wind up dead at the hands of some drugged-out criminal, my son WON'T have his father, and my wife WON'T have her husband. I WON'T have a job, I WON'T have guns, and I won't have ANYTHING else.
I think you need to rethink your priorities.
 
Yeah, but the liability is still not as hard to bear as an eternity in the grave. The sentence imposed by the judge provides an excellent argument against mandatory minimum sentences, another darling issue of the NRA and republicans. Had that state had mandatory minimums, the judge would have been required by law to give the defendant the minimum required by law. You can bet that it would be several years in prison.

My point is, the law is a two edged sword. In today's legal environment it cuts both the guilty and the innocent. So, be careful what you ask for, you may get it.
 
Well, everyone has to judge the situation for themselves, and be smart about it, but if you're an honest citizen going about your business, I would bet that your chances of getting tagged for carrying illegally would be just about as great as your chances of finding yourself in Condition Red. Both percentages are probably pretty small. Anything can happen of course.

If push came to shove I'd rather have to take my chances of having to fight my way out of jail, cause I sure can't fight my way out of the grave. Government can't grant rights or take them away; but we can sure as shootin roll over like whipped dogs.

Given that, I owe it to my children and my wife, who depend upon me for so many things, to not allow myself to be in a position where some scumbag plays God and puts me six feet under. In such an instance, my life is worth more than that person's, and I'd hate to leave a widowed and orphaned family behind because my government had scared me into complete and utter submission. Besides, I'm just not interested in being a victim.

Whatever happened to liberty?
 
Nah, just be a good Jew and hurry up to that oven! Schneller!

If you are defenseless and something happens, how do you live with watching people die and not saving them? Ms.Hupp had that rare (in all ways) pleasure.

If caught with, you still have an option of taking out the enemy trying to do the catching. If caught without, no such option...

I don't know about you, but I have more respect for someone who's bagged a friend of the people than for a pacifist. Fewer of those friends left for the rest of us.
 
For crying out loud, what's all this about the govt taking our guns if they have a list, like a CCW? Don't you people trust our democracy?! These leaders, these politicians, DAs, LEOs, know the Constitution and know how to rightly apply it. We live in a benevolent country where all of our legislative and legal employees care about people, NOT taking away anybody's ability to carry a tool of self protection. Sure it happened in Germany at one point in history; and Russia, Bosnia, S. Africa, N. Africa, and a few others. But THOSE were issolated incidences in countries with bad govts. Not good ones and good people like our own. If you can't trust them, well I don't know how you expect them to trust YOU to carry with out their permission! Obey the law, because if you don't have your papers, you will be punished!

After all, there's been far more murders from theives, than there's been from ANY govts that had a list of gun owners and used it. Does anyone have the guts to prove me wrong?!!!!!!

"Better tried by 12, than carried by 6!" Give me a break. Can't you come up with a better reason than that?
 
Sorry Equalizer, that you don't like the platitude doesn't mean it isn't true. Would you rather be dead or face the possibility of a conviction for illegally carrying a gun? Particularly when as a first offense you most likely would not get significant jail time?
Yes, you could no longer legally own guns, and you would have a mark on your record. I think I could live with that, as long as I could LIVE with that.
Anyway, I hope to hell I never have to make that choice---I have a permit to carry and will have one as long as it is legal.
 
Tongue-in-cheek alert. I think Equalizer is going for sarcasm.

On the point of retiring enemy personnel if found illegally armed: I don't know that I would or would not try it. I doubt that having a normal day turn into war till the end of likely short life would be to my taste. I also suspect that, here and now, I'd have much better chances in court.

Unfortunately, I grew up in USSR, where that exact line of thinking led straight behind barbed wire. Makes me wonder if I am overly optimistic.

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Cornered Rat
http://dd-b.net/RKBA RKBA posters
http://dd-b.net/olegv Portrait, nature photos
 
Ok, here's my uninformed opinion. If you want to carry, and it is physically possible to get a permit, you certainly should. If you can't get one, you should consider your circumstances. If there is little crime in your area, the consequences of detection probably outweigh a potential benefit. Of course, it's impossible to generalize. If a person in a high crime area carries illegally because they have no other choice, I obviously couldn't condemn them, though it's certainly a bad situation. I know my state allows unliscensed open carry, so if your state does the same, could be a viable alternative.

[This message has been edited by BTR (edited October 01, 1999).]
 
Gwinny, or should that be Mr.Pooh? :-)

Iowa is a may issue state. Some Counties are impossible or next to impossible to get a CCL in others, its set up on a shall issue "type" system. It is up to the County Sheriff. However when you get a CCL it is valid State wide. My wife can carry legally in the Capital City (DesMoines) but almost none of the people who live in DesMoines can't get a CCL. That make great sense right?
I understand the plight of honest people unable to Legally carry the means to protect themselves. And I have carried in areas of this contry where it was not legal for me to do so, because I could not make arangements to make it legal. Just remember that as with any other form of civil disobediance, you may have to face the consequenses for your acts. Us good guys can't be every where and sometimes it's hard to sort the good people out from the bad.
 
All,

I was playing "liberals advocate" for a moment to get the brain juices flowing again.

Cornered Rat,

The smooth yellow grip panels on your 1911 are beautiful. What kind of wood are they? You said that you grew up in the USSR. Have you learned anything from that experience that could enlighten us as to the possible drawbacks of getting a CCW, or do you think it is a good idea if its easily obtainable? I promise not to jump all over you. ;)

BTR,
I'd like to agree about the point about the chances of getting caught outweighing the chances of getting shot, in crime free neighborhoods. In fact, depending on ones work area, this makes the issue even harder for some than others. I've been shot at in two occasions and threatened on two more occasions by at the end of a barrel (although one was at a distance at night when we were camping). In every case, I was in some of the most crime free rural neighborhoods and areas in the county. In each case, believe it or not, I was minding my own business, not causing any trouble, and not doing anything that would provoke anyone (with the exception of a man going out of his way to tell us, 3 teenagers w/a boom box, to turn the music down or he was going to shoot us. We were not previously warned, but the 6" barrelled .357 I would guess, that we looked down was very motivating from the start). In each case, I never expected the threat of violence to come my way in the least. During those years, one of the local judges was a anti gun political activist. He vocally oppossed supreme court ruling that repealed the State unconstitutionality of restrictions on unconcealed carry. He would not even issue CCW to LEOs. That's changed now and he is now one of our state supreme court justices. Here in the east, although its legal in this state, open carry w/out CCW will probably get you arrested. Its not socially acceptable around here unfortunately. Every body must make there own choices, and live with the benefits and consequences. I think your points are valid, but its impossible to always know when/if lethal force will be brought against you. I wish there was a good way to always see it coming and a good, crime free place on earth.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
CORNERED RAT YOU WHITE TRASH PIECE OF DOG**** HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT JEWS GOING TO OVENS ITS 2000 YEARS OF CHRISTIAN TEACHINGS OF HATRED WHICH CAUSED THAT NOT A ****ING LACK OF LUGERS AMONG GERMAN JEWS YOU IGNORANT MAGGOT. AND BTW..WTF IS "SKORZENY" NICK DOING HERE IS THIS A NAZI WEBSITE? ANYONE IN THE USA WHO USES A NAME OF HITLERS FAVORITE SOLDIER DOESN'T BELONG IN THIS COUNTRY THATS AN SS OFFICER AND LATER HEAD OF ODESSA AND SPARE ME THE WAFFEN SS WERE JUST SOLDIERS DONT FORGET THE MALMEDY MASSACRE? LIDICE? ORADOUR? MOVE TO GERMANY WHERE YA BELONG NAZI MAGGOTS.
 
Thanks to all for your posts on this subject. The response seems to have been of value to many others as well.

However, since the tone and subject have greatly veered off course, I'd like to request that the moderator or administrator close this thread. Please do so.

Thanks again to those of you who posted constructive and relevant responses.
 
BlackHelo, would you like to go shooting with me? I know this great dump where I shoot rats.

Back on topic: I've been busted for carrying without permission. Cost about $4000 to get clear. Have my CCW now, had it applied for and sitting on the judge's desk then. Had had one before and stupidly let it lapse (I just hate begging hat in hand for some bureaucrat to give me permission to exercise my right) My conclusion? I'm carrying come hell or high water. Lose my job? If I'm convicted I'll lose my CAREER. Hey, I can get another career...changed careers once...I'll change twice. No real biggie. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many people doing much of anything after being killed. Just ask yourself what's more important, job or life? And,"is it better to have it and not need it or to need it and not have it?" You decide. Your choice. Your consequences.

Cornered Rat, your self restraint is admirable.

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Byron Quick
 
Wow, that got ugly fast. I'll just try to sneak this in before the admin lays the smack down on this thread.

BlackHole, before you spout too much venom, please remember that some of Rat's family members were in those camps you're screaming at him about. Some didn't come out, from what I understand. Byron is exactly right; Rat is showing AMAZING self-discipline. Had you done anything like that to most anyone else here, you'd be canked by now. You owe Rat an apology, quite frankly. As for Christian tradition, I'm no big fan of Christianity but the Nazi's were pretty good at what they did and they felt it necessary to ban Jewish gun ownership first and general gun ownership second, which ought to tell you something. THEY obviously thought Jews with guns were more dangerous than the ones without. Of course, later they were proven right at the Warsaw ghetto. I have a copy of Goebbels's daily journal in which he rants for several lines about the stupidity of whoever slipped and somehow let the Jews in that ghetto obtain firearms. The people who were there on both sides disagree with you, in other words.

As for Skorzeny, that's a nickname. Let it go. I don't know Skorz that well but I know he's a professional soldier (or was?) and I also know that among professionals, certain traits are admired no matter who holds them. Again, Skorzeny is showing extreme restraint by not simply having you canked based on the evidence you provided by flaming him over a simple choice of nickname.

If you MUST flame someone, at least have the decency to do it to REAL neo-nazis. Go to http://www.geocities.com/gwinnydapooh and click on the "Idiots" link, or go straight to http://www.geocities.com/gwinnydapooh/idiots.html and take it from there. You can also try my debate board at http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb74156 but if you flame and spam you get deleted just like anybody else. Hope that helps keep the peace around here.

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
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