Carrying with empty chamber? Foolish.
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Eric Larsen
New member
Carrying without a round chambered is something that I wont do and doesnt make sense to me. WHY?
Shoot well
Shoot well
My understanding is that the Israelis are quite adept at drawing and racking in one smooth quick motion, and with training, this doesn't not delay the first shot more than about 1/4 to 1/2 of a second. But I agree that every little bit helps, and thus carry chamber-loaded, Glock or otherwise. However, that's with a good holster that covers the trigger guard. Mexican style is another matter. I wouldn't carry Mexican style, but if I had to, in a pinch for some reason, I would definitely carry empty chamber on a GLOCK - chamber-loaded other pistols (mexican carry of glock chambered=foolish).
99 times out of 100, the 1/2 second won't cost you your life. However, I wouldn't want to risk that 1%. Problem is, that this presumes regular training. Chambering a round for folks who don't train might take you upwards of 2-3 seconds, and that's definitely bad mojo in a gunfight. I would also venture to guess that the same people who are scared of carrying chambered loaded are by and large the same peeps who don't train, thus compounding the problem - so in essence I agree.
99 times out of 100, the 1/2 second won't cost you your life. However, I wouldn't want to risk that 1%. Problem is, that this presumes regular training. Chambering a round for folks who don't train might take you upwards of 2-3 seconds, and that's definitely bad mojo in a gunfight. I would also venture to guess that the same people who are scared of carrying chambered loaded are by and large the same peeps who don't train, thus compounding the problem - so in essence I agree.
As I understand your argument, you think someone should practice enough to be able to shoot weak hand, but not enough to be able to rack the slide out of the holster?
Do you carry incapacitating spray? A cell phone? I think anyone who carries a cocealed weapon without these items is dumb and guaranteed to get sued if they ever use it.
But as a typical macho postering hypothetical gun-board thread, hey, knock yourself out!
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But, hey, you're in Boston!
Seriously, do you think there's a choice between using pepper spray or Raid Hornet Spray versus shooting a BG? If you draw your CCW, the confrontation may end instantly without firing or loading an empty chamber.
If you choose spray, you may be greeted with a laugh and "I'm upwind sucker!" The main problem with spray is that you've committed to that choice.
Or are you saying that you should first draw your CCW to use to hold the BG(s) at bay while you get your spray to irritate and incapacitate them once you get close enough or while you call the cops?
I agree that you should always have a cell phone, but service isn't available everywhere, and I often find myself in places where I don't have a clue as to how to direct help to the location.
Lastly, I expect to get sued if I use a CCW no matter what else I have available. I don't plan to lose, but I do plan to get sued....
Futo Inu,
Now the CCW citizen does have the opportunity to exploit surprise as a tactical advantage, provided that the gun is in condition 1. The first sound I want the BG to hear about my CCW is "bang". I don't want him hearing clicking, clunking, and cussing for 1/2 second or even less.
By employing surprise, I also have the advantage of changing my mind should I see the situation was misperceived. It's just as easy to silently slip an unseen gun back into its hiding place as it is to get it out, and I want every opportunity NOT to shoot. Chambering a round unavoidably escalates the situation, and that might not be desirable.
They don't have to worry about the element of surprise either. Nobody should be surpirsed if a soldier in full battle dress shoots them, so the soldiers never can expect to "surprise" anybody.
Now the CCW citizen does have the opportunity to exploit surprise as a tactical advantage, provided that the gun is in condition 1. The first sound I want the BG to hear about my CCW is "bang". I don't want him hearing clicking, clunking, and cussing for 1/2 second or even less.
By employing surprise, I also have the advantage of changing my mind should I see the situation was misperceived. It's just as easy to silently slip an unseen gun back into its hiding place as it is to get it out, and I want every opportunity NOT to shoot. Chambering a round unavoidably escalates the situation, and that might not be desirable.
VVG -
Yes, I think you should practice weak-hand shooting. If you carry with an empty chamber, I sure think you should practice chambering a round after drawing. Be a fool not to. I just don't agree with carrying chamber-empty, or claiming that it's "just as fast" as chamber-loaded. Sure, the Israelis may do it. They are a well-trained bunch of professional shooters. My argument is, if you are not comfortable carrying a Glock with a loaded chamber, maybe move to something you feel comfortable with.
Macho posturing? Don't know how you came to that conclusion. I gave an opinion and asked for yours.
Yes, I think you should practice weak-hand shooting. If you carry with an empty chamber, I sure think you should practice chambering a round after drawing. Be a fool not to. I just don't agree with carrying chamber-empty, or claiming that it's "just as fast" as chamber-loaded. Sure, the Israelis may do it. They are a well-trained bunch of professional shooters. My argument is, if you are not comfortable carrying a Glock with a loaded chamber, maybe move to something you feel comfortable with.
Macho posturing? Don't know how you came to that conclusion. I gave an opinion and asked for yours.
One Handed Racks
<<When I pointed out that he may have use the pistol while injured, one-handed, he called such a situation a "hollywood screen set situation", implying, I guess, that stuff like that doesn't happen in real life. Uh-huh. Probably doesn't practice weak-handed, either.>>
An incredibly small percentage (1% i believe) of police officers actually discharge their weapons in the line of duty througout their whole career. I would think the chances of the general public doing so would be even less.
It would therefore stand to reason that most people should practice the percentage shots. Especially when "most people" don't practice that much anyway.
I agree that it makes the most sense to have your weapon chambered, however many feel that the risk of AD or ND is greater than encountering a villian & having to quick draw. To each their own.
I think the same applies to one handed racks & weak handed shooting. It's great to know how to do it but the likelyhood of being winged in a gunfight and having to do so is pretty darn remote although i have seen it happen in a lot of movies.
I think most would be better served to keep it simple and work on a minimum things until they become a reflex before worrying about what if scenarios. I see very few people actually practicing the basic drawing and shooting & most shoot at distances well beyond a real self-defense situation.
It reminds me of martial artists who talk about self-defense and but spend years practicing their jumping and turning kicks thinking that they are good self-defense techniques. Again, nothing wrong with it but probably not the smartest steet moves to be doing in real life.
I hope none of us ever have to find out first hand what is real and what is not.
<<When I pointed out that he may have use the pistol while injured, one-handed, he called such a situation a "hollywood screen set situation", implying, I guess, that stuff like that doesn't happen in real life. Uh-huh. Probably doesn't practice weak-handed, either.>>
An incredibly small percentage (1% i believe) of police officers actually discharge their weapons in the line of duty througout their whole career. I would think the chances of the general public doing so would be even less.
It would therefore stand to reason that most people should practice the percentage shots. Especially when "most people" don't practice that much anyway.
I agree that it makes the most sense to have your weapon chambered, however many feel that the risk of AD or ND is greater than encountering a villian & having to quick draw. To each their own.
I think the same applies to one handed racks & weak handed shooting. It's great to know how to do it but the likelyhood of being winged in a gunfight and having to do so is pretty darn remote although i have seen it happen in a lot of movies.
I think most would be better served to keep it simple and work on a minimum things until they become a reflex before worrying about what if scenarios. I see very few people actually practicing the basic drawing and shooting & most shoot at distances well beyond a real self-defense situation.
It reminds me of martial artists who talk about self-defense and but spend years practicing their jumping and turning kicks thinking that they are good self-defense techniques. Again, nothing wrong with it but probably not the smartest steet moves to be doing in real life.
I hope none of us ever have to find out first hand what is real and what is not.
Blombo,
Good points.
The odds of a BG holding up a store getting the drop on a uniformed LEO are what, REAL close to zero...? That's because a BG is very likely to be dissuaded from robbing that particular store at that particular time. The uniform is a good deterrent.
However, if it's just Joe Citizen in the store along with the help, the BG has probably planned for that. A supermarket close by was robbed just like that. The BG herded everybody into the freezer and shot the manager to emphasize his order for them to stay put.
The point it, that if a citizen does draw the unlikely card in the "percentage game," he's far more likely to need his CCW while under gunpoint or observation. Likewise with ATM visits, muggings, etc. Those encounters happening to police, for all practical purposes, just don't happen, but it's the norm for poor old Joe Citizen.
In that case as Joe Citizen, I want stealth, silence, and Condition 1....
Good points.
The odds of a BG holding up a store getting the drop on a uniformed LEO are what, REAL close to zero...? That's because a BG is very likely to be dissuaded from robbing that particular store at that particular time. The uniform is a good deterrent.
However, if it's just Joe Citizen in the store along with the help, the BG has probably planned for that. A supermarket close by was robbed just like that. The BG herded everybody into the freezer and shot the manager to emphasize his order for them to stay put.
The point it, that if a citizen does draw the unlikely card in the "percentage game," he's far more likely to need his CCW while under gunpoint or observation. Likewise with ATM visits, muggings, etc. Those encounters happening to police, for all practical purposes, just don't happen, but it's the norm for poor old Joe Citizen.
In that case as Joe Citizen, I want stealth, silence, and Condition 1....
Rickmeister
New member
Do I carry with a round in the chamber? Why, yes!
Let's put it this way. If I find myself in a situation where I need to draw quickly and fire in self defense, I know that at least I'll get one round off. Not the case if I rack with an empty chamber and my gun fails to feed.
Dead meat.
Let's put it this way. If I find myself in a situation where I need to draw quickly and fire in self defense, I know that at least I'll get one round off. Not the case if I rack with an empty chamber and my gun fails to feed.
Dead meat.
To be effective at drawing and racking, you are going under the assumption that you will have access to both hands. Sometimes we don't even have access to both hands while we are actually shooting!
What happens when somebody attacks you out of nowhere with a knife? (I know we are all in condition yellow all the time, but hey stuff happens).
What happens if you get blind sided? Sucker punched?
What happens to the woman when the rapist steps out of the shadows and grabs her? Will she have access to both hands?
What happens if you are holding an infant in your arms?
What happens when you are on unstable footing, and you are using your other hand to hold on to a support?
How does this work when you are driving?
Sure carrying chamber empty is better than nothing. But I don't see the logic behind it. If you are trained to the point that you can draw, rack and shoot in less than a second and a half, then you are trained to the point that you can carry safely, draw and shoot in well under a second.
The only logic I see behind chamber empty is when you first start to CCW, and you are still very nervous about it. Carry chamber empty for a couple of weeks until you feel better about it.
What happens when somebody attacks you out of nowhere with a knife? (I know we are all in condition yellow all the time, but hey stuff happens).
What happens if you get blind sided? Sucker punched?
What happens to the woman when the rapist steps out of the shadows and grabs her? Will she have access to both hands?
What happens if you are holding an infant in your arms?
What happens when you are on unstable footing, and you are using your other hand to hold on to a support?
How does this work when you are driving?
Sure carrying chamber empty is better than nothing. But I don't see the logic behind it. If you are trained to the point that you can draw, rack and shoot in less than a second and a half, then you are trained to the point that you can carry safely, draw and shoot in well under a second.
The only logic I see behind chamber empty is when you first start to CCW, and you are still very nervous about it. Carry chamber empty for a couple of weeks until you feel better about it.
Suicide!
One of the more common needs for a gun QUICK is during carjackings or during an assault by a road rage idiot. As I recall, the first use of a gun by an armed citizen in Texas, under their new CCW laws, was just such a case. Road Rage moron grabbed the driver's left arm and attempted to drag him out of the vehicle window even as he punched the victim repeatedly in the head and face. The victim was able to draw his concealed gun and shoot the SOB. COULD HE HAVE DONE IT IF HE HAD HAD AN EMPTY CHAMBER?
The Military demands empty chamber because it must make rules to suit the dumbest grunt in the corps! Besides, in combat, you KNOW that you're going into harm's way. A citizen, minding his own business NEVER knows when he's going to come under attack.
If you want to carry Cond 3, fine with me, but it looks like attempting suicide!
On the other hand, if you're so affraid of your weapon that you must carry it "empty," maybe you have NO BUSINESS carrying a gun in the first place.
One of the more common needs for a gun QUICK is during carjackings or during an assault by a road rage idiot. As I recall, the first use of a gun by an armed citizen in Texas, under their new CCW laws, was just such a case. Road Rage moron grabbed the driver's left arm and attempted to drag him out of the vehicle window even as he punched the victim repeatedly in the head and face. The victim was able to draw his concealed gun and shoot the SOB. COULD HE HAVE DONE IT IF HE HAD HAD AN EMPTY CHAMBER?
The Military demands empty chamber because it must make rules to suit the dumbest grunt in the corps! Besides, in combat, you KNOW that you're going into harm's way. A citizen, minding his own business NEVER knows when he's going to come under attack.
If you want to carry Cond 3, fine with me, but it looks like attempting suicide!
On the other hand, if you're so affraid of your weapon that you must carry it "empty," maybe you have NO BUSINESS carrying a gun in the first place.
While I always carry a double-action pistol with a round chambered, I generally carry my Browning condition three. Most of the pros and cons have been mentioned, but I would like to add that no less an authority than Fairbairn, whom I consider the father of modern pisolcraft, recommends using condition three only. True, his officers carried their Colts in a flapped weak side holster - facilitating the use of the weak hand in assisting the racking motion after undoing the flap (and advancing into a one handed point stance).
OTOH, lets not forget that he was dealing with oriental martial artists and the armed organized criminals of the 20's and 30's.
the duck of death
New member
I've carried for 46 years. I don't consider myself a novice. The only guns I'll carry in cond 1 start DA. I'm presently carring a Glock 23 because its small and light. I carry it in cond 3, and before you started going on this, I don't consider the Glock double action. If your comfortable carring in cond 1 by all means do so but don't think someone is a fool because they don't. Perhaps they have thought it out and perfer to carry in cond 3. You must remember what opinions are like, oops, that's right I can change my opinion.
I did some timed tests at the range yesterday with my DAO P-11. The timer was a competition electronic timer that emits a beep when it starts and stops when it "hears" the report when the gun fires and is accurate to 0.01 seconds.
Draw and aimed first shot using 2 handed grip from Condition 1 was 1.00 seconds.
Draw, rack, and aimed first shot using 2 handed grip from Condition 2 was 1.20 seconds.
"Cost" of Condition 2:
At 3:00 AM, the risk of forgetting the needed steps to fire and the gun's condition could be pretty high and so could an "ineffective" racking because of just plain fuzzy mindedness upon awakening to a problem.
I agree that Condition 2 is safer both for carrying and nightstand availability. Problem is that it's safer for a BG, and not for me...!
Draw and aimed first shot using 2 handed grip from Condition 1 was 1.00 seconds.
Draw, rack, and aimed first shot using 2 handed grip from Condition 2 was 1.20 seconds.
"Cost" of Condition 2:
- 0.20 seconds knowing in advance the needed steps.
- 1 less round capacity
- risk of not going into battery on racking so there would be no "first shot"
- risk of forgetting the gun's in Condition 2
At 3:00 AM, the risk of forgetting the needed steps to fire and the gun's condition could be pretty high and so could an "ineffective" racking because of just plain fuzzy mindedness upon awakening to a problem.
I agree that Condition 2 is safer both for carrying and nightstand availability. Problem is that it's safer for a BG, and not for me...!
Correia,
Actually, having only one working hand is not that unlikely a situation in the middle of the night! For about 30 years, I used to manage to cut off the circulation to one or the other of my arms by sleeping on it. It would complain and wake me up, and it wouldn't work for a while! I had to retrain myself to not sleep that way, but every once in a while....
Funny you should mention that! My buddy said the same thing. I said I could rack it one handed but it was really slow and awkward. He said "let me show you how" after which he smartly slammed the slide of the empty pistol against the outside of his right thigh, shoved it toward the ground -- and failed to rack the slide, in fact it only opened about 1/2". He tried it again and again. Failed each time. Then he got a bright idea and hooked the rear sight on his belt and only managed to partially rack it. The slide's return wasn't fast enough to go into battery. I said "Fine, but I don't sleep with a belt and jeans on." We both paid homage to the wisdom of Condition 1....
Actually, having only one working hand is not that unlikely a situation in the middle of the night! For about 30 years, I used to manage to cut off the circulation to one or the other of my arms by sleeping on it. It would complain and wake me up, and it wouldn't work for a while! I had to retrain myself to not sleep that way, but every once in a while....