#18indycolts
Moderator
less safe to NOT have one in the chamber?
That statement can go both ways.
carrying concealed
- Thread starter PanamaJane65
- Start date
less safe to NOT have one in the chamber?
That statement can go both ways.The original question points out that the unchambered round is due to children. If a firearm has limited access to only the people that are authorized to use it, how is having a round chambered less safe? Please help me understand how I am better served with a gun in Condition 3?
Some have recommended carrying chamber empty because they just didn't like safeties. They thought that sooner or later, they would be on when you thought they were off and vice versa. That individual actually recommended disabling all manual safeties. I wouldn't go that far and, besides, there are no on Glock pistols (and I don't consider the lever in the trigger to be a manual safety).
Personally, I don't think it can be adequately explained in writing. But good luck finding a trainer who will help. However, I think there are other considerations not previously mentioned, at least not in this thread.
First of all, I have a pistol that is difficult to retract the slide on because it is small and slick--and it's a double action with no hammer drop. I have had a couple others like that from having been refinished. But again, the Glock ought not have that problem.
I think a greater problem, though, with a pistol with a chambered round, single or double action, is the problem of what you do with it when it isn't being carried, unless you store it in a ready state, which is probably the case for most people. That might be a special consideration for cocked and locked carry with single actions but, again, not a problem with the Glock. But it always seemed like frequently chambering and rechambering a round in an automatic is a little chancy. Yes, I like revolvers. But I like automatics even better.
Personally, I don't think it can be adequately explained in writing. But good luck finding a trainer who will help. However, I think there are other considerations not previously mentioned, at least not in this thread.
First of all, I have a pistol that is difficult to retract the slide on because it is small and slick--and it's a double action with no hammer drop. I have had a couple others like that from having been refinished. But again, the Glock ought not have that problem.
I think a greater problem, though, with a pistol with a chambered round, single or double action, is the problem of what you do with it when it isn't being carried, unless you store it in a ready state, which is probably the case for most people. That might be a special consideration for cocked and locked carry with single actions but, again, not a problem with the Glock. But it always seemed like frequently chambering and rechambering a round in an automatic is a little chancy. Yes, I like revolvers. But I like automatics even better.
SquidWarrior
New member
I hate to side with everyone else, as I believe that the way one carries his weapon is that mans business, but I do not advise carrying condition three. If you feel you must, as soon as you clear the holster, grab the back of the slide and as you present to the target, the slide racks as you extend your arm and weapon out. Again, as an instructer I do not advise this.
We should look at the added discussion as value added to the thread. Several people posted the way to rack the slide: pull the slide to the rear and release it.
At least two posters seemed to indicate that there was a point they have not thought of before:
twellons acknowledging my point about a more reliable operation if the chamber is loaded under controlled conditions allowing for a second check
AND
myself acknowledging GuyMontag's point about having the weak hand free to push children to safety.
So, yes, a lot of added discussion above and beyond what was asked, but I think if we just come out from behind our "my way is the right way" shields and honestly consider what others have to say, we can all consider points that maybe we or the OP haven't thought about before.
Personally, I did not post instructions on how to rack the slide because they had already been posted.
At least two posters seemed to indicate that there was a point they have not thought of before:
twellons acknowledging my point about a more reliable operation if the chamber is loaded under controlled conditions allowing for a second check
AND
myself acknowledging GuyMontag's point about having the weak hand free to push children to safety.
So, yes, a lot of added discussion above and beyond what was asked, but I think if we just come out from behind our "my way is the right way" shields and honestly consider what others have to say, we can all consider points that maybe we or the OP haven't thought about before.
Personally, I did not post instructions on how to rack the slide because they had already been posted.
In answer to the OP's exact question, there is one element that has not been covered that is important:
on some guns such as the Taurus Mil Pro, the slide CANNOT be pulled back with the safety on. If PanamaJane's gun is a gun such as this, and she desires to carry it without a round in the chamber, I would highly recommend carrying it with the safety off because, without a round in the chamber, the safety is doing nothing other than preventing the slide from being pulled back.
on some guns such as the Taurus Mil Pro, the slide CANNOT be pulled back with the safety on. If PanamaJane's gun is a gun such as this, and she desires to carry it without a round in the chamber, I would highly recommend carrying it with the safety off because, without a round in the chamber, the safety is doing nothing other than preventing the slide from being pulled back.
ligonierbill
New member
First, I certainly hope your holster covers the trigger fully. I had an older Galco that did not. Second, and I need some help here, there are various types of "retention holsters" designed to keep a bad guy from taking a cop's gun. Usually not an issue for concealed carry, but kids are very inventive. Anyone know of such a holster designed for civilian CCW?
her gun is a glock. no safety on the outside. This is why I suggested a different gun, and then gave instructions on how to do it.
A different way would be to(on the strong side draw)
1. Pull the shirt up with the weak hand then put hand down to waist
2. grab pistol with strong hand bring pistol to waist level with weak hand
3. weak hand clamps to the slide and pulls back as the strong hand pulls forward.
4. let go with weak hand
5. take an aggressive 1 handed stance, fire and move.
6. move back, 2 hands, move forward 1 hand shooting.
Or you can draw and put it up to your pectoral level, weak hand goes to the front of slide, snaps it back and you can finish presenting or shoot from there in a compact position.
There are a million ways. experiment with what you are comfortable with, and practice it for like an hour a day every day. Why? because you are at a disadvantage and the practice/technique will have to make up for that
A different way would be to(on the strong side draw)
1. Pull the shirt up with the weak hand then put hand down to waist
2. grab pistol with strong hand bring pistol to waist level with weak hand
3. weak hand clamps to the slide and pulls back as the strong hand pulls forward.
4. let go with weak hand
5. take an aggressive 1 handed stance, fire and move.
6. move back, 2 hands, move forward 1 hand shooting.
Or you can draw and put it up to your pectoral level, weak hand goes to the front of slide, snaps it back and you can finish presenting or shoot from there in a compact position.
There are a million ways. experiment with what you are comfortable with, and practice it for like an hour a day every day. Why? because you are at a disadvantage and the practice/technique will have to make up for that
rainmaker870
New member
I too have to side with carrying a chambered round, but.... if you have already determined that doing so is not for you, check out something called the "Israeli Instinctive Shooting Method." I don't like it, I don't subscribe to it. It strongly advocates carrying withOUT a round in the chamber, and goes into great detail (much more than is possible here) on how to quickly chamber a round. With two (2) hands, all the time.
As previously stated it's difficult to do if you're trying to manage a small child at the same time. It's probably the best method you will find for what you want do to.
And, once you've spent some time with the concept, if you still feel the need to carry without a round in the chamber, do some research on wounded officer drills and the like; those will address the ability to chamber a round ONE handed.
As previously stated it's difficult to do if you're trying to manage a small child at the same time. It's probably the best method you will find for what you want do to.
And, once you've spent some time with the concept, if you still feel the need to carry without a round in the chamber, do some research on wounded officer drills and the like; those will address the ability to chamber a round ONE handed.
tpareloader
New member
israeli draw
Jane look up the israeli draw, that is what your are looking for. You can find it on you tube or just google it. It is designed for people who do not carry one in the chamber.
Jane look up the israeli draw, that is what your are looking for. You can find it on you tube or just google it. It is designed for people who do not carry one in the chamber.
that was back in the day, Israeli draw isn't used by Israel anymore
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/96599/pro_security_training_in_guatemala/
found a vid. seems like they put the pistol in front of the face, rack it and fire one handed before placing the 2nd hand to the gun
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/96599/pro_security_training_in_guatemala/
found a vid. seems like they put the pistol in front of the face, rack it and fire one handed before placing the 2nd hand to the gun
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Just playing devil's advocate here, and I'm not saying you should carry on empty, but what would happen if you normally carry one in the pipe and for some reason fail or forget to chamber it some day? The argument for one in the chamber is instant readiness, but what if that first pull you depend on clicks empty? It would take longer to recover from that than the other case where you know you have to rack one in and get proficient at doing it.
Or you could do what most of us do:
1. Insert magazine
2. Chamber round
3. Holster gun
4. Leave it in the holster
When you get home, put it away (still in holster, still loaded) in whatever safe location that you store your firearms (safe, gun cabinet, sock drawer, any other location that you keep your gun).
I would love to be able to do this, but since I live on a military installation that prohibits concealed carry and transport of loaded weapons in vehicles; I typically pull over about 1/4 mile from the gate, release mag, rack slide/empty chamber, put the gun in the center console and the mag in the glove compartment. I keep my gun in a holster on my nightstand with mag inserted, empty chamber.
It's all about personal preference, but if you're going to be carrying the gun, might as well have it loaded. Your kids shouldn't have access to it while it's on your hip...
I carry with an open chamber most of the time
Because it's what I'm used to. When a situation arises that I feel a need to be armed I draw the weapon, chamber a round and re-holster. There are a few reasons for this: 1-I clear my guns alot, I never store a weapon with a mag in if I am in my car and say, headed into a tavern or government building, this saves me from having to catch an ejected round; 2-The situation in which the citizen has to draw and fire against a charging mugger is not what I train for, I am personally more concerned with multiple commando-types attacking a soft target I happen to be at (such as the recent Mumbai attacks in India) or a bank robbery scenario; 3- I often carry with my gun in a holster inside of a messenger bag, I find this is the least apparent method (printing and so on) and while it is not as ready as an uncomfortable IWB, it's better than being unarmed.
Also, I think in many cases opening my jacket and blazing away will probably just get me shot by an accomplice before I take down the whole crew. I am certainly not fast-draw McGraw with the unshakable aim of a western movie gunslinger, So I go for surprise/ambush over speed.
FWIW I don't have any carpet-crawlers to complicate my plans... yet.
Because it's what I'm used to. When a situation arises that I feel a need to be armed I draw the weapon, chamber a round and re-holster. There are a few reasons for this: 1-I clear my guns alot, I never store a weapon with a mag in if I am in my car and say, headed into a tavern or government building, this saves me from having to catch an ejected round; 2-The situation in which the citizen has to draw and fire against a charging mugger is not what I train for, I am personally more concerned with multiple commando-types attacking a soft target I happen to be at (such as the recent Mumbai attacks in India) or a bank robbery scenario; 3- I often carry with my gun in a holster inside of a messenger bag, I find this is the least apparent method (printing and so on) and while it is not as ready as an uncomfortable IWB, it's better than being unarmed.
Also, I think in many cases opening my jacket and blazing away will probably just get me shot by an accomplice before I take down the whole crew. I am certainly not fast-draw McGraw with the unshakable aim of a western movie gunslinger, So I go for surprise/ambush over speed.
FWIW I don't have any carpet-crawlers to complicate my plans... yet.
Ian's post brings up one more thing: the less unnecessary handling of the gun you do during the day, the less likely you are to experience an accidental or negligent discharge.
That's what failure drills are for. Habituate yourself to immediately Tap, Rack, (assess and) Bang if the gun doesn't fire. You need to practice failure drills regardless of your standard carry method, of course.
pax
That's what failure drills are for. Habituate yourself to immediately Tap, Rack, (assess and) Bang if the gun doesn't fire. You need to practice failure drills regardless of your standard carry method, of course.
pax
David Armstrong
Moderator
As I have always said, there are advantages and disadvantages to carrying either way, chamber loaded or chamber empty. The big issue is just what disadvantages one wants to address and what advantages are best for the individual in that situation. Thus chamber empty may be quite valid for some. Also, in spite of all the gloom and doom scenarios that are tossed around, when chamber empty carry was the common method of carrrying an autolader (most of the 20th Century and most of the world) we just didn't see all these claimed problems occurring. Having said my piece on that--
JANE, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION:
The Israeli Method (which I like, use, and train when appropriate) starts with the gun on your strong side. The cover garment is cleared in a number of ways, depending on what it is. A shirt, worn untucked, the best way is probably to raise the shirt em upward with your offf-hand. The gun is grasped securely and brought up toward a position approximately 8 inches in front of and slightly below your chin, turned horizontal. As this is happening, the off hand drops the shirt and comes below and behind the gun, then moves forward to grasp the gun as follows:
Off-hand thumb on the side of the slide facing up. Thumb should be facing forward, pointing at the target. Index finger of the off-hand is on the side of the slide that is facing down. Contact should be primarily the fleshy pad of the side on the finger joint that is attached to the hand. The actual top of the slide, where the sights are, should be in the area between the thumb and index finger. While holding both the slide and the frame tightly, one makes a sharp pull with the off-hand pulling the slide all the way to the rear, an dreleasing it. As the slide is released the off-hand moves forward into support while the strong hand rotates the gun to an upright position. Fire as needed.
While it sounds complicated, you'd be surprised how easy it actually is with a little practice, and how fast it is. My students generally find their overall presentation time to be increased by about 2/10ths of a second with onlyh about 10 minutes of practice.
JANE, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION:
The Israeli Method (which I like, use, and train when appropriate) starts with the gun on your strong side. The cover garment is cleared in a number of ways, depending on what it is. A shirt, worn untucked, the best way is probably to raise the shirt em upward with your offf-hand. The gun is grasped securely and brought up toward a position approximately 8 inches in front of and slightly below your chin, turned horizontal. As this is happening, the off hand drops the shirt and comes below and behind the gun, then moves forward to grasp the gun as follows:
Off-hand thumb on the side of the slide facing up. Thumb should be facing forward, pointing at the target. Index finger of the off-hand is on the side of the slide that is facing down. Contact should be primarily the fleshy pad of the side on the finger joint that is attached to the hand. The actual top of the slide, where the sights are, should be in the area between the thumb and index finger. While holding both the slide and the frame tightly, one makes a sharp pull with the off-hand pulling the slide all the way to the rear, an dreleasing it. As the slide is released the off-hand moves forward into support while the strong hand rotates the gun to an upright position. Fire as needed.
While it sounds complicated, you'd be surprised how easy it actually is with a little practice, and how fast it is. My students generally find their overall presentation time to be increased by about 2/10ths of a second with onlyh about 10 minutes of practice.
I watched a couple videos on that form , and I am having trouble understanding the necessity of drawing the gun so close to the face and holding sideways rather than bringing the gun up in the natural arc towards the target with the thumb pointing towards yourself and using the 4 fingers and palm of your hand to rack the slide. Seems a more natural position of the hands and the gun as they are traveling to the target.
rainmaker870
New member
As it was explained to me, bringing the gun up to the face gets it in the plane of vision as you look at your target. Also as it was *taught* to me, rather than pulling with the off hand you hold the slide stationary in the off hand and punch out toward the target with the gun/strong hand, thus using the muscles in your strong arm to work the slide as you move the gun away from you; rotate the gun into firing position as you do so. Fire as necessary, bringing your off hand to the gun to complete the two hand hold. As I read this it becomes obvious to me as to why I am not an instructor.
I don't like it and didn't adopt it; it does help address the issues involved in carrying with an empty chamber and may work well for Jane or other folks who are so inclined.
David Armstrong
Moderator
It brings the gun into your plane of vision so you can begin to focus on the weapon and the target. There is also a muscle control issue, as the hands are restricted a bit in how far they can get from each other during the racking. Overall it is faster than trying to rack as you describe.
It is actually a combination push/pull in a very short, sharp movement when done by those that have a bit of experience. I like to teach just the slide first as it seems easier for those with no experience to use, and it gets them used to getting the support hand back on the gun quickly. There are many variations on a theme, just like the variations to the Modern Technique.
Not just "Israeli Carry", military carry:
Our military and most other countries I have trained with (Republic of Korea, Thailand, Australia and Canada) also use condition 3 carry with sidearm pistols in most situations, particularly in vehicles. Once a threat is present the weapon and shooter go to condition 1; until that time it is nearly damn impossible for the gun to go off unintended.
Of course, as a general rule, the military determines SOP because of things that have gone wrong, not that could possibly occur somewhere on an internet forum... No round in the chamber equals no round coming out of the barrel, period.
Our military and most other countries I have trained with (Republic of Korea, Thailand, Australia and Canada) also use condition 3 carry with sidearm pistols in most situations, particularly in vehicles. Once a threat is present the weapon and shooter go to condition 1; until that time it is nearly damn impossible for the gun to go off unintended.
Of course, as a general rule, the military determines SOP because of things that have gone wrong, not that could possibly occur somewhere on an internet forum... No round in the chamber equals no round coming out of the barrel, period.
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