Carrying with empty chamber? Foolish.

S

Spackler

New member
On another forum, in a thread about the possibility of putting a thumb safety on a Glock, a forum member advocated carrying the pistol with an empty chamber until needed, at which time he could draw and chamber a round.

I think this is foolish in the extreme. My position is, if you don't feel comfortable carrying a Glock (or whatever) with a chambered round, then switch to something you are comfortable carrying in that condition. If there isn't a pistol that you'd be comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, then maybe you should re-think whether you should be carrying at all. When I pointed out that he may have use the pistol while injured, one-handed, he called such a situation a "hollywood screen set situation", implying, I guess, that stuff like that doesn't happen in real life. Uh-huh. Probably doesn't practice weak-handed, either.

I'm curious about what others think, and if anybody here actually carries with an empty chamber. I think it's dumb. What do you think?
 
If you're ever forced to carry an SA-only semiauto that you do NOT fundamentally trust, chamber empty makes sense - I'm talking about Bryco/Jennings/Lorcin/Davis grades of crapola.

Until you upgrade at the first possible opportunity, of course.

The Israelis preached a "rack and go" drill for use with CZ-75 pattern guns. They had a problem whereby they needed to teach LARGE numbers of civilians in a standard fashion, quickly. The "rack and go" drill ensured that all shots were fired SA - they were justifiably concerned about novices getting screwed up by the transition between DA first shot and SA subsequent. Yes, you can also carry a CZ-75 type cocked'n'locked but for the mass training the Israelis were dealing with, that was discarded in a hurry.

All "official use/issue" Israeli pistols are based on the CZ-75 operating drill, by official policy, including the Jericho and the new design we've recently seen pictures of. This is what influenced their thinking.

The Glocks eliminate all this stuff. Same trigger stroke for each shot, internal safeties are plenty good enough. I'm not a big fan of the Glock but I respect it's capabilities.
 
Dumb, might be a little strong a word. I have seen the Israeli`s, secret police use this method...."empty chamber" in certain situations. Normally in a case where the weapon might be taken from the user, but not always the case. These guys are state of the art in firearms and use most every senario known to man or condition of threat. The thinking is, "if" you should be over powered, it might just allow you enough time.....if the weapon is lost, to evade being shot and/or valuable time to draw a back-up. Since the person who got the weapon may simply pull the trigger and without it firing, sudden confusion starts, giving much needed time to avoid being shot. Like any style of drawing AND shooting defensively, it too must be practiced.

It is much like the old west single action pistol, "fan" cocking.
When drawing the pistol from cover, the strong hand goes for the pistol and the weak hand is used to pull the cover back, as the pistol comes out of cover/holster, the weak hand grasp the top of the slide and as the upward motion of the strong hand is used to bring the pistol on target, the weak hand racks the slide on the upswing of the pistol, this motion is over and the pistol is in full battery upon reaching the line of sight to the target.....center mass. They showed no loss of time using this method, as opposed to just drawing and firing. But practice makes perfect in this or any type of self defense. In case of the wounded wing, they use the back of the knee for racking the slide to bring the pistol into battery, all motions are done in exagerated style, meaning; they are not dainty.

While the doing this (fan style), in the finished motion, the weak hand is next to the face, this allows the weak hand to be used to fend off the attacker if needed for a close shot, without allowing the pistol to be lost before firing "up close" This probably sounds kind of vague in describing it, but to see it in action.......very impressive. The Israeli`s have no problem with being up close and personal......not for the weak at heart. Just some rambling. Best LTS
 
Let me clarify that I'm not talking about Isrealis, or some other group of professionals, but the average American carrying a legally concealed handgun. I have little doubt that the well-trained professional shooter could carry chamber-empty if desired, but for 99.9% of the general public, I think it's a very bad idea. The idea that the most people could draw, chamber a round, and fire accurately as fast as they could draw, click off a safety (or not, as the case may be) and fire accurately, is crazy.
 
You asked the question....

I would venture to say that 99% of those who carry are truly not effective in drawing anyway. If some take offense, then that may not apply to you. But after the course of fire, most simply carry. Practice goes by-by. LTS
 
Spackler -

BTW, I think this subject has been kicked around (again) pretty extensively here recently on TLF.

I understand where you may b coming from, but words like "dumb, foolish or crazy" can be inappropriate. Formal training regarding some of the "tradeoffs" (like speed v.s. safety) is my recommendation. Thereafter it becomes a matter of personal choice for "carry people".

It recently took me several months to get a lady student (fairly new to guns) to start carrying a round in the chamber of a semi-auto (that also had a manual safety!). I finally had to put it in terms that it was just as safe as carrying her revolver with all chambers loaded. Now, she is comfortable doing so. In the meantime, no, I was not comfortable with her doing what she does with the semi-auto in Condition 3. But, she knew the "tradeoffs" and it was her PERSONAL CHOICE. We both felt that her at least carrying the gun (mostly in car) that way would be better than not carrying at all.

I'm more comfortable with some folks who chose to carry in Condition 3 than, for example, an LEO in east Texas who, while in a major retail store, created a new crease in his buttocks partially because his gun was in Condition 1! In summation: (1) education, (2) personal choice, (3) practice!
 
However they carry, if they can present and fire with precision and some speed ..........

Beats the whey out of not carrying.

Sam
 
Carrying with an empty chamber?

The only reason I'd carry a semi-auto firearm with an empty chamber is if I planned on using it like I would a brick - or a rock. Drawing a handgun from whatever/where ever you carry it should be a regular part of practice - just as shooting the handgun you carry is.
 
Well hell, I think a lot of things are foolish. Riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Running your weed-wacker without eye protection. Shooting without hearing protection. Eating Texas hot-dogs without first taking a pepcid.....

But I digress. Maybe foolish is the wrong choice of words. How about "ill-advised"? In retrospect, I guess what I think is foolish is not the actual carrying without a chambered round, but thinking that drawing and chambering a round is "just as fast" as drawing with a round already in the chamber. Or that Glocks can't safely be carried with a chambered round. There are always exceptions, but for the vast majority of people, chambered round will always be faster then empty chamber. I could probably train myself to draw and chamber a round plenty fast, but why bother?

And yep, I will yeild to the point that a gun with an empty chamber is better then no gun at all.
 
Even though my memory of what realy happen is now vague at best, but it realy happen.
Around ten years ago, I remember watching the news on TV about a man at a White-Sox game in Comiskey Park that had a Jennings .25auto with a round chambered and in his pocket. He was fumbling around in his pocket (probably looking for money), he must of accidentally hit the trigger with his finger and shot his wife in the leg. I remember real well the expression on his face as the Chicago Police were escorting him out of the ball park and off too jail. :eek:

If I was going to carry any gun in a pocket without a holster that can cover the entire trigger guard, I would not chamber a round.
 
I would never carry a subcompact Glock in my pocket, with a round in the chamber. The Glock design just isn't safe enough for that particular carry method. But I have no problem carrying a loaded Glock in any decent holster, ankle, iwb, belt, shoulder, etc.

However you carry, you must train on a regular basis with that method in mind so you know what to do automatically, because in an emergency, you won't have time to deliberate about it.
 
' Am with ya 100% Pete.

Maybe a review of the following 4 levels of physical/mental skills will help place more in perspective.

1. Unconscious incompetence.

2. Conscious incompetence.

3. Conscious competence.

4. Unconscious competence.

Agreed, most "carry people" (and LEOS for that matter) fall into category 3, with category 4 being the exception rather than the rule. :( Those of us "die hards" that often hang out to chit chat in the gun forums are obviously more likely to be closer to catgory 4 with semi-autos. :cool:

Having said that, I'll add that two of the (many) reasons that seasoned (civilian) instructors in this country still commonly recommend wheelguns is that (A) there are so many, many people who fall into categories 2 and 3 and (B) the question in the title of this thread becomes a non-issue. :) OK, sorry guys, I guess I'll go hang out in the Revolver section ... ;)
 
Well

My first CCW handgun was the Hi-Point and I practiced most everyday drawing and racking to the fire point. I still now even carring my P89D draw and almost go too rack it throwing a round on the ground realizing that one was chambered.....just became insinct.
I say practice the way that makes you the most safest,effiecent, andwhats workable
Tony
 
Carrying a pistol with te chamber empty is like carrying an unloaded pistol. It's only one step up from carrying the magazine in a different pocket.

Carrying an unloaded pistol forces you to perform a two-handed, fine-motoric activity when your adrenaline is through the roof. It's just asking for trouble at the most inopportune moment.
 
I did the drill today some with my browning BDA, it's tricky to say the least, the fastest way I could do it is by throwing it in my thigh holster and on the draw you bring it up like you normally would but a couple inches closer to your body with your hand on top of the gun and pushing upward against your hand with the pistol, you then wrap your weak hand around the slide a bit and push the gun forward with your weak hand basically keeping the slide in place. once you feel that the slide is back all the way just move your weak hand to your normal grip. after doing it 20-30 times I'm almost to the point where I can do it automatically, takes a lot of practice but it's not too bad. I still plan on carrying with a round in the chamber though.
 
It comes down to how you've been trained. For those that haven't trained using this mode, they will be behind the curve if a situation came up that required an immediate response.

Practicing in front of the mirror is one thing but actually doing combat drills using condition three carry under stress is a whole 'nuther ballgame.

Hey if you've been trained properly, why not? I think though for the average CCW'er who may go to the range once a month if that, condition two for a DA/SA with safety OFF is the way to go.

Once the adrenalyn dump occurs, motor skills take a hike. The average person will be lucky if they can even draw the firearm and present it, if they can find their holster.

If the person is worried about an AD in condition two, they need to KEEP THEIR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER! Duh.

There are too many safety features built into modern pistols for an AD to occur. No, nothing is failure proof but the odds are extremely low with a modern, quality built firearm that has not been abused.

My .02 worth
 
You can guess how I prefer to carry ;)

I wouldn't call carrying condition 3 to be foolish. what I do say is that you have to fully consider the pros and cons. The pro is that it's awfully hard to have an ND if the chamber is empty. There are a couple disadvantages, however. First, it is a bit slower to get into action carrying condition 3 than either condition 2 or condition 1. The bigger concern for me is that while you can rack the slide relatively quickly, you can only do that if you have both hands free. And your support hand might be busy -- fending off the perp, pushing your spouse to cover, scooping up a child, opening a door, etc. There are ways to rack the slide one-handed, but they aren't fast.

Each person has to consider the pros and cons given their situation. Condition 3 doesn't work for me.

M1911
 
Whatever floats their boat, but that doesn't work for me.

DAO semis with chambered round. That works for me.

I can do the whole manual of arms with my strong hand, but it isn't easy or fast. Doubt if I could do it at all with just my weak hand.

However, I shoot pretty well with my weak hand, and I see no reason to become unarmed should my strong hand become unavailable.

If a BG gets my pistol, it's because I'm a goner anyway, so having a round chambered as it would always be anyway isn't a big deal one way or the other because if he's intent on whacking me, getting shot or beat to death has the same result.

Edit: I clarified the last sentence.
 
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Spackler,

You ask an interesting question. Truth is most if not all gun makers advise against carrying one in the chamber, even while they point out how safe the gun is with a chambered round. Some say this warning is a litigation defence strategy.

IMHO, for CC it is not practical to carry without one in the chamber because you never know what situation might face you. It is the same reason why I do not support ported guns as CC. For e.g. If you are driving your car and encounter a ambush where you come under gunfire will you be able to rack the slide when your focus is to steer the car out of danger and possibly return the fire. A well-trained and experienced professional could but that is not the norm.

For me, I advocate self-defense and gun retention training and ask that the CC holder attain/maintain some form of physical conditioning. I would not want to gamble on someone having my gun whilst I am scared stiff hoping that they do not know how to use it.
 
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