CCW question

The inner city neighborhood area I lived in had one of the highest violent crime rates per capita in the country. Shootings were nearly a daily occurence as were break-ins, robberies etc. I was familiar with the gang's activities and their MO's--as well as their ability to shoot and kill anyone. If i was off my property I always took evasive action when I sensed trouble headed my way--as well as knowing what areas had chokepoints and which ones had quick escape avenues. Once cornered on my property--that's a different deal--and home/property invasion incidents were very high in my area. In fact--my house was the only one in the 2 block area that hadn't been broken into or robbed (some houses were hit more than once)--mostly because I kept odd hours--and I'm sure the word was out that I was a hunter/sport shooter.

Random shootings were a way of life in the neighborhood--the street lamp and road signs directly in front of my house had been shot out multiple times. When walking my dog in the mornings it was interesting to find what kind of spent cases were lying around. Some, I'm sure, were simply chucked out the window of a car after a drive -by shooting

Whatever the law may be--pulling my weapon out (not pointed at them, BTW) and having it seen by the "trespassers" at the time had exactly the desired outcome. It "could" have been a mistake--but in both cases the threats were real--I'm positive of that.
 
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stagpanther said:
Let's say you are carrying and 1 or more aggressive individual perceive that you are armed--and decide that you're an easy mark taking you on and attempting to disarm you and take your weapon. Essentially--within the 6 or 7 ft personal space zone they are a potential but "unproven" threat.

From the legal standpoint--I don't see how you can justify drawing and aiming until you have already been assaulted--in other words it seems like you have to "allow" an escalation to the point of heightened and easily proved threat before drawing.
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from a legal standpoint you just admitted you didn’t have any reason to justify drawing your gun.

There is a lot in this scenario that begs for questions but I don’t think the focus here should be about if you can draw. There should be no question about that...

my take is to work on what to do when someone your not comfortable with attempts to enter your personal space. I occasionally refer to this article for managing unknown contacts: http://web.archive.org/web/20120522232945/http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf
 
Posted by stagpanther:
Whatever the law may be--pulling my weapon out (not pointed at them, BTW) and having it seen by the "trespassers" at the time had exactly the desired outcome. It "could" have been a mistake--
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Absent sufficient evidence to show justification, it sure could.

Do read the sticky, and sleep on it.
 
We shouldn't let fear of legal repercussions inhibit us to the point that we're afraid to act in our own defense.
Or leave us indecisive until it's way too late.
Like the old adage sez (I like old adages) it's better to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.
Sounds corny but kind of true in many cases.
Lets not let thoughts of justifying our actions cloud our abilities to survive.
First things first.
 
I am not likely to pull a handgun to prevent or stop a fist fight
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Good. Two people that I don't know are fighting? Good on them. Keep it clean. I don't know how I'd feel about head bashing into the concrete.

I dont consider 6 people beating on me to be a fist fight
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Amen, and if they find that gun......

I dont think anything good will come from a badguy taking my gun
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Nothing good will come out of it at all. Only bad.

I have been in a several fist fights and never sustaining serious injury..if this situation is something dramatically different and dramatically more dangerous, I should be able to explain that very easily.
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Is a busted nose considered serious injury? I still can't breathe through my left nostril... I should get that check out sometime.






My take is to try to avoid physical a altercation at all times while carrying your handgun. Even if you mean good, you can't pretend to know what'll happen. I've seen way too many people get knocked out cold by a cousin, brother, friend, uncle, or random person that passes by for trying to break up a fight. Or even help the downed person up. Just stay situationally aware of the surroundings.

Things can go way too many different ways. I named just a few of the hundreds. Be careful!
 
Absent sufficient evidence to show justification, it sure could.

Do read the sticky, and sleep on it.
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I wasn't too worried about the justification evidence thing--a guy across the street had recently be shot--and a teenage boy had been ambushed and shot and killed at the end on my block--not to mention other shootings I had seen within 2 blocks of my home. Pretty much an urban war zone.

In retrospect--the mere fact that in both cases the "trespassers" simply left without any explanation of why they were on my property to begin with kind of tells the story. Again--it's one of those "you had to be there to make the call" kind of things. Funny how in neither case the guys didn't call in a complaint to LE.
 
Posted by g.willikers:
We shouldn't let fear of legal repercussions inhibit us to the point that we're afraid to act in our own defense.
Or leave us indecisive until it's way too late.
Like the old adage sez (I like old adages) it's better to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.
Sounds corny but kind of true in many cases.
Lets not let thoughts of justifying our actions cloud our abilities to survive.
First things first.
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We should avoid unlawfully threatening or using force. If for some people it is "fear of legal repercussions" that "inhibits" such criminal behavior, so be it.

The defender naturally believes that he is the "good guy", but there is no reason whatsoever to believe that those twelve who may judge him will have any reason to see things that way. The victim (and that will be the proper term) and his associates will clean up well, and they will present a different story. They may have long rap sheets, but unless the records were relevant and, in a all but a couple of jurisdictions, known to the defender, the twelve doing the judging will never know about them. And very importantly, any witnesses who happen to have been present probably noticed nothing that happened before the shots were fired.

In Post #15, serf 'rett provided two links. I strongly agree--everyone here should study them.
 
^^^
More reason to seek good training for surviving deadly encounters.
Well trained folks are much less likely to make poor decisions and face long term consequences.
But there's no avoidance of the fact that to be able to deal with those consequences, whether they are the result of good or bad choices, one has to be there and not six feet under.
 
Koda94 said:
from a legal standpoint you just admitted you didn’t have any reason to justify drawing your gun.

There is a lot in this scenario that begs for questions but I don’t think the focus here should be about if you can draw. There should be no question about that...

my take is to work on what to do when someone your not comfortable with attempts to enter your personal space. I occasionally refer to this article for managing unknown contacts: http://web.archive.org/web/20120522232945/http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf
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Good read.
 
These kind of scenario based questions come up alot when ive trained everyday citizens.

My response is usually based around the use of ALTERNATIVE force measures. The legal justification needed to deploy some OC is MUCH lower then that needed to use a firearm.

Additionally, the use of the OC and the subsequent reaction of the aggressors can speak volumes to their mindset.

By no means am i advocating the use of OC as a substitute for a firearm. If its time to shoot... Then SHOOT. But, for these types of gray areas, where justification for the use of deadly force is in question, a blast of good quality Pepper Spray into the assailant (or group of assailants) is easier to justify and has lighter legal ramifications if you are wrong.

The saying..." If all you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail" applies here.
Options are ALWAYS good if properly applied. OC is not the proper response if facing an lethal threat, but for the in between stuff its a nice option to have
 
I recommend a book to all of you. So people can get a better understanding.

A citizens guide to: Force Decisions
By Rory Miller

One of the best books I've ever read on the matter.
 
Posted by stagpanther:
I wasn't too worried about the justification evidence thing--a guy across the street had recently be shot--and a teenage boy had been ambushed and shot and killed at the end on my block--not to mention other shootings I had seen within 2 blocks of my home. Pretty much an urban war zone.
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None of that obviates the need for evidence in a defense of justication by one iota.

In retrospect--the mere fact that in both cases the "trespassers" simply left without any explanation of why they were on my property to begin with kind of tells the story.
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It tells absolutely nothing.

Again--it's one of those "you had to be there to make the call" kind of things.
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Maybe, but a good general rule is to not even think about presenting a weapon in a case of mere trespass. That can be a real problem if the proper owner had gone forth to confront the trespasser. Legally, the trespasser might well be justified in the use of deadly force in self defense against the property owner.

Funny how in neither case the guys didn't call in a complaint to LE.
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Good thing for you, but had someone else witnessed it and assume that you were a felon....
 
its not about being afraid to act.. its about common sense and not seeing every problem as a nail while you carry a hammer.

There are plenty of people who seem to consider every hostile misdeed as a gun pulling situation. Few situations may warrant that level of force but (generally), most do not.
 
Posted by FireForged:
its not about being afraid to act.. its about common sense and not seeing every problem as a nail while you carry a hammer.
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Exactly!

There are plenty of people who seem to consider every hostile misdeed as a gun pulling situation. Few situations may warrant that level of force but (generally), most do not
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On the web, so it would seem. In real life probably not so many---I hope.
 
How about backing up if possible and issuing a direct command, something like "Stop, don't come any closer or I will treat you as a threat."

In a public space, one may not prevent someone from coming close t, and telling someone minding his own business that one will "treat" him "as a threat" would be a very poor idea indeed, unless there were a clear indication of danger--say, the person approaching is hiding something in his hand that could be a weapon.


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Then, if they continue to close on you, you will know their intentions, without any doubt, and act accordingly.
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I think g.willikers is right about this, If you issue a command like "Stop' don't come any closer, your making my concerned" a "Reasonable person" would expect a reasonable non-threat to stop and not advance. If you have the time and distance you should add, "if you come any closer I'll be forced to defend myself". This has two advantages, One if there are other eye-witnesses around it shows you tried to de-escalate, and that you were indeed in fear for your safety, and two it shows a "reasonable man" that they were obviously intending harm because they continued to advance after you told them you would defend against such action. By only saying you would defend yourself you are not threating them with your gun. If they stop, they might not even have a clue that you were armed, if they continue then they would find out soon enough.
 
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Posted by tedbeau:
If you issue a command like "Stop' don't come any closer, your making my concerned" a "Reasonable person" would expect a reasonable non-threat to stop and not advance.
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And that might be okay, if the person to whom you are talking is otherwise acting in a manner unmistakably consistent with that of a likely assailant, with no other plausible explanation of his actions.

For example, if you are alone and fueling your car, and you are approached by a pedestrian who is clearly not an employee of the station walking in a direction that leads only to you, and he has one hand concealed behind him, you might well have a legitimate reason to ask him to keep his distance.

If he might be an employee of the station, you would be taking a chance. If he is, you could get into real trouble.

As Craig points out, if you are using an ATM and someone approaches, you have to ask yourself whether he is after your money or coming over to withdraw his own after you have finished your business.

And you had better not be wrong.

If you are on a public sidewalk, you had better not "issue a command" unless there is some indication that that person does in fact present an immediate threat to you.
 
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