Dave Chuppa
New member
2 guns with 2 reloads for each. Every day all day.
CCW Ammo Capacity - How Many Is "Enough?"
- Thread starter DragonDog
- Start date
Of course, if you throw fragmentation into the mix, things get a bit more interesting. Dr. Fackler described the synergistic effect of mild to moderate fragmentation and temporary cavity working together to cause a permanent wound channel out of proportion to the expanded diameter of the bullet or the temporary cavity in and of themselves here:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf
From the link:
Now, fragmentation is usually an undesirable attribute in a defensive handgun bullet because most fragmenting handgun bullets penetrate very shallowly. However, there are a few exceptions in which a very particular type of bullet of sufficient weight can be driven fast enough to fragment moderately while still penetrating adequately. .357 Magnum loadings using semi-jacketed hollowpoints of 125-158gr often fit this category.
Probably the most well-known example are the full-power 125gr loadings such as Federal 357B and Remington Express. These loadings typically penetrate in the neighborhood of 11-13" and routinely fragment by shedding large shards of their jackets at around 6-8" with the core of the bullet retaining about 60% of the total weight. Heavier 158gr bullets of similar construction behave in a similar fashion, but display these characteristics at a few inches deeper penetration depth.
While such bullets can and have been used in .38 Special, that cartridge is typically unable to achieve the velocity required to make such bullets behave this way. Instead, .38 Special loadings using semi-jacketed hollowpoints usually give mild to moderate expansion with little or no fragmentation unless lightweight 110gr bullets are used in which case penetration suffers.
These characteristics are often overlooked because the majority of the work on defensive handgun bullets over the past 20-30 years has focused on semi-auto calibers such as 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. With the limitations of what type of bullet will reliably function in a semi-automatic, it is best to keep with non-fragmenting bullets in the above-mentioned calibers in order to ensure adequate penetration. Unfortunately, many have taken the leap of logic to assume that fragmentation is always undesirable and thus some very good loadings are often overlooked.
Real Answer
I'm no Operator, nor do I have any real experience in conflict. Just an old Pistolero that shoots a lot and still likes wood, leather and steel things. But the answer to the original posters question is available.
In Pakistan a CIA Operator a while back was jailed for killing two would be robbers. Some say "kidnappers" instead of robbers. The Police published a list and photos of what he carried. I thought it interesting as he KNEW he was going into harms way and had been trained. Among other items he carried:
1. Glock 19
2. 5 magazines
3. 75 loose rounds
Pakistan is not the USA, I know. But this Operators mindset clearly shows he was prepared to "run & gun" if he had too. Killing two armed attackers also shows he knew his stuff and did not hesitate to do what he needed to do. He also carried a cell phone and an extra battery (which I think is a very good idea). Where he carried this stuff is a mystery to me. As the pictures I've seen shows him casually dressed. The CIA valued him a great deal. As in the end they paid millions $$$$ to get him released. So now we know what the answer to the OP's question is. At least for Pakistan.
I'm no Operator, nor do I have any real experience in conflict. Just an old Pistolero that shoots a lot and still likes wood, leather and steel things. But the answer to the original posters question is available.
In Pakistan a CIA Operator a while back was jailed for killing two would be robbers. Some say "kidnappers" instead of robbers. The Police published a list and photos of what he carried. I thought it interesting as he KNEW he was going into harms way and had been trained. Among other items he carried:
1. Glock 19
2. 5 magazines
3. 75 loose rounds
Pakistan is not the USA, I know. But this Operators mindset clearly shows he was prepared to "run & gun" if he had too. Killing two armed attackers also shows he knew his stuff and did not hesitate to do what he needed to do. He also carried a cell phone and an extra battery (which I think is a very good idea). Where he carried this stuff is a mystery to me. As the pictures I've seen shows him casually dressed. The CIA valued him a great deal. As in the end they paid millions $$$$ to get him released. So now we know what the answer to the OP's question is. At least for Pakistan.
Kreyzhorse
New member
I have never felt that I needed any more than 5. Of course I occasionly carry a semi and or reloads, but those extra rounds are icing on the cake.
I don't want to post where I live on the internet, but I found a similiar story on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M556ldL8nOU
There is no absolutely accurate data base that contains the information about how many times a violent crime was averted by presenting a gun, firing a warning shot or how many bullets were fired to stop an attack.
People like statistics. Statistics can be manipulated to make any point you want to. In 100% of all shootings at least 1 shot was fired. The same people that feel safe with a 5 shot snubbie or mouse gun are generally the same people that feel gelatin tests are the holy grail of ballistics.
Why would you train and prepare for only a certain percentage of KNOWN occurrences? I am not a gambler that is not the same as taking a calculated risk. I think that you are playing the odds in a game that you do not understand.
I train and prepare for any reasonable situation I may find myself in. I have shown my summer EDC before, it is a Glock 27 with G23 mags and one reload, and a 640 PRO with 1 reload. That gives me 37 rounds between 2 guns.
How many people that feel 5 are enough are regular patrons of casinos?
How many people that feel safe with only 5 shots have had any relevant modern self defense training?
When is the last time you engaged multiple targets while moving dynamically off the X?
I was taught to make my shots count and I am not a proponent of spray and pray. I have been carrying a gun for over 30 years, both in uniform and concealed. I think the problem is mindset. You carry 5 rounds because you hope that is all you need to survive a lethal encounter. I carry more because if I am in a lethal encounter I am going to dominate.
If someone threatens deadly violence on me or mine where the ONLY response I have is force, then I am going to overwhelm them with violence of action, engage and destroy, to do less is to invite failure.
Before someone starts in about the legalities ad nausium, with taking the fight to the enemy, once the engagement starts, properly executed it will be over in seconds.
People like statistics. Statistics can be manipulated to make any point you want to. In 100% of all shootings at least 1 shot was fired. The same people that feel safe with a 5 shot snubbie or mouse gun are generally the same people that feel gelatin tests are the holy grail of ballistics.
Why would you train and prepare for only a certain percentage of KNOWN occurrences? I am not a gambler that is not the same as taking a calculated risk. I think that you are playing the odds in a game that you do not understand.
I train and prepare for any reasonable situation I may find myself in. I have shown my summer EDC before, it is a Glock 27 with G23 mags and one reload, and a 640 PRO with 1 reload. That gives me 37 rounds between 2 guns.
How many people that feel 5 are enough are regular patrons of casinos?
How many people that feel safe with only 5 shots have had any relevant modern self defense training?
When is the last time you engaged multiple targets while moving dynamically off the X?
I was taught to make my shots count and I am not a proponent of spray and pray. I have been carrying a gun for over 30 years, both in uniform and concealed. I think the problem is mindset. You carry 5 rounds because you hope that is all you need to survive a lethal encounter. I carry more because if I am in a lethal encounter I am going to dominate.
If someone threatens deadly violence on me or mine where the ONLY response I have is force, then I am going to overwhelm them with violence of action, engage and destroy, to do less is to invite failure.
Before someone starts in about the legalities ad nausium, with taking the fight to the enemy, once the engagement starts, properly executed it will be over in seconds.
Honestly, it all comes down to the fact that each of us must examine our own lives and make the decision as to what attributes of a CCW are most benificial in our unique circumstances. It is impossible to be optimally prepared for every possible situation that we might find ourselves in, so we all must make the decision as to which situations we'll be less prepared for in order to be better prepared for others. I am best prepared for the most likely situations that I might find myself in with a revolver and one reload, but others whose circumstances are different from my own may be better prepared with a high-capacity 9mm, several reloads, and one or more backup guns.
I have no illusion that my revolver best prepares me for a situation in which I'm faced with two or more attackers, but multiple-attacker scenarios are not my only concern. Of greater concern is a single, very large attacker at very close range because that is a far more likely situation for me to find myself in. For that situation, a revolver firing a powerful cartridge loaded with heavy, deep penetrating bullets is the most effective handgun for me to use. My choice of a revolver is a calculated risk which is something that we all must take to one degree or another. It is incorrect to assume that everyone who selects a lower-capacity handgun is overly optomistic or hasn't given due consideration to reality just as it is equally erroneous to assume that everyone who carries a high-capacity handgun and/or multiple reloads is paranoid or a mall ninja. I learned a long time ago not to assume that I can select the best gun for someone I do not know.
I have no illusion that my revolver best prepares me for a situation in which I'm faced with two or more attackers, but multiple-attacker scenarios are not my only concern. Of greater concern is a single, very large attacker at very close range because that is a far more likely situation for me to find myself in. For that situation, a revolver firing a powerful cartridge loaded with heavy, deep penetrating bullets is the most effective handgun for me to use. My choice of a revolver is a calculated risk which is something that we all must take to one degree or another. It is incorrect to assume that everyone who selects a lower-capacity handgun is overly optomistic or hasn't given due consideration to reality just as it is equally erroneous to assume that everyone who carries a high-capacity handgun and/or multiple reloads is paranoid or a mall ninja. I learned a long time ago not to assume that I can select the best gun for someone I do not know.
Better question (to my way of thinking) ...
How many people that lawfully carry a CCW weapon are capable of accurately & effectively using whatever number of rounds are available to them, especially under the stressful and demanding conditions that can occur during an unexpected dynamic, chaotic and rapidly changing deadly force situation, probably occurring in poor light?
How many are adequately familiar with the laws governing the use of deadly force in their state?
How many have prepared themselves physically, mentally & emotionally to actually use lawful deadly force?
How many have considered that they may be faced with a situation where the laws might consider the use of deadly force to be lawful, justified and necessary ... but the totality of the circumstances might make it inappropriate?
How many of them have actually tested their skillset in some sort of formal training ... reinforced and maintained that skillset with sufficiently frequent proper practice ... and then thought to engage in further/recurrent training to make sure that what they thought they had learned and were practicing was actually what they should have been doing?
How many rounds of ammunition is enough? Dunno. Might be a moot point if other critical priorities (many of which are arguably more critical than round count) haven't been considered and addressed, though.
FWIW, in some recent updated LE training (Officer Survival and Street Tactics) I stopped trying to keep count of the documented instances (known to the instructor) in which a cop had effectively used a 5-shot .38 Spl (carried as a backup weapon) to save his life. The instances discussed included the little 5-shot guns being used against 1, 2 & 3 attackers.
Mindset, skillset & tactics.
More range time properly practicing good techniques & skills.
Suit yourself, though.
How many people that lawfully carry a CCW weapon are capable of accurately & effectively using whatever number of rounds are available to them, especially under the stressful and demanding conditions that can occur during an unexpected dynamic, chaotic and rapidly changing deadly force situation, probably occurring in poor light?
How many are adequately familiar with the laws governing the use of deadly force in their state?
How many have prepared themselves physically, mentally & emotionally to actually use lawful deadly force?
How many have considered that they may be faced with a situation where the laws might consider the use of deadly force to be lawful, justified and necessary ... but the totality of the circumstances might make it inappropriate?
How many of them have actually tested their skillset in some sort of formal training ... reinforced and maintained that skillset with sufficiently frequent proper practice ... and then thought to engage in further/recurrent training to make sure that what they thought they had learned and were practicing was actually what they should have been doing?
How many rounds of ammunition is enough? Dunno. Might be a moot point if other critical priorities (many of which are arguably more critical than round count) haven't been considered and addressed, though.
FWIW, in some recent updated LE training (Officer Survival and Street Tactics) I stopped trying to keep count of the documented instances (known to the instructor) in which a cop had effectively used a 5-shot .38 Spl (carried as a backup weapon) to save his life. The instances discussed included the little 5-shot guns being used against 1, 2 & 3 attackers.
Mindset, skillset & tactics.
More range time properly practicing good techniques & skills.
Suit yourself, though.
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After experimenting with both semi autos and revolvers for CCW I settled on the revolver because of their simplicity. I am not a highly trained police officer who has had tons of training in the tactics of self defense so I wanted something I can just draw, point and shoot. I don't want to worry about safeties or jamming. The revolver will shoot when held in any position so you don't have to worry about limp wristing which can lead to stove piping.
Another thing is most highly concealable semi autos are in .380 which is in my opinion inferior to the 38spl which most concealable revolvers are. This made me settle on a snub nosed revolver and I ended up choosing a Ruger LCR. I voted 5 shots because I am not able to comfortably carry more than my gun. I don't want to be rattling around with speed loaders or strips.
Another thing is most highly concealable semi autos are in .380 which is in my opinion inferior to the 38spl which most concealable revolvers are. This made me settle on a snub nosed revolver and I ended up choosing a Ruger LCR. I voted 5 shots because I am not able to comfortably carry more than my gun. I don't want to be rattling around with speed loaders or strips.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
Had an incident tonight.
More rounds you can carry, the better. Try to carry as much as you possibly can.
Much love brothers. Goodnight.
SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Beretta PX4 Storm / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / G30 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15
sent from my Android
More rounds you can carry, the better. Try to carry as much as you possibly can.
Much love brothers. Goodnight.
SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Beretta PX4 Storm / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / G30 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15
sent from my Android
Spats McGee
Administrator
No, that's not cryptic!Constantine said:
Glad you're still around to post about it, though.
If carrying an auto, of any capacity, I always carry at least one spare magazine - since magazines are the most common points of failure.
I find that a double magazine holder tends to make a nice counterweight to the pistol, and is actually more comfortable than no magazines (and thus, no counterweight).
It isn't that hard to conceal non-mouse guns. Carried an M&P45c all day yesterday, including while riding a motorcycle.
I find that a double magazine holder tends to make a nice counterweight to the pistol, and is actually more comfortable than no magazines (and thus, no counterweight).
It isn't that hard to conceal non-mouse guns. Carried an M&P45c all day yesterday, including while riding a motorcycle.
engineer88
New member
This is one of the better conversations I have read on the internet in a long time. My only concern with the revolver platform would be a slow fire, but then again there are no double feeds. I generally trust revolvers better so that limits my rounds. I feel the most comfortable with 8-10 rounds so when carrying 5 shot revolvers (like my SP101, model 85, 638 or even my 6 shot 64-5) I will usually add another revolver or pocket auto. I do generally carry a speed strip but I have no delusions about using it unless I have found cover and am planning my retreat at that point (I have trained with strips and other loaders without looking).
That said we were gonna be out late tonight, so I carried my Glock 19 with an extra mag. Again 8-10 is a minimum not a rule.
I would also like to say, even folks in this thread have said they don't carry 24/7 due to the difficulty. I would rather they carry a little 5 shot snub or tiny 32 or 380 than only a pocket knife. I am sure presenting the gun is enough to end a good percentage of conflicts. Think about a scenario of an attacker (or two) armed with knives. I am sure a snubby would be plenty of deterrent.
As stated above, we must choose based on our level of comfort, but I will admit to being impressed with the intelligent responses in this thread. In this day and age precise forethought and planning ahead are such a fringe concept. It is excellent to see that honest, deep thinking gentlemen and ladies are out there with their full faculties in tact and not distrated by the ridiculous nonsense that abounds today. I salute you all.
That said we were gonna be out late tonight, so I carried my Glock 19 with an extra mag. Again 8-10 is a minimum not a rule.
I would also like to say, even folks in this thread have said they don't carry 24/7 due to the difficulty. I would rather they carry a little 5 shot snub or tiny 32 or 380 than only a pocket knife. I am sure presenting the gun is enough to end a good percentage of conflicts. Think about a scenario of an attacker (or two) armed with knives. I am sure a snubby would be plenty of deterrent.
As stated above, we must choose based on our level of comfort, but I will admit to being impressed with the intelligent responses in this thread. In this day and age precise forethought and planning ahead are such a fringe concept. It is excellent to see that honest, deep thinking gentlemen and ladies are out there with their full faculties in tact and not distrated by the ridiculous nonsense that abounds today. I salute you all.
Comfort is a relative term. It is much more comfortable to wear a Glock 23/27 and a couple of mags than to wear body armor all day. An extra mag or speed loader is much more comfy than hiding because you just shot some dude with your last shot and he and his friends are really angry.
A quality rig makes all the difference. Wearing shorts and a t shirt I carry a Glock and an extra mag, If I wear a cover garment I can use my SH and add a mag and another Glock or J frame.
Since I have retired my ROE has changed, I will only intervene to stop a murder from happening, and if I do I am going all in NOW! There is no sticking your toe in to check the water.
A quality rig makes all the difference. Wearing shorts and a t shirt I carry a Glock and an extra mag, If I wear a cover garment I can use my SH and add a mag and another Glock or J frame.
Since I have retired my ROE has changed, I will only intervene to stop a murder from happening, and if I do I am going all in NOW! There is no sticking your toe in to check the water.
Redhawk5.5+P+
New member
I got this from AA, ones to many a million is not enough.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Another thing to consider when evaluating how much ammo you need is what is your skill level - how fast can you shoot compared to how fast you can assess the threat?
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428114
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428114