Case length giving me different COAL for 9mm and other issues reloading?

[Unclenick]

adn258,

The official SAAMI lengths are about magazine feed reliability and universal fit (not jamming into short throats, for example). For those purposes, the 223 Rem COL is given in the SAMMI standard as 2.125-2.260 inches. Most individual guns can tolerate a little wider range than that, but if yours will, you need to discover its limits for yourself.

 

[74A95]

Are all your groups that size?

 

[Unclenick]

It depended on the bullet. That 200 grain Hornady SWC (now discontinued, AFAICT) was just the cat's meow in that gun. I probably kept that group as being the best, but I recall around 1/2" being pretty typical with that load when the gun was still tight. A year later it was probably a quarter inch bigger as the gun shot itself looser. I retightened it about another year out and it went back to drilling 25-yard bugholes.

The group below was shot a month later than the first one with commercial hard cast bullets of the H&G 68 shape (as opposed to shorter SWC shapes) and the note says I weighed some five months later and discovered they had 3-grains weight variation, which is common with cast bullets, as they typically are out of multiple cavities, but not tight like the Hornady bullets were. The group measures 1.023" CTC for the two widest-spaced holes. I was running just 3.8 grains of Bullseye in it, and in retrospect, it probably would have done better with 4 or 4.2, like the JSWC got, because I had arrived at 3.8 by starting at 3.5 grains and working up until groups shrank. But it left no margin for doing a small amount better with a little more. Like a lot of Bull's-eye competitors back then, I was constantly trading off precision against minimizing recoil to get back on target faster during timed and rapid-fire phases. If I had it to do over, I'd up the charge and would have put a square bottom firing pin stop in the gun to reduce muzzle rise (it delays slide operation by reducing mechanical advantage in starting to cock the hammer).

Back then I always shot 5-shot groups because that was how many we loaded at one time in magazines in matches. I hadn't thought through the statistical aspects yet. I also shot a lot of Star swaged 185-grain SWC's (part of a bulk purchase with others) for timed and rapid back then. They were not great. My notes show initial 5-shot groups averaged about 2.3 inches and would open to 2.7" when the fouling built up. Then I discovered seating out to headspace on the bullet's contact with the throat rather than on the case mouth. This got the bullet started in the center. It stopped scraping lead off on the edge of the throat entry, so fouling was greatly reduced, and groups shrank 40% to about 1.375", and that was quite repeatable. This was also with 3.8 grains of Bullseye. That's about as good as those stubby bullets would shoot, so I ran them only in 50-foot indoor matches after a couple of dozen groups and a little powder charge fiddling showed no further improvement.

Later in the '80s, I obtained a Dillon Square Deal B. I made my own powder drop tube for it with a Lyman M-type expanding profile. That got bullets in straighter and accuracy with cast bullets appeared to improve a little, with 185-grain hardcast LSWC's from a good local caster staying just under 1.25" at 25-yards off bags after that (still 5-shot groups). I wish the tumble-lube design had been around back then, as I've had them cut groups in half with one revolver.

Headspacing on the bullet is shown third from left, below.

 

[Shadow9mm]

I really need to try wad cutters at some point. such nice clean holes.

 

[Unclenick]

The choice of paper helps. That 75-foot Smallbore target was old when I shot at it. The old tagboard seemed to break better than some of the newer stuff, and it had got a little more brittle with age.

 

[adn258]

Shadow9mm you are a great salesman for this stuff lol. Went into Scheels today, and you're right, the Hornady bullet comparator measuring from the ogive and the Frankford Arsenal universal seating die.


You're 100% right bro, they are both incredible tools that will save a ton of time and guessing. I can tell lengths of cartridges way easier than just relying on calipers and measuring the COL.

The only mistake I made and you can laugh, is I was seating bullets the typical way by setting the bullet on the case and sending it up the RAM. Stupid, stupid, stupid, it's just a habit thing, and I totally understand/get the window. I'm hoping it didn't screw up the seater die actually? It works amazingly well, but I do get a weird noise like it's popping off the bullet head when bringing the ram back down after seating. Is that normal?

The window thing is freaking amazing and saves time after using it.

I really appreciate you recommending these tools. I also splurged at Scheels and got a Dillon Super Swage 600. I have a bunch of .223 brass with crimped primer pockets. I didn't know this was a reloading thing until recently (and I was crushing and forcing up primers with extreme force, wondering, "why is this so hard to seat this primer".

Yet another dumb amateur mistake. In any case, I bought the super swage for 100 bucks (more expensive than the tools you stated mind you). It removes those crimped pockets/swages the pocket easily. Now I can easily seat primers which I did, load and use the tools you recommended.

I'm hoping I didn't screw up my T-7 press by forcing those primers with extreme force in other cases. I've discarded those cases by the way, and I'm not going to use them with potentially crushed primers.

I've loaded some .223 with 22grs Ramshot Tac 2.25 COL, 22.5grs same COL and 23grs 2.25. I also loaded some 22.5grs RT with a COL 2.24. the seater from Frankford seems very accurate. I'm going to try these loads first which appear to all fall within safety guidelines. Just trying really hard as I'm learning this to not screw something up.

I also bought a Frankford Arsenal total case prep station a few weeks ago. This machine trims to a set length, chamfers, deburrs, and cleans the primer pocket on cases. You plug it in, and it does this quickly and efficiently. This was expensive too, I bought it a few weeks ago, but it's insanely valuable.

In any case, I think I'm getting a nice setup here so I actually can reload efficiently, especially military surplus cases like 308 or 223. What do you think Shadow9mm?

 

[44 AMP]

Besides being cheap, I learned to load before there were any there were any electric tools that applied to reloading beyond an electric drill (and that was far from a necessity).

You might consider getting the cheap hand powered tools to have as a backup, so you could, if needed, reload when the power is out. Or while in the field.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Shadow9mm you are a great salesman for this stuff lol. Went into Scheels today, and you're right, the Hornady bullet comparator measuring from the ogive and the Frankford Arsenal universal seating die.


You're 100% right bro, they are both incredible tools that will save a ton of time and guessing. I can tell lengths of cartridges way easier than just relying on calipers and measuring the COL.

The only mistake I made and you can laugh, is I was seating bullets the typical way by setting the bullet on the case and sending it up the RAM. Stupid, stupid, stupid, it's just a habit thing, and I totally understand/get the window. I'm hoping it didn't screw up the seater die actually? It works amazingly well, but I do get a weird noise like it's popping off the bullet head when bringing the ram back down after seating. Is that normal?

The window thing is freaking amazing and saves time after using it.

I really appreciate you recommending these tools. I also splurged at Scheels and got a Dillon Super Swage 600. I have a bunch of .223 brass with crimped primer pockets. I didn't know this was a reloading thing until recently (and I was crushing and forcing up primers with extreme force, wondering, "why is this so hard to seat this primer".

Yet another dumb amateur mistake. In any case, I bought the super swage for 100 bucks (more expensive than the tools you stated mind you). It removes those crimped pockets/swages the pocket easily. Now I can easily seat primers which I did, load and use the tools you recommended.

I'm hoping I didn't screw up my T-7 press by forcing those primers with extreme force in other cases. I've discarded those cases by the way, and I'm not going to use them with potentially crushed primers.

I've loaded some .223 with 22grs Ramshot Tac 2.25 COL, 22.5grs same COL and 23grs 2.25. I also loaded some 22.5grs RT with a COL 2.24. the seater from Frankford seems very accurate. I'm going to try these loads first which appear to all fall within safety guidelines. Just trying really hard as I'm learning this to not screw something up.

I also bought a Frankford Arsenal total case prep station a few weeks ago. This machine trims to a set length, chamfers, deburrs, and cleans the primer pocket on cases. You plug it in, and it does this quickly and efficiently. This was expensive too, I bought it a few weeks ago, but it's insanely valuable.

In any case, I think I'm getting a nice setup here so I actually can reload efficiently, especially military surplus cases like 308 or 223. What do you think Shadow9mm?

They are good useful tools, I'm glad you are pleased with them as well.

I made the same mistake the first time or 2 I used the dies, putting the bullet on the case. It takes a little getting use to, but it becomes normal fast and it is really nice.

As far as the clicking, I noticed it as well. If you take out one of your other bullet insert collars and look they have a rubber o-ring. Under the o-ring on one side you will find little metal pin. That's what keeps the bullet from falling through when you drop it in. I attribute the click to the bullet coming out and the pin snapping back into place.

As far as swaging. I had a swager, a RCBS for my single stage press. It was a loud, slow tedious process that saw the case stick on the swager a lot. I ended up getting the RCBS cutter. I chucked it up in my drill and buzz each casing. Quick and easy. I did look at the dillon tool, but it was out of my price range at the time. looks like a better tool than the one I had.

I have also made snap purchases. last time I ordered off midway and found the same item at cabelas when I was there for like $20 cheaper. It happens.

I think your press will be fine. sizing rifle brass requires a lot more force than seating a stubborn primer in my experience.

I love seating using the micrometer. I wanted to make sure it measured right though. It was dead on according to my calipers with several measurements. so nice to just measure and adjust 1 time.

The load workup seems reasonable. start low, work your way up. I have had loads 30-06 that I stopped over 2 grains low due to pressure signs, but that gun has a short throat and a tight chamber, each gun is a little different you will learn you gun let us know how the load workup goes.

Much like 44AMP I have bought many hand tools over the years and used many of the bits in my drill. A case prep station was out of my price range when I started. I did buy a hornady case prep trio this year, I use it to chafer/debur and remove crimps. its nice to have all 3 steps in 1 place. At the same time its is good to have non electronic tools too. I'm hoping I get dial calipers for christmas from my wife. It is all I asked for. Digital are great, however when the batteries die it can be a hassle finding the battery you need, and they are expensive. A dial should last me the rest of my life.

I had 1 other thing I wanted to mention since your starting out. Plastic shoe boxes. You can get them for around $1.28 each, very budget friendly.https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sterilite-Plastic-6-Qt-Storage-Box-White-Set-of-36/44785798?fulfillmentIntent=In-store Why plastic shoe boxes you ask? They are the best storage for brass I have found. I keep one container for range brass. One for brass that is ready to load. With rifle brass, 223 specifically, I keep one for range brass that I have reloaded, that way I don't have to see which cases I have removed crimps from when prepping my brass. You can use 3x5 cards to make labels so you know what is in them, or a label maker if you have one. Lots of other uses too depending on how you want to sort or keep track of your brass. they will hold about 2000 9mm and 1000 223 roughly. There are about 850pcs of 9mm in my ready to load shoe box currently. Need to prep some more.

Also, I have found the 30cal size ammo cans hold 1000rnds of 9mm perfectly dumped in. Much more manageable than the 50 cal cans.

What do I think? I think your doing great. Your doing better than I did starting out so far. Your asking good questions and applying that information as you need or are able. I had to teach myself, made a lot of mistakes, and spent money on tools I did not need. Its good to be able to pass on on my experiences so hopefully others learn from them. Let us know how your load testing goes and we are always here if you have more questions.

 

[adn258]

Thanks soooo much for you support/help Shadow9mm. Some of the best advice on here, and I'm liking those clear shoe boxes for so cheap. Very practical for this indeed, and a great idea. The trio case prep stations are great no doubt. Trimming cases to length is my least favorite part of the reloading process. Those makes it fun and faster in terms of that part.

I have a pair of dial calipers from RCBS and you're not wrong, they seem to be great. They seem very accurate, and since they don't need batteries, I agree can be a huge plus. That was one of the first things I got.

I will let you know how these loads work bud. Hopefully I didn't over-crimp these rounds. They don't look over-crimped but the crimp is noticeable. Of course the crimp is from the lee factory crimp die in the 223 die set. Look forward to getting that big AR and these out to the range, and comparing the super expensive factory Hornady Match ammo for $1.25 a round using the same 75gr HPBT bullet that I've reloaded into once fired Winchester brass.

Good Times, good times! I can afford all the tools in the world. This is because I'm an extremely rich government worker, working as a transit operator. This is a fancy term for being in public transportation as a city bus driver so obviously I'm being very sarcastic about the rich part, but every once in awhile we have to go a bit haywire with the gun/ammo related spending right?

Being almost 34 and single, I can get away with it now and then. That's one plus to still being single I suppose, but now I'm getting into personal stuff sorry . Let's just hope the AmmoPocalypse ends eventually here soon. It's really hard to of course find components like primers, and in all honesty there appears to be no end in sight for the near future.

In all seriousness, I really appreciate your help friend.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Thanks soooo much for you support/help Shadow9mm. Some of the best advice on here, and I'm liking those clear shoe boxes for so cheap. Very practical for this indeed, and a great idea. The trio case prep stations are great no doubt. Trimming cases to length is my least favorite part of the reloading process. Those makes it fun and faster in terms of that part.

I have a pair of dial calipers from RCBS and you're not wrong, they seem to be great. They seem very accurate, and since they don't need batteries, I agree can be a huge plus. That was one of the first things I got.

I will let you know how these loads work bud. Hopefully I didn't over-crimp these rounds. They don't look over-crimped but the crimp is noticeable. Of course the crimp is from the lee factory crimp die in the 223 die set. Look forward to getting that big AR and these out to the range, and comparing the super expensive factory Hornady Match ammo for $1.25 a round using the same 75gr HPBT bullet that I've reloaded into once fired Winchester brass.

Good Times, good times! I can afford all the tools in the world. This is because I'm an extremely rich government worker, working as a transit operator. This is a fancy term for being in public transportation as a city bus driver so obviously I'm being very sarcastic about the rich part, but every once in awhile we have to go a bit haywire with the gun/ammo related spending right?

Being almost 34 and single, I can get away with it now and then. That's one plus to still being single I suppose, but now I'm getting into personal stuff sorry . Let's just hope the AmmoPocalypse ends eventually here soon. It's really hard to of course find components like primers, and in all honesty there appears to be no end in sight for the near future.

In all seriousness, I really appreciate your help friend.

the case prep trio is bare bones budget, but it does what I needed it to. I already have so many hand tools and such a small working space it never made sense for me to get a big one.

Trimming is also my lest favorite part. I have tried several ways and found it to be difficult to set up, tedious, and just down right unpleasant. I am looking at getting the Giraud Tri-Way Trimmer tool, not the big setup, to save some time on the several thousand 223 I need to trim up.

It is possible to over crimp, but unlikely. Watch this video from Johnny's reloading bench. He he tests the effects of accuracy on no crimp to heavy crimp and shows a good way to see how much you are applying with the lee crimp tool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZWv38cNKw

I'm a government employee as well, and the pay is not great, but there is unlimited overtime.... so there's that. But working yourself to death is not great either. I budget a few bucks a check, usually $20 for ammo/supplies. That way even if things get real tight, I can still get what I need even if it takes me a few months to get there.

Primers are out there. Just hit and miss, I found large magnum pistol at my local cabela's the other day. I think they were $60 per 1000. I found small rifle magnum for my 223 there several months back, same price. Just gotta keep looking and asking, and have money in your wallet when you stumble across some.

Happy to help when I am able.

 

[Metal god]

With MY handloads (straight from the book 200gr swc, no special tricks or techniques) in MY hands, from a bench I've gotten 5 shots in one hole at 25yds

I would love to see someone do that live in person . That is truly incredible shooting to me .

I was amazed at this group I shot at only 25feet off hand . to do that same group at 25yds even if on a rest is literally impossible for me .

 

[74A95]

I would love to see someone do that live in person . That is truly incredible shooting to me .

A 5-shot group at just over 2" off a bench is not unusual.

I was amazed at this group I shot at only 25feet off hand . to do that same group at 25yds even if on a rest is literally impossible for me .

Keep shooting. It will happen.

 

[Metal god]

A 5-shot group at just over 2" off a bench is not unusual.

at 25 yards / 75' with a hand gun ? that's impressive .

 

[adn258]

Shadow9mm. The case prep center I bought is the "Frankford Arsenal Platinum Series Case Trim and Prep System". It was around 190.00 so not really cheap, but to be quite honest it does seem to work great. We have boatloads of overtime where I work too and it just won't stop. It's a Teamsters union job where I work, so they have to offer OT from the top of the seniority list and force from the bottom up.

It's a long story, but I used to be forced to work a lot more than I am now. Being that I'm over halfway up the seniority list that doesn't happen very often unless I want the overtime. I would love to hear about your government job though man? It's interesting to hear from other government workers to find similarities and differences. I take it you must be unionized where you work, or that's a guess?

I'm guessing this Frankford Arsenal System won't work as fast as an electric drill based system, but it seems fast enough. I'm going to soon be in a similar situation as you, because I want to buy at a discount some .223 brass military surplus once fired. De-swage the primer pockets and then trim them.

With trimming my Winchester green tip ammo in 223, case lengths were way over 1.75 inches which I trimmed down to. I can trim to exact length, chamfer, deburr and even clean the primer pocket with that Frankford Arsenal case prep center.

I would say I can do all three on one piece of brass in a rhythm in a short period of time, and I've timed it actually. If I'm focused I can average 3 pieces of brass per minute 100% prepped.

So you break that down, that's 180 per hour, so it would take probably 12 hours to prep 2 thousand pieces of brass with that. That said, that doesn't seem to horrible, and that would be down over the course of a few weekends just spending 3 or 4 hours doing it. The machine I'm referring to is this one specifically that I bought:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HS7JEB4/

I am noticing a pattern Shadow9mm, and that is Frankford Arsenal stuff in general seems like they have decent products. Lyman also seems to have great products too, though they seem more hit an miss. Hopefully I made a decent choice with that Frankford Arsenal prep center though?

Thus far I'm impressed, and it seems like someone thought about the product before just dishing it out. The fact that the collets etc. store inside is also great.

 

[lugerstew]

I have the Frandford Arsenal case prep machine, it is pretty good quality and does a nice job.
Two things I don't care for with it, is the left handed threads, that seems to screw me up for some reason, and also the case trimmer can really tire my hands from pushing hundreds of rounds into the cutter head with my hand.
So most the time I use my Lyman trimmer that holds the base of the shell with a camlock and then I can use a drill to run the cutter, this is a lot easier to me.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Shadow9mm. The case prep center I bought is the "Frankford Arsenal Platinum Series Case Trim and Prep System". It was around 190.00 so not really cheap, but to be quite honest it does seem to work great. We have boatloads of overtime where I work too and it just won't stop. It's a Teamsters union job where I work, so they have to offer OT from the top of the seniority list and force from the bottom up.

It's a long story, but I used to be forced to work a lot more than I am now. Being that I'm over halfway up the seniority list that doesn't happen very often unless I want the overtime. I would love to hear about your government job though man? It's interesting to hear from other government workers to find similarities and differences. I take it you must be unionized where you work, or that's a guess?

I'm guessing this Frankford Arsenal System won't work as fast as an electric drill based system, but it seems fast enough. I'm going to soon be in a similar situation as you, because I want to buy at a discount some .223 brass military surplus once fired. De-swage the primer pockets and then trim them.

With trimming my Winchester green tip ammo in 223, case lengths were way over 1.75 inches which I trimmed down to. I can trim to exact length, chamfer, deburr and even clean the primer pocket with that Frankford Arsenal case prep center.

I would say I can do all three on one piece of brass in a rhythm in a short period of time, and I've timed it actually. If I'm focused I can average 3 pieces of brass per minute 100% prepped.

So you break that down, that's 180 per hour, so it would take probably 12 hours to prep 2 thousand pieces of brass with that. That said, that doesn't seem to horrible, and that would be down over the course of a few weekends just spending 3 or 4 hours doing it. The machine I'm referring to is this one specifically that I bought:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HS7JEB4/

I am noticing a pattern Shadow9mm, and that is Frankford Arsenal stuff in general seems like they have decent products. Lyman also seems to have great products too, though they seem more hit an miss. Hopefully I made a decent choice with that Frankford Arsenal prep center though?

Thus far I'm impressed, and it seems like someone thought about the product before just dishing it out. The fact that the collets etc. store inside is also great.

A case prep station is not cheap, but can be a great tool, especially if you first stating out. I loaded 9mm and 45acp only for my first probably 7 years of reloading. After that I got into 223 and the issues with crimped primers. I am finding a lot of crimped 9mm primers here lately as well along with a few 38spl, and some blasted beridan primed 38spl that broke my decapping pin. I just set them aside after sizing and sorting to be dealt with when I have enough to do a batch.

Back when I started with my Sheriffs Office there was mandatory overtime. If you did not work 20hrs a week you were getting mandated. it went monthly by senority, then hours worked. so If I volunteered more I would not be forced to stay over or come in on my off day.

I got my brass for free from a relative. He was told to make it go away, thankfully I got to be the away part. Its rough brass though. most of it went through belt fed machine guns. most of the case mouths are smashed. I have to pry them open with a screw driver before I can even resize them.

Just remember to resize BEFORE trimming. with the trimmer that gauge off the shoulders, the size and length can change when you resize and push the shoulder back. Yes the neck grows, but if you trim first you can still wind up with brass that is too short. I would recommend measuring your brass, stuff that is in spec don't worry about initially. I use the LE wilson headspace gauge. It is NOT a cartridge checker. It will tell you if the brass will fit in your gun, basically if you have sized it enough. and if your brass is 2 long. drop a piece in, the base should be between the lines. set it on a table, brass neck should be between the lines. Calipers are just fine for this though. Its a tool I would recommend adding to your list to things to get when you can, but no rush.

The big thing I have found it to set reasonable paces, and in reasonably sized batches. I generally do 100 at a time. I find my fingers get tired and sore and it gets tedious pretty quick. like lugarstew said.

Frankford has some good things and some less good things. I do lots of research before I spend my money. I have several of their tools including their wet tumbler, loading trays, calipers, seating die and several others. Wet tumbling it amazing, you saw my 9mm brass, looks like new. But it is a lot more work, and waiting for brass to dry. Vibratory with walnut works just as well, the brass just does not look as pretty.

heres johnnies review of the frankford trimmer for the drill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz-KJ-5GL4U

I am considering a couple, but will probably end up with the Giraud one for my drill.

Best thing I can tell you is if you decide you want a tool, read reviews, watch lots of vids and keep your mind open to different brands. I have had great luck with most of the things I have bought from most of the brands. an a few, like the worlds finest trimmer, that were a total headache to adjust.

 

[Metal god]

GOT THIS NEW CORRECTION PAPER TARGET WHICH I ASSUME IS FOR US GUYS THAT CAN NOT SHOOT ONE HOLE GRUOPS AT 25yds WITH OUR HAND GUNS
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[adn258]

Thanks for all the help Shadow9mm and everyone. I've definitely resized all the brass through the press first before trimming. That said, I think my process for .223 is going to be deprime only an then tumble/clean. Then swage primer pockets before resizing and then finally trimming. I have used this swage tool from Dillon with already resized brass, but I don't like how the head of the brass gets pressed somewhat hard, so I think to be on the safe side swage first then resize, though it's not technically incorrect to resize and then swage then resize.

I've also noticed these 9mm annoying pieces of brass that must have crimped pockets since seating primers is a pain. Sellier and Bellot it seems do this on their brass which is totally pointless as far as I'm concerned. In any case, I need to get (and now that I have the Dillon tool) the swage adapter heads for pistol brass 9mm and 38 spl almost specifically.

 

[Unclenick]

If you swage 223 regularly, you'll find the plastic inserts from Inline Fabrication expensive but useful to center the cases up. Saves you the odd oblong hole from when you start the ram out of synch with your insertion of the brass into the swager.

 

[Unclenick]

MG,

Someone posted a slightly different version of that in 2016. I'll put it up. I Like your addition of "Leave the Range" in the corners, though, based on what I've seen beginning shooters do to would target frames in the past, if that qualified for getting booted, some of them would never have got enough shooting in to begin to become competent iin the game.