Case length giving me different COAL for 9mm and other issues reloading?

A

adn258

New member
So I'm newer to reloading. Not new to owning guns but reloading specifically. In any case, I have a Redding T-7 press. Got a bunch of 9mm brass in good condition once fired.

I notice that cases can vary in length from 0.0.745 to like 0.754 with the brass. This seems to be the acceptable length, but I'm loading Berry's 124gr bullets to A COAL of 1.16.

If the brass is different length, wouldn't that affect the case overall length? Perhaps I'm wrong and it doesn't, but rather it affects the seating depths. From what I understand it does NOT effect coal but rather the bullet is more or less unseated; this must change pressure somewhat?

In any case, I'm super paranoid reloading.. I'm worried something is going to blow up. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm loading these Berry's 124gr with 4.9grs of powder from VV340. There is no load manual that uses this exact bullet with this exact powder, but I've been using Gordon's Reloading Software. With a coal the pressure at 4.9grs VV340 is below the max threshold by a decent amount.

I've fired some already and I notice no signs of overpressure and a velocity of around 1100fps pretty normal for 9mm.

Anyway, I'm noticing case overall lengths of anywhere from 1.165 to 1.6 to 1.55. Should this be a major cause of concern for handgun ammo? Am I being overly paranoid?
 
Vihtavouri does indeed have load data for Berry's 124 bullets - max 4.1 for N340. Just Google it.

Regards your case length: No, it should not affect COL. That is set by your seating die. That said, best consistency and accuracy will be obtained when you trim those cases to a uniform length.

Are you going to damage your pistol with these loads? I doubt it. But Vihtavouri was only running Barry's at 980, so your load may not be optimal.
 
I'd bet most that variation comes from variation in the physical bullet lengths. Measure a bunch and I'm sure you'll notice they'll all over the place. You mainly run into it more loading rifle, so for they were measure to the ogive of the bullet for critical dimensions and only use oal to make sure it will fit in things like magazines.

I assume you mean your variations range from 1.165 down to 1.155? Which is 1.160 +/-.005 which I'd say is fine

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
The SAAMI standard for 9 mm Luger cases is 0.744" to 0.754". Chamber headspace is 0.754" to 0.776". Most are probably around 0.760" or so. This means any case up to that greater length would be OK, but you would want to measure your chamber to be sure your 0.755" cases are OK in it.

To do that, use your barrel as the gauge. Take it out of the gun and, holding it muzzle-down, drop a loaded round into the chamber that you know the case length of, and measure how much distance it is below flush with the back end of the barrel. Add that distance to the known length of the case on that cartridge and you will have the maximum case length your gun will tolerate.

One thing a long case will do is engage the crimp die sooner as the round goes up into it. This will increase crimp tightness. But if you are using the usual taper crimp, that whole 0.010" tolerance for the 9mm Parabellum will be usable. With a roll crimp, it is more critical.

You can trim your long cases, but if they fit the gun, just shoot them and see if they get a tiny bit shorter each time you have finished resizing them. Lower pressure rounds like the 45 ACP do. 9 mm pressures are a little closer to what sticks a case to the chamber, though, so they may not or they may even grow slightly. if they grow, you can trim them. The Lee trimmer and case gauge tools will let you do it cheaply. A motorized tool will let you do a large volume, and there is everything in-between available.
 
ligonierbill I'm not seeing this? I've checked VVw website and they have load data for Berry's HB Hollow body 124gr bullets. I'm using Berry's 124 FMJ RN plated bullets. There is no load data for 125 FMJ RN plated unless I'm missing something here? There are similar bullets and Gordon's software not trying to figure it out. 4.9grs I was using if max was 4.1 I have a feeling the gun would have blown up by now. Unless I'm missing something? Also VVs website has bullets seated to 4.14 COAL and I'm using 4.16 per Berry's recommendation
 
No, your gun won't blow up with that difference in charge. But there must be a reason Vihtavouri is loading to a relatively low velocity. Contact them and ask. On the other hand, are you getting good accuracy? Not flinging your cases into next week? Then you're good. I might be wrong, but these are target bullets, yes? Could be the Finns are just loading for accuracy and low recoil.
 
adn258 said:
ligonierbill I'm not seeing this? I've checked VVw website and they have load data for Berry's HB Hollow body 124gr bullets. I'm using Berry's 124 FMJ RN plated bullets. There is no load data for 125 FMJ RN plated unless I'm missing something here? There are similar bullets and Gordon's software not trying to figure it out. 4.9grs I was using if max was 4.1 I have a feeling the gun would have blown up by now. Unless I'm missing something? Also VVs website has bullets seated to 4.14 COAL and I'm using 4.16 per Berry's recommendation
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Berry's are not FMJ. They are plated.

VV's max for Berry's 124 HBRNTP is 4.9 for N340 for 1.142" OAL. Berry's OAL suggestion is 1.160".
 
Thanks everyone for the help here I really appreciate it. Again, I don't have the hollow body 124gr bullets. I have the standard plates 124gr round nose not hollow ones.

Perhaps that doesn't matter in terms of charge weight? Seated less than VVs 1.142 to 1.16 has got to be safe around 4.9 grains VV240 you would think no matter what? In any case, I was reusing my brass and it had a length of 0.75 almost exactly and seating these to 1.16 was giving me great accuracy.

The cases were ejecting far though. Beyond that I didn't see any signs of overpressure.

Now that I have picked up range cases that are down to even 0.745 I am nervous. What should I do?
 
typo fix

adn258 said:
So I'm newer to reloading. Not new to owning guns but reloading specifically. In any case, I have a Redding T-7 press. Got a bunch of 9mm brass in good condition once fired.

I notice that cases can vary in length from 0.0.745 to like 0.754 with the brass. This seems to be the acceptable length, but I'm loading Berry's 124gr bullets to A COAL of 1.16.

If the brass is different length, wouldn't that affect the case overall length? Perhaps I'm wrong and it doesn't, but rather it affects the seating depths. From what I understand it does NOT effect coal but rather the bullet is more or less unseated; this must change pressure somewhat?

In any case, I'm super paranoid reloading.. I'm worried something is going to blow up. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm loading these Berry's 124gr with 4.9grs of powder from VV340. There is no load manual that uses this exact bullet with this exact powder, but I've been using Gordon's Reloading Software. With a coal the pressure at 4.9grs VV340 is below the max threshold by a decent amount.

I've fired some already and I notice no signs of overpressure and a velocity of around 1100fps pretty normal for 9mm.

Anyway, I'm noticing case overall lengths of anywhere from 1.165 to 1.6 to 1.55. Should this be a major cause of concern for handgun ammo? Am I being overly paranoid?
Click to expand...

I have had similar issue. I will try and answer your question and relate what I ran into.

Case length is a max of 0.754, and if you trim, trimmed back to 0.749 I have never found it cost or time effective to trim 9mm brass, but have never found any over length either. I use the EGW gauge to check my brass 50pcs at a time. They check case length, as well as loaded ammo. they have a 7 hole gauge for $20 and a 50 hole gauge for $100. The gauges are tight, minimum saami specs. But I really like them and I find it a lot faster to gauge all my sized brass and loaded brass when running batches of 1000 than using calipers. But my goal is factory like ammo, that is fired out of several guns.https://www.egwguns.com/chamber-checkers/?casegauge=856

COL, cartridge overall length. This is measured from the base of the case to the top of the bullet. It is not effected by the case length. When you load a cartridge your die pushed on the bullet and case base, the length of the brass itself does not matter. Also berrys does recommend a COL of 1.160 for these bullet with 9mm. I personally have had better luck loading them at 1.150. As long as you are under max COL of 1.169 and not overly compressing your loads you will be fine. you have room to work in.

Your load you will not always find an exact load. The important thing with the berry's bullet is not to push them over 1250fps, per berrys.

My lee manual has data for 124g plated bullets and N340
COL 1.142
start 4.7 at 1096fps
Max 5.3 at 1171fps

It also has data for 124g FMJ bullets and N340
COL 1.142
Start 5.3 at 1158
Max 5.8 at 1233

I would say you are well within the safe range and could push higher as long as you don't exceed the 1250fps range.

COL swings most dies for 9mm seat the bullet off of the ogive. I suspect that the ogives are inconsistent, that the curve of the bullet is not consistent, thus the seater contacts each bullet at a slightly different point on the ogive causing these seating depth inconsistencies. I have 2 options. Ignore the seating depth issues, as I have found they cause minimal issues when shooting the ammo. Or use a flat seater, intended for hollow points or was cutter type bullets as they will make the COL correct every time, but may slightly flatten the top of the bullet.

I hope this helps. I have had similar issues with the berry's, but over all they are an acceptable budget bullet for my uses.
 
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On Vihtavuoris app they have a bunch of 124 grain bullets and the max charges range from 4.9 to 5.9 grains with N340 depending on the exact bullet. The berrys hollow base round nose uses 4.9 as the max.

Assuming the nose is the same profile the hollow base and regular bullet will have the same amount of bullet inside the case.

I wouldn’t be too worried about hurting your gun at 4.9. FWIW the Hornady FMJ 124 bullet has a starting charge of 5.3 grains.
 
Thanks RedDog and Shadow9mm. You're both legends on here. I've been into guns for a long while, but just now getting into reloading. I understand the basics, but have made a ton of amateur errors. Nothing dangerous thus far, just things like opening up a powder measure internally and spilling residual powder out of that (not being careful or refined).

Got a primer stuck in a case sideways and couldn't get the round out of the shell holder. Various stuff like this from lack of experience. I even charged a round once without a primer where the powder spilled out of the flash hole. Yes you can laugh at me :).

In any case, I went through this brass at the range. Instead of worrying about trimming pistol brash which I agree is a waste of time (totally unlike rifle rounds like .223 which have to be trimmed), I went through and using my calipers set aside the 9mm brass that's 0.744 (which I've been reading online is the minimum) and 0.751.

None of them were too long, but many of the cases were 0.74 or even 0.739. Is using cases like these that are too short dangerous or something to worry about?

My thoughts are, 9mm brass is easy to come by at my range. So maybe just keep the brass that's between 0.744 and 0.751. This means all your brass will only be about one 200th of an inch off in length from round to round. I feel like if I needed more accuracy than that, I would just buy new brass. I also get this isn't quite as good as finding longer cases and trimming them all to say exactly 0.75 inches, but again seems like a waste of time and energy in this case.

The problem is, there is no fix is cases that are too short. If you have a bunch of cases that are 0.755 inches you can trim them down to 0.75 but you can't trim up a case that's 0.74. Maybe I'm still wrong to recycle/discard these shorter cases?

Again, I really appreciate the help, and I really appreciate your assurances about me more than likely picking a safe charge amount Shadow9mm. Based on everything I can find, and looking at all the similar bullets, I have to deduce that it's safe by a decent margin with room for small errors.

Shadow9mm and others here, have you used Gordon's Reloading Software? It's free, and it appears to be quite accurate. You input case lengths, the bullets etc. and it tells you the estimated feet per second, foot pounds of energy etc. and whether the load is dangerous or close to max. Sorry for the long reply, but I'm really getting into this! :)
 
I see a couple issues with 9mm brass being too short, but they are minimal.

Less bullet grip. When pushing the bullet into the case, the case is shorter. So while the COL will be the same, there will be less bullet in the case. Best guess would be a small inconsistencies in velocity.

Crimp, not sure if you crimp. I flare my case mouths slightly to make seating easier and reduce the chances of gouging bullets. Thus I crimp to get the mouth back to, or just under 0.380 to ensure good feeding. If you crimp and your die is adjusted for longer brass it will result in a lighter crimp. This gives 2 possibilities small inconsistencies in velocitiy, or possible feeding problems if the mouth is too wide. Thus is again why I gauge all my ammo after loading. And I can measure it if it fails and see why without having to measure every round.

Lastly is possible headspace issues. 9mm head spaces off the case mouth. 0.009 short is the shortest I understand, below trim to length? I see 2 possible issues, but I don't think they will be an issue. 1 is the possibility of the round not going off, or a light strike. When fired the firing pin pushes the case forward into the head space as it is striking the primer. With a shorter case it would get pushed further in and possibly transfer less energy to the primer. Giving the possibility of a light strike, but unlikely in my opinion. Possibility 2, is the bullet getting pushed into the lands as the COL is identical, but the brass is shorter there is more bullet hanging out the front. You could check this by loading a dummy with a short case, no powder no primer, and doing the plunk test. Worst case shorter your COL to 1.150, or Lee's recommend 1.142.

I tried Gordon's. I put in known load data from my manuals and I got inconsistent results. And seeing as I generally run near max, I stick with manuals. I know Lee gets a lot of flak, but it is by far the best/most useful manual I have ever bought, and I have 7..... I would love to get quickload some day, but I have never been able to justify the expense. And even that is not 100%.

By the way, I have spilled powder more than a few times. Threw pistol powder in a rifle powder jug and mixed them last year. Had to toss a half pound of benchmark. Only keep one container out at a time, broke my rule. Seated primers sideways and upside down before. Take your time, be methodical. Your doing just fine.
 
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adn258: I meet a lot of people like you, saying the same things you are saying.

You are loading at HUGE/near max OAL for 9MM. 1.160. That is giant. Most 9 MM loads are average about 1.12 I would say. HP's range from 1.060 to 1.130 and round nose is usually around 1.145 or so. Average.

4.9 grains of N340 is a joke. This is nothing (for a 124 grain).

I REGULARLY shoot over 6 grains of N340 using 124 bullets with SHORTER OAL.

I have all the VV load books. Even the first edition. Guess what. the OFFICIAL load book has max N340 using 124 grain at 1.145....drum roll.....OVER 6 grains max. The MINIMUM is similar than the maximum in today's load book. Was VV just not educated and didn't test and stupid in the 80's?

How come thousands of people are not maimed or dead with no faces? Because people were using, and ARE using that load data, including me, even today.

Let me also inform you. case length? almost meaningless within reason. All it does is impact neck tension and runout, and other fine things, you don't care about for plinking plates,..etc.

If you want to learn about N340 try this link
http://www.natoreloading.com/n340/

So to get more comfortable, just gain experience. Make 10 rounds of progressively higher loads, shoot it, measure brass, inspect for pressure, learn about pressure...

I do not suggest you do this with fast powders..like TG, or Red Dot, or N320, or Sport Pistol, or Bullseye. But with N340? You can go up.

What will happen with faster powders when you go up too high, is it will feel like a strong jolt, and the case will bulge, and primer will pop, etc.

You will get more comfortable with experience, I hope. It ruins the experience, if your just paranoid all the time. Not enjoyable.

Good luck
 
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adn258 said:
So I'm newer to reloading. Not new to owning guns but reloading specifically. In any case, I have a Redding T-7 press. Got a bunch of 9mm brass in good condition once fired.

I notice that cases can vary in length from 0.0.745 to like 0.754 with the brass. This seems to be the acceptable length, but I'm loading Berry's 124gr bullets to A COAL of 1.16.

If the brass is different length, wouldn't that affect the case overall length? Perhaps I'm wrong and it doesn't, but rather it affects the seating depths. From what I understand it does NOT effect coal but rather the bullet is more or less unseated; this must change pressure somewhat?

In any case, I'm super paranoid reloading.. I'm worried something is going to blow up. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm loading these Berry's 124gr with 4.9grs of powder from VV340. There is no load manual that uses this exact bullet with this exact powder, but I've been using Gordon's Reloading Software. With a coal the pressure at 4.9grs VV340 is below the max threshold by a decent amount.

I've fired some already and I notice no signs of overpressure and a velocity of around 1100fps pretty normal for 9mm.

Anyway, I'm noticing case overall lengths of anywhere from 1.165 to 1.6 to 1.55. Should this be a major cause of concern for handgun ammo? Am I being overly paranoid?
Click to expand...
Did you mean 1.160", 1.165" and 1.155"? Your opening post suggests a half inch of variance in you overall length. A half inch variance would be pretty extreme and I seriously doubt that the longer ones would fit into the magazine.
 
9MMand223only:

We were all new reloaders once. I know I was worried about blowing my gun up or face off starting out. It takes time to learn the feel of your equipment as well as how certain powders act. IMHO I think its a very good thing for new loaders to be cautious and ask whatever questions they need to to have a good understanding of how things work rather than just follow the steps in the manual and be unsure.

On a side note, berrys reccomeds a COL of 1.160 for this bullet on their web site. I agree I feel it's a bit on the long side, as well but as long as it fits in the mag and passes a plunk test it really does not matter.
 
Lastly is possible headspace issues. 9mm head spaces off the case mouth. 0.009 short is the shortest I understand, below trim to length? I see 2 possible issues, but I don't think they will be an issue. 1 is the possibility of the round not going off, or a light strike. When fired the firing pin pushes the case forward into the head space as it is striking the primer. With a shorter case it would get pushed further in and possibly transfer less energy to the primer. Giving the possibility of a light strike, but unlikely in my opinion. Possibility 2, is the bullet getting pushed into the lands as the COL is identical, but the brass is shorter there is more bullet hanging out the front. You could check this by loading a dummy with a short case, no powder no primer, and doing the plunk test. Worst case shorter your COL to 1.150, or Lee's recommend 1.142.
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While this is fairly accurate, you're forgetting how different guns work.

I couldn't find where the OP mentions what gun(s) he's shooting 9mm from. But different ones work slightly differently and different things are issues, or "no never minds".

Yes, the 9mm headspaces off the case mouth. And, yes, too short a case can put it too far forward for a good firing pin hit, in SOME guns. Guns where the case rim is not held by the extractor, such as a single action revolver.

With semi autos, there are two basic methods during feeding. One, where the case rim slides up under the extactor as it chambers. This is similar in principle to the classic Mauser rifle "controlled round feeding", and in those guns, a slightly short case won't make any difference.

When the firing pin hits, the case can only move as far forward as the hook of the extractor allows, and that is normally a very small amount that has no significant "cushioning" effect on the firing pin strike.

The other style is where the extractor snaps over the case rim in the last moment of forward bolt movement. With these guns, a too short case MIGHT be pushed too deep into the chamber. Or it might not, it will depend on the individual short case (how short) and the factors of the individual gun's extractor (nose angle, spring tension, etc.)

This is something the "plunk test" will NOT show you.

You are loading at HUGE OAL for 9MM. 1.160. That is giant.
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I disagree. Max COAL is 1,169". Any and everything that length or shorter should work through the magazine and action just fine. Its not huge, its not giant, just because its closer to max than many other lengths (with probably shorter bullets??)

And, as to different case lengths affecting bullet tension, yes, BUT, look at the practical side of things. You mention a case length difference of 0.009". Nine THOUSANDTHS of an inch...or less. While it might be measurable, how much difference in grip do you think that's going to make?

Compare that difference to how much of the bullet is inside the case.

Always remember that there is a difference between a measurable amount and a significant amount, and understand the other factors involved that make one into the other, or not.

There is a range of tolerances in everything gun related. Just because some point of your ammo is not spot on the listed spec does not automatically mean its dangerous. It may not even be significant.

Good Luck, be safe, but don't lose any sleep over a tiny, tiny variance, unless there is nothing in your life more deserving of losing sleep over. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for all of this help guys. So even the longer 1.165 inch rounds are fitting into my Glock magazine and seem to be doing fine. 9mm&223only made some really good points. It sounds like 4.9grs is almost too low for this lol.

That said, what's wrong with loading to 1.16 or even 1.165 (since COAL did vary) as I stated above slightly I got some rounds that were 1.155 to 1.165 with the average being 1.16 as intended. In any case, these seem to fire fine and accurately out of my Glock 17, so what's the problem?

Also, all else being equal, don't you want to seat the bullet as far out as possible? Seating it to 1.16 makes for more accurate bullets so long as they cycle. Am I correct in that?
 
adn258 said:
Thanks for all of this help guys. So even the longer 1.165 inch rounds are fitting into my Glock magazine and seem to be doing fine. 9mm&223only made some really good points. It sounds like 4.9grs is almost too low for this lol.

That said, what's wrong with loading to 1.16 or even 1.165 (since COAL did vary) as I stated above slightly I got some rounds that were 1.155 to 1.165 with the average being 1.16 as intended. In any case, these seem to fire fine and accurately out of my Glock 17, so what's the problem?

Also, all else being equal, don't you want to seat the bullet as far out as possible? Seating it to 1.16 makes for more accurate bullets so long as they cycle. Am I correct in that?
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As long as the gun cycles and feeds reliable, your load is not too low. Yes, you could probably go higher with no issues if you want to. Keep in mind berrys reccomeds not exceededing 1250fps with their l regular plated bullets.

Like uncle nick said, as long as your col is under 1.169 you should be ok.

Oh boy, your last point is a deep rabbit hole. Ok I will try to not get too far lost on this one. In short, no. Seating the bullet as far out as possible does not make it more accurate. And seating depth is generally related to rifles, not pistols. With rifles you can take a 1.5in group at 100ydsand bring it down to 0.75 in by tuning the seating depth, or at least I have been able to. With handguns I cannot say as I have ever measured a group. or that I would have the ability to tell the difference between my shooting ability and the group size changes with a handgun.

A simple test of this idea would be, more accurate than what? How are you quantifying accuracy? And if this was the case, why are all factory rounds not loaded to 1.169? Measure some, they will vary a lot.

If you want to understand seating depth look up Eric cortinas video titled on YouTube titled " chasing the lands is stupid! Don't do it."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRXlCG9YZbQ

Hand loading let's you adjust your load to your gun and your needs. Read your reloading manual. Work your loads up from the starting load. Don't go above the maximum load. As long as it cycles the gun reliably, you have lots of room to taylor to your needs or wants.
 
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SOMETIMES seating a bullet closer to the lands results in better accuracy. But its not a given.

I get a kick out of such blanket statements like "you have to seat .0X" off the lands to be accurate..."

As if it applied to all guns and ammo. It doesn't. In many cases, it can't. Many designs won't allow a cartridge with a bullet seated that far out to feed through the action.

This is the primary purpose, of max COAL limits, to allow a round of that length, or less to feed through a repeater's mechanism and not be jammed into the rifling when chambered with a usual and ordinary bullet profile.

Everything the ammo makers make is going to be at least slightly less than that to work in guns with slightly different tolerances. Remember its mass market production where it has to work acceptably well in everything out there.

Another point is what is acceptable accuracy?? And is the gun you're shooting capable of that? And, are you?

If you're shooting an out of the box service grade tilt barrel semi auto, you shouldn't expect the kind of accuracy bolt action match rifle shooters are getting and their reloading tips and tricks for best accuracy are seldom applicable.

Same goes for a lot of other things in various different ways and degrees.
 
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