Case length giving me different COAL for 9mm and other issues reloading?

44amp
I would be mighty curious to see the results of a seating depth test in a service grade and match handgun in a ransom rest. Take a load with a good SD and push the bullet back in 0.003 increments, assuming your pistol bullets were even consistent enough to matter. see how much it really effects handguns. I have always surmised that with the shorter barrel, barrel harmonics and thus the jump to the lands made little no no difference in handguns.
 
So I might be breaking the topic, but I have another gun Shadow 9mm and I talked about awhile ago in an old post. It's a 223/5.56 Stag Super Varminator. It has a huge barrel 24 inches long with a 1/8 twist.

Stag says it's half MOA gun. That wouldn't surprise me. Last time at the range I was getting 1 MOA about with factory green tip Winchester 5.56mm ammo. In the Stag half MOA tests they use 75gr HPBT match grade ammo from Sierra King.

I bought 75gr HPBT Hornady Match bullets with Ramshot Tac powder. I'm reloading these once fired Winchester pieces of brass.

I also bought Hornady Match factory ammo 75gr BTHP. They're like $1.25 a round which is insane. This could definitely be a money saver too reloading these, as reloads would cost half or less this much, even with reloading component costs now. I bought a couple boxes of the factory Hornady Match though just to see if I can beat it.

In any case, I've already got the Winchester brass trimmed to 1.75 inches chamfer deburred and the primer pockets and brass are clean. I'm sort of following the factory specs of the factory Hornady ammo first which is 1.75 inches brass with 2.25 inches COL. I was thinking I could get away with 2.255 .005 inches longer later for better ammo perhaps after I test this

In any case, I'm sort of having the same problem again with the 9mm. I think Ramshot Tac will be great for this, but I can't find load data for a charge for 75gr BTHP by Hornady. According to Gordon's and some googling in other forms I see 22grs for a good starting charge.

I'm thinking the magic is 22-23.5 grains Ramshot TAC. Any ideas on this one guys? Am I on the right track here?
 
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adn258 said:
So I might be breaking the topic, but I have another gun Shadow 9mm and I talked about awhile ago in an old post. It's a 223/5.56 Stag Super Varminator. It has a huge barrel 24 inches long with a 1/8 twist.

Stag says it's half MOA gun. That wouldn't surprise me. Last time at the range I was getting 1 MOA about with factory green tip Winchester 5.56mm ammo. In the Stag half MOA tests they use 75gr HPBT match grade ammo from Sierra King.

I bought 75gr HPBT Hornady Match bullets with Ramshot Tac powder. I'm reloading these once fired Winchester pieces of brass.

I also bought Hornady Match factory ammo 75gr BTHP. They're like $1.25 a round which is insane. This could definitely be a money saver too reloading these, as reloads would cost half or less this much, even with reloading component costs now. I bought a couple boxes of the factory Hornady Match though just to see if I can beat it.

In any case, I've already got the Winchester brass trimmed to 1.75 inches chamfer deburred and the primer pockets and brass are clean. I'm sort of following the factory specs of the factory Hornady ammo first which is 1.75 inches brass with 2.25 inches COL. I was thinking I could get away with 2.255 .005 inches longer later for better ammo perhaps after I test this

In any case, I'm sort of having the same problem again with the 9mm. I think Ramshot Tac will be great for this, but I can't find load data for a charge for 75gr BTHP by Hornady. According to Gordon's and some googling in other forms I see 22grs for a good starting charge.

I'm thinking the magic is 22-23.5 grains Ramshot TAC. Any ideas on this one guys? Am I on the right track here?
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https://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB.pdf

On page 50 of the document itself, page 52 in PDF doccument. they have specific data for ramshot tac, and the 75g Hornady OTM bullets

When looking for a load, don't forget to check the bullet makers data, and the powder maker data.

My process for rifle data is this. load at the bullet makers recommended COL in this case 2.250. The max COL for the cartridge is also 2.260, and that is the max length to fit in the magazine and feed properly. You could seat to 2.260 however too close to the lands can also increase pressure and cause pressure spikes, and again, does not necessarily increase accuracy. If a bullet manufacturer recommends a specific COL there is generally a reason for it. Typically for hunting guns you want a minimum of 0.020 off the lands for reliability and to prevent pressure spikes. Again, see the vides from Eric cortina, I liked them at the bottom again. closer to the lands is not always better, and IMHO is somewhat irrelevant.

I would then work up the load from start using westerns load data for this exact bullet combination.
Start 21.7g at 2582 FPS
Max 24.1g at 2820

So I would work up 1 round each. fire them. look for pressure signs. see how they act in your gun. Obviously stop if you start running into pressure signs you are not comfortable with. If I hit flowed for cratered primers I stop and back off.

21.7
22.2
22.7
23.2
23.7
24.1

after testing for pressure, I work back down, same increments, shooting groups of 7-10 over the chronograph looking for a good stable velocity window.

After I find a good velocity point. I do a seating depth test. I start at my COL. then work back in 0.003 increments. The only good way to do this is with a micrometer seating die in my experience. and the hornady bullet comparitor to measure.

so in this case, 5rnds each
2.250
2.247
2.244
2.241
2.238
2.235
2.232
2.229

what I look for is open groups, groups closing up, then opening up again. I select the smallest group. if i have 2-3 good groups i choose the one closest to the rifling. Since the rifling wears over time as the bullet gets farther away, it will still be in the sweet spot.

Last time I did this I took my TC Compass in 30-06 that would at best do 1.1moa, and typically did 1.5 to 2, down to 0.75moa, just by adjusting seating depth.

I don't care how far off the lands I am. Just that the bullets are coming out consistently. and that I can measure, from a point on the ogive, where I put them, so I can put them there again.

These 2 vids explain explain my bullet seating methodology.
Chasing the lands is STUPID! Don't do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRXlCG9YZbQ

Chasing the lands is STUPID: Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FKq8Jj8YEI

That is how I do things, and why. It has worked well for me. Check from start to max for safety. Work back down to preserve as much velocity as possible while finding a good velocity window. lastly tune the seating depth to a consistent point in the barrels harmonics. There are lots of rabbit holes you can god down, and nuances to get into. I went down a LOT of them. In the end, after lots of fiddling, tinkering, and frustration, this is what has worked best for me.

Also here is a video from Johnnies reloading bench. I really enjoy his channel. he tests the Hornady 75g OTM with 19 powders, one of which is ramshot TAC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LkMYUdh6mQ


He also has a video series, where he attempts to duplicate the performance of the MK262 Mod 1 military match ammo. video 6 is testing with TAC. while not the 75g hornady, it is a reasonably similar 77g OTM bullet. And a most excellent series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iirWnaWjhc&list=PLTTrjvDib94ly8_5jqnedzK6bhXWzZyVl
 
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Thanks for all that Shadow9mm. Those are tools I'll look into and I forgot the load was listed on the Ramehot TAC website for the powder. 22grs should be a not bad starting point. I think I did read that there actually and forgot about the website
 
adn258 said:
Thanks for all that Shadow9mm. Those are tools I'll look into and I forgot the load was listed on the Ramehot TAC website for the powder. 22grs should be a not bad starting point. I think I did read that there actually and forgot about the website
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No worries. I'm used to checking multiple sources, it's become a habit. I have paper copies for lee, lyman, and speer. Digital copies of hornady, sierra, and vithuvori. Check hodgdon, and have pdfs of western and accurate and a few others. Takes time to build your library and resources.

I have found the hornady bullet comparator to be a great way to measure ammo. If you measure the same bullets to the point, the measurements are much less consistent then measuring off of the ogive.

I got the frankford universal micrometer die. Reasonable price, multiple calibers. So nice to just drop the bullet in the top and go.

Imho both are worth the money, and I wish I had gotten both sooner. You can do it without the micrometer die, the hornady tool is needed, it's just a lot more trial and error adjusting without the die.
 
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Thanks Shadow9mm. A couple things more I'll say, I thought the max COL for.223 was 2.26? I'm getting 2.26 everywhere I look.

In any case, it looks like 22grs is not a bad start for this. These tools look valuable, but one thing I want to note is, I don't want to spend a million bucks to get the "most accurate ammo". As long as it shoots reasonably well (sub-moa) with reasonable reliability, and most of all safely, that's my main concern right now. I don't have to get everything accurate to the 1000ths, and it sounds like these pressure changes aren't dangerous that you are talking about with the landsz unless you're already pushing things?

A good friend of mine also into shooting, once told me a story. He was already getting half MOA to .7 moa out of his rifle. He went to a store and a guy told him he could get more accuracy by buying abc product. I can't even remember what it was.

My friend told him, I'm already getting 0.5 to 0.7 MOA, how much more accuracy do I NEED. The sales guy said, "good point". ������

I guess that's my point. I'm not sure yet, but if I'm already getting 1 MOA with crappy Winchester Green Dot, something tells me I'll get sub-moa with decently accurate reloads.

If I can get that out of this AR, how much more "accuracy" do I need, and how much more accurate do I need to be? Maybe only I can answer that, but you see my point? Safe, accurate, and reliable are important, but the accuracy doesn't have to be 100% top notch by spending loads of money.

I would only need to be that accurate it seems doing special matches or something lol. Still, maybe these tools you just mentioned are worth it, but are they needed?
 
Max is 2.260. I miss typed, but corrected it. My apologies.

Some rifles shoot better than others. Some rifles are finicky about bullets or seating depths, some are easy and forgiving. Most of my experience has been with the former unfortunately.

In my experience with rifle ammo consistency is the name of the game. And it's hard to be consistent if you can't measure what your doing. I have found open tip match bullets to be very consistent from ogive to cartridge base, but not point to catridge base. Thus if you set up and run 100rnds you can get good consistent ammo from that lot. But when you have to set up again to run another batch can you duplicate the settings?

I'm on a budget as well, no unlimited funds here. Gotta save up to get my tools.

The hornady bullet comparator is needed in my opinion. But that's not a decision I can make for you.. Not saying you have to run out and drop cash on it now. If you decide you should have one just start putting back a few bucks here and there when you can, buy it when your able.

The frankford universal seater is a want. But a very useful tool. Set it up high. Seat a bullet. Measure, then adjust the dial, done. No more seat a bullet, screw it in a little. Repeat several times. Also with the window you drop the bullet in and go. No more trying to hold a bullet in the mouth trying to line things up and not smash your fingers. In the end though a want. But one that will make setup easier, and production faster. Will ot make your ammo more accurate, no. Will it make it easier to make your ammo yes.

Holding 1moa is a reasonable ask if the gun is capable, which yours seems to be. But getting the gun to do it may not be as simple. Only one way to find out.

You asked my advise and how I would proceed, you have it. I know it seems like a lot just to work a load up. However after fighting with things from multiple directions and chasing my tail too many times I wanted a step by step process I could just follow to get good ammo. 3 range trips and done. And with it being a 2hr round trip to the range for me I want productive range trips.

I hope things go smoothly and better than they did for me. You have extra options now on how to build a load and sort out problems if you run into them. Let us know how the workup goes.
 
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I would be mighty curious to see the results of a seating depth test in a service grade and match handgun in a ransom rest.
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I don't see the need (and expense) of a Ransom rest, to get a general idea, all you need is someone who's a decent shot from a bench.

I will caution you, when you state "match grade handgun" to me that covers a lot, and takes you right into bolt action rifle territory.

My XP-100 is what I consider a match grade handgun. And I'll put my T/C Contenders up there too. Also, there are guns like the Auto Mag, Wildey, and Desert Eagles that don't have tilting barrels and are capable of accuracy most people don't realize.

Its not so much that some handguns won't benefit from some advanced loading techniques, its that most won't and most people won't, either.

I've got my Dad's Govt Model, worked over for target use in the late 60s. With MY handloads (straight from the book 200gr swc, no special tricks or techniques) in MY hands, from a bench I've gotten 5 shots in one hole at 25yds. The hole was a bit over 2inches but it was one hole, all bullets overlapping.

I don't think one could do better than that without a seriously different kind of gun, no matter what you did to the ammo in terms of seating depth.

I could "chase the lands" with mu 9mm Contender, but I don't bother. With the ammo I load for my Luger it already outshoots every 9mm I've ever put it up against, for group size. Not so good on speed shooting though...:D

some guns are "short leade" in the sense that as soon as you get past standard max COAL you're crowding the rifling. Other guns don't let the bullet near the rifling until you are past the point where it will fit in the magazine or cylinder.

I think shooter skill, trigger, sights, and fundamental accuracy of the gun matter more than a few thousandths difference in distance off the rifling.
 
44 AMP said:
I've got my Dad's Govt Model, worked over for target use in the late 60s. With MY handloads (straight from the book 200gr swc, no special tricks or techniques) in MY hands, from a bench I've gotten 5 shots in one hole at 25yds. The hole was a bit over 2inches but it was one hole, all bullets overlapping.

I don't think one could do better than that without a seriously different kind of gun, no matter what you did to the ammo in terms of seating depth.
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So a person with a 1911 is not capable of shooting better than that? They need a different type of gun? What gun do you suggest?
 
Thanks Shadow9mm and everyone. I agree with you Shadow, those tools do seem quite helpful, especially the Hornady bullet measure. Actually, they are both quite helpful and not very expensive now that I look at this. The Frankford arsenal seater is very helpful too for easily getting back to a seating depth that is consistent and marked.

I can see what you mean about this. The Hornady tool for measuring distance to the lands is helpful. To start with I'm going to try some loads at 22grs as planned Shadow with this AR and go from there. I'm sort of trying to mimic Hornady's match grade ammo, only altering the powder being Ramshot TAC and the grains.
 
Hornady has several tools. I have the hornady bullet comparator , and the overall all length gauge.

The over all length gauge is a want imho. I personally rarely use mine. The lands erode over time as you shoot. Trying to measure a point in the gun that will always be changing is not very useful in my opinion. The only benefit it has is you can check to make sure your not too close to the lands, but I have yet to find a load in a manual that is. Of the 3 tools we have talked about, this one would be at the bottom of my list. And I regret buying one, which is why I did not mention it previously.
 
44 AMP said:
How do you get better than putting all your shots in the same hole???

:confused:
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You said the group measured a bit over 2inches but it was one hole.

The 2" thing is what matters, not the arrangement of the hits. You understand that, right? I guess not.

Extreme spread is the way we measure accuracy. 2" isn't that great for a 5-shot group. It's okay, but there's a lot of improvement possible. 2" would be very good for a 50-shot group.
 
The 2" thing is what matters,
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Clearly it matters to you. I don't consider it bad shooting. Had I done the exact same thing with a .22 the group would be slightly less than an inch.

My point was, with that gun, in my hands I don't see how adjusting the bullet seating to be closer to the rifling would make any significant difference.
 
44 AMP said:
Clearly it matters to you.
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Me and the rest of the world. Articles on accuracy don't use the number of shots that were touching as their criteria for accuracy. It might be mentioned but it's meaningless.

The true measure is the extreme spread.
 
The extreme spread is only a measure of how far apart the worst performers in the group were, and they don't represent the most typical point of impact. If you want to know how the gun will perform typically or on average, you want the radial standard deviation or the CEP50, neither of which you can measure without keeping track of where every individual round lands.
 
More bad news on my part and beginner crap. So I was using a hopper awhile ago for handgun loads. I thought I remember THROUGHLY cleaning out the hopper. I used this same hopper for around 30 rounds of AR ammo to try first using different grains of Ramshot TAC. Then I started wondering if I didn't shake the old handgun powder out, and it got mixed with the rifle power I.E. Ramshot?

I honestly think some of this is paranoia, I pulled a couple bullets using the bullet puller to check, and I see zero pellets or evidence of any of the handgun powder getting mixed in. I think I need to make a better mental note of this stuff though for sure. I will say the Ramshot got stuck all throughout the hopper. I thoroughly got all the tiny grains of powder out of the hopper. Took it apart, banged them out etc. visually checked with the flashlight. It's clear now and ready for use with the next powder.
 
2" would be very good for a 50-shot group.
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It would indeed be very good, 2" for 50 shots at 25yds?....Please, show me the iron sighted 5" semiauto .45acp not fired from a rest, and the shooter that can do that.
 
44 AMP said:
It would indeed be very good, 2" for 50 shots at 25yds?....Please, show me the iron sighted 5" semiauto .45acp not fired from a rest, and the shooter that can do that.
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There was no stipulation that it could not be from a rest. (You report that your group was fired from a bench i.e. a rest).

Rigorous accuracy testing removes the shooter from the process and the gun is held in a mechanical rest. A person introduces all sorts of error such as flinching, trigger control, poor eyesight.

In fact, a 2” 50-shot group at 25 yards would be a very good group from a Ransom Rest, since not all guns or ammo are capable of doing that. But keeping all those shots in that group size demonstrates that the gun (and ammo) are very consistent.

Are ALL your 5-shot groups at 25 yards with your .45 1911 at 2”? Or, using your criteria, are ALL your 5-shot groups into “one hole”?
 
Apologies for not writing "machine rest" and no, not all my groups are that good, but that's ME more than the gun.

Removing the shooter from the process gives you information about what the gun and ammo can do by themselves. Useful only in the abstract for me, useful in the practical for someone who is doing gun and ammo testing.

I think a 2" group at 25yds from an iron sighted pistol is pretty good, means the most any shot will be off exact point of aim is an inch, and I'm at the point in life where I can't really see one inch at 25yds anymore. :rolleyes:

30 years ago, I was better. Today, I am where I am, with the "glorious results of a mis-spent youth" finally catching up to me.

All the shooter induced errors are mine, and mine alone, but since I'm involved, what my guns can do by themselves isn't that important to me.

(and just to be clear, my Dad's gun, which he bought used in the early 70s and I inherited in 2003 is a Colt Government Model .45ACP. Previous owner had a trigger job and Micro adjustable sights done to it in the late 60s. Otherwise, its a straight stock production gun)
 
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