OldMarksman
Staff
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Carrying extra mags for CC pistol
- Thread starter JBBURCH
- Start date
The traffic accident argument is pretty funny. To mitigate the risk of an accident, people buy safer cars, take defensive driving, wear a seatbelt etc it is an accident by definition.
If you are thrust into a self defense situation, it is no accident it is an intentional act by SOMEBODY.
The only question then is your training and gear up to the task at hand. An extra mag or two is essential gear for running your gun. Its like going on a cross country trip and only putting 1/2 a tank of gas in when you stop.
If you are thrust into a self defense situation, it is no accident it is an intentional act by SOMEBODY.
The only question then is your training and gear up to the task at hand. An extra mag or two is essential gear for running your gun. Its like going on a cross country trip and only putting 1/2 a tank of gas in when you stop.
The traffic accident argument is pretty funny. To mitigate the risk of an accident, people buy safer cars, take defensive driving, wear a seatbelt etc it is an accident by definition.
If you are thrust into a self defense situation, it is no accident it is an intentional act by SOMEBODY.
The distinction between the accident and intentional act isn't relevant. There is a probability that each will occur. That's all that matters.
You would be marginally safer if you wore a helmet in a car. Systems fail. A tractor trailer loaded with steel beams could roll over your roof. But you don't. No one does. The extra margin of safety isn't worth the trouble.
That's how I feel aboout extra magazines.
We can't quantify either extra margin of safety. And if we could, the choice of what to do would still be up to each person.
You make your choice. I make mine.
If we meet after all this is over, maybe you'll laugh at me cause I got there early on account of not having an extra magazine. Or maybe I'll ask if if you enjoyed lugging the extra stuff around for 50 years.
This is a recurring topic here. Unquestionably, a higher capacity gun is better, extra reloads/mags are better, "major" calibers are better, and modern hollow points are better in most calibers. Unquestionably, a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot backed up by a handgun would be better still. Most of us don't routinely carry a shotgun as we go about life even where it is lawful for us to do so. Why? One reason is the inconvenience factor compared to the risk factor. That's something each of us has to decide based upon individual circumstances, experiences, and preferences. I typically don't carry a reload when driving to the office but may when I'm going someplace that is higher risk. That begs the question as what is a"higher risk area" but that is something we each have to decide based on individual circumstances and experiences.
OldMarksman
Staff
Obviously I have acted as if I "feel" the same way, but the questions is one of whether that is an informed conclusion.Posted by Woody55: That [the extra margin of safety isn't worth the trouble]'s how I feel about extra magazines.
One could ask one of our members such as Rob Pincus how many malfunctions he sees that can easily be remedied by a quick magazine change, and one can watch practiced shooters effecting such changes and judge whether it would help in a tense situation, and one can strap on an extra magazine and evaluate for oneself just how much "trouble" would be involved. That would provide the basis for an informed decision.
I haven't done any of that, but the experienced members and instructors here do lean heavily toward carrying an extra magazine.
I have to ask myself why I have not yet accepted their judgment and acted upon it.
Just to put the hypotheticals in perspective, if one can rectify a malfunction with sufficient speed, an extra magazine would provide effective risk mitigation. A helmet only provides protection against blows that do not move the head rapidly or injure the spinal cord, and that risk is already heavily mitigated by other systems.
Most defensive pistol training involves magazine changes. I took an all day course two years ago where the main drill was firing two shots at each of three targets very rapidly, changing magazines, and firing six more shots at the three targets. All five of the instructors could do that--score twelve hits and change magazines--in a fraction over four seconds.
I cannot.
Around here, the police carry shotguns in their car. Of course, they may consider their risk or need for one to be greater than other people.
But as you mention, some people do buy safer cars (that is, cars they believe to be safer), wear their seatbelts, though they still talk on their cellphones. I don't really think talking on a cellphone is necessarily so distracting, by the way, unless you somehow think another passenger in the car is never distracting. Driving with one hand could be a problem. However, I've never heard of anyone taking a defensive driving course except for my government-worker brother-in-law. It was given through his agency.
There's a limit to safer cars, though, because there seems to be no limit how big the other vehicles are--and apparently no limit on their speed.
So far, the best reason I've seen to carry an extra magazine is simply to balance the handgun, assuming they're carried on opposite sides.
But as you mention, some people do buy safer cars (that is, cars they believe to be safer), wear their seatbelts, though they still talk on their cellphones. I don't really think talking on a cellphone is necessarily so distracting, by the way, unless you somehow think another passenger in the car is never distracting. Driving with one hand could be a problem. However, I've never heard of anyone taking a defensive driving course except for my government-worker brother-in-law. It was given through his agency.
There's a limit to safer cars, though, because there seems to be no limit how big the other vehicles are--and apparently no limit on their speed.
So far, the best reason I've seen to carry an extra magazine is simply to balance the handgun, assuming they're carried on opposite sides.
My three reasons for spares have been brought up by others, separately.
Combined, they are:
1. More capacity is never bad, per se.
2. Ability to change magazines in the event of a stoppage is good.
3. Counter-weight to the pistol - I carry RH IWB, with double mag carrier on left side. The double carrier provides better balance (thus less hip discomfort or potential back pain) than does a single.
Combined, they are:
1. More capacity is never bad, per se.
2. Ability to change magazines in the event of a stoppage is good.
3. Counter-weight to the pistol - I carry RH IWB, with double mag carrier on left side. The double carrier provides better balance (thus less hip discomfort or potential back pain) than does a single.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
This is a recurring topic here. Unquestionably, a higher capacity gun is better, extra reloads/mags are better, "major" calibers are better, and modern hollow points are better in most calibers. Unquestionably, a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot backed up by a handgun would be better still. Most of us don't routinely carry a shotgun as we go about life even where it is lawful for us to do so. Why? One reason is the inconvenience factor compared to the risk factor. That's something each of us has to decide based upon individual circumstances, experiences, and preferences. I typically don't carry a reload when driving to the office but may when I'm going someplace that is higher risk. That begs the question as what is a"higher risk area" but that is something we each have to decide based on individual circumstances and experiences.
Exactly my thoughts and what I do. Depends where I'm going..16rds suffice most of the time. If I'm going out somewhere and not going to spend a majority of time in my car, I will take a spare mag.
No what is Woody trying to say? Maybe I've been skimming over his posts too fast or maybe he's just all over the place.
Explain?
@Constantine,
Stripped of the reasoning, arguments, analogies etc., it comes down to this:
I do not carry extra magazines. While an extra magazine would reduce the risk of being killed or injured, I believe the reduction is too small to be worth the inconvenience of carrying the extra magazine.
Stripped of the reasoning, arguments, analogies etc., it comes down to this:
I do not carry extra magazines. While an extra magazine would reduce the risk of being killed or injured, I believe the reduction is too small to be worth the inconvenience of carrying the extra magazine.
If we meet after all this is over, maybe you'll laugh at me cause I got there early on account of not having an extra magazine. Or maybe I'll ask if if you enjoyed lugging the extra stuff around for 50 years.
I am not racing, and I have been carrying for more than 30 years, yes its worth it. I do not trust statistics, the same data set can be manipulated to several conclusions. To reach an average you have a bell curve, there are many more shootings with one hit and 10 hits than 2 hits.
I do not carry extra magazines. While an extra magazine would reduce the risk of being killed or injured, I believe the reduction is too small to be worth the inconvenience of carrying the extra magazine.
Do you have training or experience that bears this out? All of my training is on multiple hits on multiple bad guys. Sure we used to train to fire 2 and assess, but that was in the revolver days. I do not understand the logic. Big strong guys complain about another few ounces to carry. It sounds like a line from Smokey and the Bandit " But daddy its too heavy when I put bullets in it".
Let's be honest..
To those who say they routinely carry lots of extra mags, speed loaders, speed strips, etc.. More power to you. But I hope you are training, training, Training on performing those reloads.
Me, I doubt my own abilities in the heat of the moment to: 1) find adequate cover to perform a reload smoothly and quickly while assessing the continuing threat, if any; and 2) to physically perform the reload under my body's adrenal dump, particularly where fine motor skills are involved such as reloading a snubby from a speed strip.
If I'm carrying a single stack do I carry spare mags? Absolutely, probably two of them. But if we're talking like for like, e.g. 16 rounds of *something* I'll carry a bigger gun (with no reload) if I can get away with it. No, I don't own a snubby and I'm sure there will be a few who find it easy to reload quickly. And not to say that it's not a good plan, in concept, I'll just bet there are very few who actually practice it in anything approaching a high stress environment.
Just a thought.
To those who say they routinely carry lots of extra mags, speed loaders, speed strips, etc.. More power to you. But I hope you are training, training, Training on performing those reloads.
Me, I doubt my own abilities in the heat of the moment to: 1) find adequate cover to perform a reload smoothly and quickly while assessing the continuing threat, if any; and 2) to physically perform the reload under my body's adrenal dump, particularly where fine motor skills are involved such as reloading a snubby from a speed strip.
If I'm carrying a single stack do I carry spare mags? Absolutely, probably two of them. But if we're talking like for like, e.g. 16 rounds of *something* I'll carry a bigger gun (with no reload) if I can get away with it. No, I don't own a snubby and I'm sure there will be a few who find it easy to reload quickly. And not to say that it's not a good plan, in concept, I'll just bet there are very few who actually practice it in anything approaching a high stress environment.
Just a thought.
DragonDog, is there a reason you assume others won't train?
I tend to assume people who go to the trouble of carrying and concealing on a regular basis will also put some effort into training.
Personally, I shoot IDPA twice a month, so practice reloading under time pressure on a fairly regular basis. I practice my reloading form, as well, at regular range sessions - once or twice a week.
While adrenaline dumps pose challenges, and while I haven't had to reload while under fire, I have somehow managed to work through lots of adrenaline in abruptly hazardous scenarios in airplanes and on motorcycles. I have to wonder if gunfights are necessarily more emotionally or physiologically disabling than other potentially lethal threats.
I have to think a fair percentage of people can function, at least somewhat well, under stress.
I tend to assume people who go to the trouble of carrying and concealing on a regular basis will also put some effort into training.
Personally, I shoot IDPA twice a month, so practice reloading under time pressure on a fairly regular basis. I practice my reloading form, as well, at regular range sessions - once or twice a week.
While adrenaline dumps pose challenges, and while I haven't had to reload while under fire, I have somehow managed to work through lots of adrenaline in abruptly hazardous scenarios in airplanes and on motorcycles. I have to wonder if gunfights are necessarily more emotionally or physiologically disabling than other potentially lethal threats.
I have to think a fair percentage of people can function, at least somewhat well, under stress.
I hope you're right. I just doubt that occasional training will be enough for most people. Not saying you, IDPA should leave you well prepared.
Where I'm coming from is that I used to teach kung fu, and it was always said by my instructor that it takes at least 3000 repetitions of some action to develop "muscle memory" where your body can perform that action under extreme duress. Fine motor skills all the more so, in my opinion.
*If* you accept that might be true, you'd have to put around 15k rounds downrange with a snubby and reloads to be able to fight with more than the first 5 rounds. Not saying it can't be done with fewer, but that is a huge number. Something to think about.
Where I'm coming from is that I used to teach kung fu, and it was always said by my instructor that it takes at least 3000 repetitions of some action to develop "muscle memory" where your body can perform that action under extreme duress. Fine motor skills all the more so, in my opinion.
*If* you accept that might be true, you'd have to put around 15k rounds downrange with a snubby and reloads to be able to fight with more than the first 5 rounds. Not saying it can't be done with fewer, but that is a huge number. Something to think about.
My guess is that an instructor would always say you need more training. It's like asking a barber if you need a haircut. But on the other hand, while I understand the thing about muscle memory, there is something worrisome about doing something automatically. Somethings maybe okay, other things not okay. It never follows that what you might do automatically is going to be the right thing to do, if you follow me.
Naturally, there's another side to that, too. The deadly thing is hesitation. Chances are, if you are being attacked, your attacker has done a little planning and set you up, so to say. You, on the hand, will probably be caught off guard. You can talk about situational awareness, which is appropriate, but if you were planning to attack someone, you would do your best to catch them unawares. So any hesitation on your part would be a failure, perhaps fatal. So the question is, exactly what muscle memory is being developed?
Naturally, there's another side to that, too. The deadly thing is hesitation. Chances are, if you are being attacked, your attacker has done a little planning and set you up, so to say. You, on the hand, will probably be caught off guard. You can talk about situational awareness, which is appropriate, but if you were planning to attack someone, you would do your best to catch them unawares. So any hesitation on your part would be a failure, perhaps fatal. So the question is, exactly what muscle memory is being developed?
OldMarksman
Staff
That which is associated with the draw, presentation, grip, and trigger control.Posted by BlueTrain: So the question is, exactly what muscle memory is being developed?
And, back on topic, dropping the magazine, working the slide, replacing the magazines, and chambering a round.
doubt, fear, mag changes...
I, for one, would also consider a spare magazine or 2 as a smart method if you train-condition to reload a fully charged pistol magazine when possible in a critical incident.
I too, agree that fear, stress, emotion, etc may lower your reaction time/skill level in a violent attack BUT, proper training & having the right mindset will get you through it.
To say; "I'm not sure I could do a reload-mag change, or I'll be to scared to handle my firearm correctly in a critical incident is just asking for trouble.
Guns & ammunition are not toys or props.
If you can't train properly or carry a loaded firearm with the right mindset then DON'T CARRY it at all.
I, for one, would also consider a spare magazine or 2 as a smart method if you train-condition to reload a fully charged pistol magazine when possible in a critical incident.
I too, agree that fear, stress, emotion, etc may lower your reaction time/skill level in a violent attack BUT, proper training & having the right mindset will get you through it.
To say; "I'm not sure I could do a reload-mag change, or I'll be to scared to handle my firearm correctly in a critical incident is just asking for trouble.
Guns & ammunition are not toys or props.
If you can't train properly or carry a loaded firearm with the right mindset then DON'T CARRY it at all.
Given BT's scenario (with which I agree - smart attackers look for opportune windows), training muscle memory to walk like you are comfortable and in control can preempt a lot of problems.
IE, train away any tendencies to walk in a nervous or tentative manner. Jackals do not typically prey on lions.
IE, train away any tendencies to walk in a nervous or tentative manner. Jackals do not typically prey on lions.
You folks are probably correct. Handling a firearm is one of the most difficult thing I can ever imagine doing. Why it makes double-clutching while shifting gears seem easy. Come to think of it, I learned to drive a six-speed manual transmission on a right-hand drive vehicle in about a thousand yards well enough to manage driving the length and width of England last year with no problem. Maybe the handgun you've been using the last 40 years isn't that difficult after all!
training to...walk like you are comfortable and in control can preempt a lot of problems.
Agreed.