cartridge advice double standards.

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ZeroJunk said:
The latest coolness is using less powerful cartridges and talking about how such and such a small cartridge is perfectly adequate for whatever and the unenlightened masses are using too much.

In the meantime there is not much downside to using the biggest thing you can stand to shoot and hit what you are aiming at. You just won't be cool on internet forums.
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I don't think it is the latest coolness or fad. We live in the information age that allows us to analyze everything, including the cartridges we shoot. The results of shooting competitions and the cartridges used to win are also guiding this thinking. Bryan Litz and German Salazar have written on why .30 caliber and greater have fallen out of favor in competition shooting. We live in an age where everyone is chasing the sub-MOA group. This mindset makes it tough to justify a .30 caliber or larger gun or a magnum. It is easier to achieve this with a high BC bullet in a low recoil cartridges, which happen to be these "small cartridges".

I wish I could handle high recoil or even .308 recoil, if I could I would run out and buy a CZ in 9.3x62 just because, but I am super happy with my 6.5 Creedmoor because of the ballistics I get with those high BC bullets and the minimum recoil afforded to me by this cartridge.
 
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haha, and yet another thread degrades to 6.5 bashing. scandinavians have used 6.5 swede to hunt elk, roe deer, red deer, fallow deer, bear, and a plethora of other big game species since the early 1900s... but apparently it's the latest and greatest thing to use that's smaller than the common wisdom suggests is necessary to hunt such species. the fact of the matter is that 6.5 to 7mm have the highest ballistic coefficients making them the best suited to long range hunters. I have a hard time believing that a 140gr 6.5 travelling 2800 FPS is inferior for hunting to a 308 147gr travelling 2700fps... your remark is complete bias and offers no value to this conversation except to attempt to get people riled up.
 
So, you are not bashing traditionally accepted cartridges and those who use them and I am bashing the 6.5 ?

The 6.5 is fine. So are most of the rest of them. But, the 6.5 is just the current darling.

BTW, BC doesn't mean anything to 99% of the hunters out there at any range they have any business shooting at anything, including myself.
 
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tahunua001, I can only speak for myself but I don't have double standard on what I use or what I would rec to someone else. Living here in Co we have options reg season cow/bull tag,doe/buck tag deer,doe/buck tag antelope.

What I may use on a cow elk may differ from what I would use on deer tag to antelope tag.

I took my last cow elk tag with 30-06, buck deer tag with 270 and I've never taken elk bull/cow with a 270 and my last bull tag used 30 cal mag. I've never drawn a doe deer/antelope tag and I've never filled big game tag here with 243.


I think the double standard is the poster never taken animal with what he recommends. Just because I've never taken big game animal here with 243 doesn't mean I don't like my Kreiger barrel 243 or Hart barrel 243AI.

I do agree lot of difference in hunting bullets from when I started mid 60's and been good changes for those will to build for them.
 
I hunt deer with my handguns. I use a variety of platforms and calibers. When I talk about using my .357s I get blasted for using a caliber that's barely adequate and using it is inhumane. When I talk about using the .460 I get bashed because it's too much gun for a lowly deer and the only reason I need that much power, is because I must be compensating for being such a lousy shot. This from folks that don't know my skills, where I hunt or how I hunt. Most don't shoot a quarter as much handgun as I do. That's why I don't need to come here to get validation for what I use. I get my validation at the range and in the field.
 
ZeroJunk said:
The latest coolness is using less powerful cartridges and talking about how such and such a small cartridge is perfectly adequate for whatever and the unenlightened masses are using too much.

In the meantime there is not much downside to using the biggest thing you can stand to shoot and hit what you are aiming at. You just won't be cool on internet forums.
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Zero... buddy... come on... I think you're misrepresenting the argument.

In all my time on this forum, I've I don't recall anyone claiming that you SHOULDN'T use a larger or more powerful cartridge if you can handle it.

The argument has always been that most people can't handle it even when they think they can.

Of course, everyone thinks they're not "that guy" who can't handle recoil but MOST guys ARE "that guy".

I don't care if someone hunts deer with a .338Lapua if they can handle the recoil and still shoot well but MOST people can't.

It doesn't have to be a .338 either. I've seen guys (virtually every time I've seen a misfire) who've been shooting 12ga deer slugs longer than I've been alive that jump like they got electrocuted when the gun says "Click!" instead of "BOOM!".

When I consider that fact along with the fact that a 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, .300Win Mag, etc, won't make any difference whatsoever on how fast a deer is dead nor turn a bad shot into a good one over a .243Win, 7mm-08, .25-06, 257Roberts, etc. I ask why most guys would use the former over the latter. Don't have to be deer either.

I'd rather have a guy shooting at an animal with a .243win that he's burned 4 barrels out of than with a .300WinMag that he shoots 6 times a year because he hates the damn thing but thinks he "needs" it to kill something.

If you (generic "you") can shoot a gun/cartridge very well, have at it. If you can't, pick something smaller. A double lung shot with a .243 beats a blown in half leg with a .300Win Mag, every day and twice on Sunday.
 
I must live on a different planet. Of course, everybody around here grew up shooting. A friends boy who has probably killed fifty deer because they are soy bean farmers and have a permit took about three shots to decide he didn't like a 7 Mag. Another friend hunted with a 7 Mag for years and I don't remember him ever losing one .

The line for most is 7 Mag and 30/06. I really don't discern any difference. But, when you get in to 300 Mags it takes more concentration and you have to pay more attention to your position. I know guys that use them and some simply will not.

But, this guy that keeps framming away with a 338 Lapua is more an internet caricature than any real person.
 
I get told all the time that my 357 magnum carbine is inadequate for the mule deer we have here. I think it has much more to do with shot placement than the power of the gun. Though I do try to load my hunting rounds hot (for a 357 magnum)

Id say a lot depends on how you shoot it. Where I shoot, many of my deer is from taken my back porch at ranges from 30-100 yards. I have a rest set up and I know with the rest I can hit with I aim at.

When hunting in the field (away from my house) I use a 45-70. Long shots are not really possible in Heavily forested areas.

I probably shoot my 357 magnum carbine as much as I shoot all the rest of my guns combined. No other gun feels as right in my hands as that gun. I have killed every thing from tree rats to mule deer with that rifle.
 
ZeroJunk said:
But, this guy that keeps framming away with a 338 Lapua is more an internet caricature than any real person.
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The .338 is, quite obviously, an exaggeration to highlight a point. It doesn't have to be a .338.

I don't know what planet you're on, or maybe which one I'm on, but the number of people who THINK they can handle recoil is a lot higher than the number who actually CAN.

This guy hunts with that or that guy uses this doesn't really tell you anything. NY State (Southern Tier) was shotgun only for decades. Everybody used one. Naturally, the argument was that a 20ga isn't enough for deer and you need a 12ga.:rolleyes: In all the years I hunted with a shotgun and all the guys I watched shoot, I don't recall a SINGLE incident where the gun misfired and the shooter didN'T flinch. No exaggeration. Every. Single. Time. Every. Single. Shooter.

At the same time, I've asked a whole bunch of guys if they flinch when they shoot a 12ga deer slug. Nope. Nobody does. Of course not. I watched 100% of them (who had misfires in my presence) flinch and I had 0% tell me they do flinch. Amazing.

So, what if the real number is 50%, 25%? That's still 1 in every 4 shooters who can't handle big recoil and who tell you they can.

Of course, since NOBODY is ever "that guy", I don't ever tell anybody that they are and I don't ever expect anyone to admit it openly. I concede that anyone who says they don't, doesn't.

What I hope for, though, is that all these guys who "of course I don't" flinch, will think about it when they get the chance and maybe find an excuse they can use when their hunting buddies pick on them for "downgrading" from a .300Win Mag to a .30-06, or from a .30-06 to a 7mm-08 or from a 7mm-08 to a .243. Whatever it takes to make them better shooters.
 
Well, if I shoot my Benelli with 3 1/2 buck shot and it doesn't fire I guarantee I will flinch. I also guarantee that if it doesn't misfire I am going to bust that deer's butt with it. I suspect I have flinched ever time I have shot a shotgun in my life except for perhaps a turkey shoot match.
 
Peetza

I think the flinch rate may be much higher than you think. More like 70 to 80 percent. Add to that the trigger jerkers and the numbers may astound you. Jerking and flinching are the two hardest things for most shooters to overcome. Big bores just add to a problem that sometimes is never cured.
 
BTW, BC doesn't mean anything to 99% of the hunters out there at any range they have any business shooting at anything, including myself.
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I'm not going to completely disagree with you but I think you are greatly overestimating the number of hunters that don't hunt long ranges. hunters in MT, WY, ID and eastern WA and OR and western north and sound dakota. are generally required to resort to long range shots when dealing with mule deer, Pronghorn, Big Horns, and Elk with the possibility of taking long shots at White Tail, Bison.

for the sake of argument we will limit them to 400 yard shots with a 30 caliber rifle. comparing a 180gr sierra pro hunter round nosed bullet and a 180gr Nosler Accubond.

with a 200 yard zero at 2800 fps, by 400 yards the accubond has dropped 21 inches, still has 1800 FTLBs of energy and is still traveling 2100 FPS.

with the same zero and muzzle velocity the pro hunter has dropped 31 inches, only has 900FTLBs of energy left and is going a very slow 1500 FPS.

for MOST hunters in western states long shots are normal BC is very important to factor in when handloading hunting ammo. I am quite certain that 99% of hunters do not reside in swamps and forests where long shots are considered anything over 50 yards.
 
This is all very interesting. I have at least 5 rifles, probably more tht will shoot sub-MOA or less, FROM THE BENCH! On my last elk hunt I took four rifles as I was not sure which I wanted to hunt with. They were a .270 Win., .280 Rem., .300 Win. Mag. and a .35 Whelen. The day before the hunt, I, along with my two partners went to the NRA's Whittington center to check out if rifles were properly sighted in. They were and all four shot sub-MOA groups. I shoot very good groups from the bench but admit I don't do all that well from field positions although I usually get one shot kills with some requiring a finisher. One of my partners that sighting in day shot my .280 and got a .50" group. He's been trying to buy that rifle ever since.
One of my really gut griping pet peeves is when someone asks for help on loading a cartidge and it seems like every one and their shirt tail cousins tries to get them to use something else. I'll use my pet elk round, the .35 Whelen as an example. Sure as God made little green apples the yahoos will tout the 338-06 as being better or the 9.3x62 as the better round. Why not just help the guy asking about the Whelen by answering his question(s). Guess that's just way too simple. :mad:
As far as shooting the latest and greatest, I'm currently thinking about going to the 7x57 for next year's elk hunt. I don't flinch and that's been proven more than once but my right shoulder has some arthritis and shooting the bigger stuff has gotten a bit uncomfortable. Not so much when I'm actually shooting but I do feel it the next day.
Paul B.
 
comparing a 180gr sierra pro hunter round nosed bullet and a 180gr Nosler Accubond.
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Compare the same hunting bullet in .264, .284. and 308. Don't throw a round nose at a lower velocity in there to make your point. And compare a 30-06 or one of the 300 Mags against the Creedmore at 300 yards which is most peoples limit whether they chose to admit it or not.
 
again you are overlooking factual data and misrepresenting what constitutes the majority of hunters. why would I compare the same bullet type in different weights, ballistic coefficients and velocities in an attempt to prove that BC does matter? that is like claiming that SUVs get worse gas milage than cars so I compare the milage between an explorer, a durango and an extera... this offers no basis for either side of that argument. I did not compare a slower round nose, I compared a round nose traveling the same speed. the data I got came from the hornady ballistics calculator, the only difference was the ballistic coefficient of the two bullets. that goes of to show the need for good BC in hunting rounds over range. I will say again. unless you have hunted in more than one state, in more than one topographical region you really have no business saying what MOST hunters will and will not do. as I have said a person that lives in the badlands is going to be sorely disappointed if they refuse to shoot anything over 200 yards, just as a person hunting in Hell's Canyon is going to be very disappointed if they draw a once in a lifetime bighorn sheep tag but refuse to shoot at an animal more than 300 yards away.

MOST hunters do not live in north carolina. just like MOST hunters do not live in Idaho. however I have seen enough of the western US, and spoken with enough sportsmen in those locations to know that long shots are a necessary skill if you want to eat meat and if you need to take a long shot you need a bullet that isn't going to drop like a rock.
 
I have spent at least 250 days hunting in Montana and Canada and I guess just miraculously I have not found the necessity to try and make a "long" shot. I just walk away if I can't get close enough, no big deal. Another one will come along.

If you compare the BC of a typical hunting cartridge that people normally use elk hunting in 264, 284, or 308 at the velocities people normally use the BC doesn't amount to more than a couple of inches at ranges most hunters can hit a Volkswagon.

If you think you need a 6.5 that is fine with me, but if you kill something with it that you could not have killed with a 30-06 I would like to hear about it. Otherwise it is the same old gun rag best cartridge ever du jour.
 
ZeroJunk, I have hunted Red Deer in the Cevennes Mountians of France and I can honestly say that I could not have killed my stag with either a .30-06 or .308. That is where my 6.5 Creedmoor came in really handy.

I just kid, I have never hunted outside of Wisconsin. I thought I would throw a little needed humor into this debate. I owned a Howa 1500 in a .30-06, it was my first rifle, but I had to sell it because I couldn't handle the recoil. I loved that gun.

Paul B. said:
As far as shooting the latest and greatest, I'm currently thinking about going to the 7x57 for next year's elk hunt.
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The 7x57 is truly a lovely cartridge!
 
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very well. zero Junk.

308, 180gr soft point, traveling 2700 FPS, ballistic coefficient of .385 with 200 yard zero. this is the factory federal powershok load. at 400 yards velocity is 1850FPS, 1350 FTLB, and a little over 26 inches of bullet drop.

compare to the 180gr accubond from earlier at the same 2700fps muzzle and same zero. at 400 yards the AB is going 2050FPS, 1650FTLB, and has less than 24 inches of drop, flight path wise the high BC may not have a great deal of improvement in bullet drop over a decent soft point but the velocity and energy differences are still very substantial.

now lets move down to .284 as requested. using standard federal powershok loads for a 280 remington. 150gr bullet traveling at 2900 FPS, BC .415. at 400 yards, 2050FPS, 1425FTLB, bullet drop 21.5 inches.

Nosler E tip, same weight, velocity, ETC, BS 510. at 400 yards, over 2200FPS, 1625 FTLB, 20 inches bullet drop. again, significant differences in energy and velocity.

and finally with 6.5. 6.5x55mm federal power shoks, 140gr, BC .438, 2650FPS, same zero as others. at 400 yards, 1900FPS, 1125FTLBs, bullet drop 26 inches.

and with a 140gr berger VLD, BC .522. at 400 yards, 2000FPS, 1200FPS, bullet drop 24.5.

all of this is based on factory hunting ammunition and common hunting calibers. is every case the superior BC offers significantly superior velocity and energy as well as reduced bullet drop. you can try to rationalize that away all you want but for long range hunting application(whether you personally believe in it or not) BC is a major factor in bullet selection.

now about time someone steered this thread back on path... if it ever had one to begin with.
 
There are so many reasons why it happens, that it should be a post of its own. To sum it up, here follow the most common reasons.


1. caliber issues, 'grandpa jones told me you NEED a 243 on pocket gopher with 100 grain bullets. SO dont try to use your .308 or .223"

If someone is paying 1.25 per shot of rifle ammunition, then YOU should be paying the same basic cost of rifle ammunition. So that 20 dollar box of remington 30-30 is USELESS for deer. you boviously need that 49 dollar box of loaded vortex ammo.

2. 'helping the poster out' its the one that seems to start the most wars. Normally it follows a line of thought that is logical but not always of a service to the user. Here is an example that has happened.

'yes your 30-30 with normal bullets is more then fine at 150 yards. however i dont think the original poster is able to hit at that range with that rifle, or is able to judge range at all. so please go get a 30-06 or .308 and load it with the same 150 jsp, and your more then good if you think 200 yards is your 150 yard max range."

3. "yes i did it myself but the situation was really a set up that could not fail'

ie, yes i used a 44 russian to kill a black bear, but it iwas in a bear trap and i did get a bullet in the ear canal, but it took 30 tries because i was peeing my pants So dont use a 357, use at least a 44 mag.
 
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