"Carry Rotation"

[OldMarksman]

Right and my argument is, should the defensive position be so grave that those mili-seconds matter and the individual loses enough thought process that he or she must depend on muscle memory, it is unlikely the difference is going to matter.

First, those fractions of a second may well matter a great deal.

An attacker moving at five meters per second will move about a meter in two tenths of a second. That's arm's length, striking distance with a bladed weapon. Combine that with the time required to recognize the threat, draw, and fire, and you still have to figure in the time it takes for your hits to stop the attacker.

That's precious little time.

Second, we are not talking about "muscle memory" vs "thought process". We are discussing total time.

That means the time needed to observe, recognize, make rapid cognitive decisions, react, and respond--plus the time it takes for the force used to take effect.

Have you ever observed people using firearms in a classic Tueller exercise? It's scary.

In the Combat Focus Training class, a number of basic skills are developed, and the combined, layered skills are used to demonstrate what I have described above.

One of the things one does in that routine is to start moving laterally and to draw while doing so. That's because of the importance of every fraction of a second.

 

[KyJim]

I posted the quoted material below in another thread. Mr. Thomas' story illustrates, among other things, that it is entirely possible to have multiple guns, even those with multiple manuals of arms, and still be effective.

For those of you relatively new to this whole thing, I would recommend looking into the shootouts Rolex watch seller Lance Thomas had with robbers. There were ultimately four shootouts and 11 bad guys thwarted, including five dead and one wounded. A repost of Massad Ayoobs article about it is available at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?45333-Urban-Gunfighter-(-The-Lance-Thomas-story). A national TV story about it, inclduing interviews with Mr. Thomas are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w.

Two lessons pertinent to the discussion here can be drawn. First, you don't have to be a trained Seal to protect your life. Mr. Thomas appeared to be an "average" gun owner when the first shootout occurred. Second, chances improve with training and firepower. Mr. Thomas recognized the need for both and procured both. These undoubtedly helped save him in the subsequent shootouts.

 

[huntinaz]

Bill did not opine about anyone's intelligence or knowledge or level of proficiency.

And, it was not, "I'm smarter than you (though I probably am.)

Haha except mine. Way to back me up Bill

 

[OldMarksman]

As I mentioned in Post #53, I divested a couple of pistols with manual safeties that were somewhat dissimilar. One main reason was the realization that, after a long day, I would not necessarily have what I had put in the holster that morning in the forefront of my consciousness, and that goes to this "carry rotation" discussion.

By the way, I only take the gun out of the holster at night and to bathe.

I had another reason: I had decided that having to perform that extra, separate step to disengage the safety was not really a good thing.

But I do like the idea of having something to mitigate the risk of an unintentional discharge that might be caused by the entry of stray clothing into an empty holster.

I switched to an XDS, with a grip safety that does not require a separate operation.

However, I did retain an officers' frame 1911-type pistol, and I have carried it on occasion for various reasons.

My reasoning is that the location and operation of the 1911 safety make disengagement an almost automatic movement that takes place as the gun is raised.

Rationalization? Maybe. A bad idea? I hope I never find out.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Once you find the gun, learn the gun, wear the gun- that gun becomes a part of you. Once it happens, you will understand.
I have lots of guns-LOTS! I love them- some even more than others. But, the one I carry is different. It's always there. I don't have to think about it at all. I know what it will do and what I can do with it.

 

[JohnKSa]

I like this story for two reasons.

https://www.shootersforum.com/general-discussion/3817-9mm-bear.html

The guy armed with what most would consider an effective weapon in the circumstances, literally threw it away in a panic because he couldn't remember how he had prepared/if he was prepared.

The guy armed with what most wouldn't consider to be an effective weapon under the circumstances, prevailed because he had prepared properly, because he kept a cool head and delivered accurate fire under highly stressful circumstances.

...the idea is laughable that a person can't be competent enough to switch back and forth, the Dunning–Kruger effect is certainly in play here.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is that, people who are incompetent in a certain field, tend to grade their competence much higher than it really is because it takes competence to recognize competence. On the other hand, those who are highly competent, tend to grade their competence a little lower that it really is because they have a better understanding of the relevant complexities that may escape those who are only moderately competent.

I don't see how it applies here.

If the people who disagree with you are on the incompetent end of the scale, then the Dunning-Kruger effect would suggest that they would be overconfident, not recommending caution.

On the other hand, if the people who disagree with you are on the highly competent end of the scale (the other area where the Dunning-Kruger effect is evident), while they might underestimate their own competence slightly, they would be doing so out of an abundance of skill and experience. Which would make listening to what they have to say an excellent idea.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Love the story, John:

1. Pistol grip shotgun
2. Unchambered carry when the gun might be needed fast

What else could go wrong? I knew a guy who was charged by a Texas boar by surprise. He had a pistol grip shotgun and poked it in the snout with the gun and it ran off to his surprise. He added a stock to the gun.

 

[doofus47]

I rotate between a Walther p99 compact and a Walther PPS classic.
Same sight picture, same mag release.

I agree, BilldeShivs

 

[mavracer]

I don't see how it applies here.

Oh the irony.

 

[Rangerrich99]

I see this term a lot lately.
Please take this advice in the spirit in which it is given-from a very experienced carrier.

If you have a "carry rotation," it darned well better be 2 of the same gun, or models that are extremely similar.

Thanks, Bill.

I actually started feeling this way a few years ago, whereas in my younger days I always felt confident that I could make the adjustment instantaneously regardless of what I carried that day.

That changed one night about three years ago when I heard a 'bump in the night,' and reached for my nightstand gun from a dead sleep, and for a moment I had no idea which gun was in my hand. Soon after I decided to trade/sell all of my handguns that weren't a 1911 pattern or very similar.

Well, I didn't go that crazy, but I did change my carry 'rotation' to guns that were either 1911s or functionally similar, such as my Shield.

The one exception to this seems to be my revolvers. For some reason I can tell just by touch if I grabbed a revolver vs. anything else. Even from a dead sleep. And of course, there's no issue of fumbling the controls on a DA revolver; true point-and-shoot systems.

 

[john in jax]

I carried 1911 style pistols in 45acp for a decade or two and would not hesitate to carry one again. 1911s just work for me.

BUT, several years ago I made the move to Glocks, first a G30 to stick with the .45acp round I was so accustomed to and then to the G23 trading off a little energy for several more rounds. Right now my EDC is the G23, but if I can't dress around it I I go with G43 I can pocket carry.

I totally agree that you need to be 100% comfortable/competent with your EDC. If you have to draw a fire the operation of it needs to be automatic and instinctual. Hours and hours of training with the same or similar platform will build automatic reflexive actions that could save your life.

 

[JohnKSa]

Oh the irony.

The Dunning-Kruger effect explains: 1. Why incompetent people significantly overestimate their competence and 2. Why highly competent people slightly underestimate their competence.

In other words, the Dunning-Kruger effect applies to people who are either significantly overestimating their competence, or to people who are highly competent.

So can you explain which of those two categories you had in mind when you made your comment?

Here's a link to the paper in case you would like to review it prior to responding. It's a good read.

http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/teaching/p7536_heurbias/p7536_readings/kruger_dunning.pdf

 

[Brit]

A question I was asked when I applied to be a Volunteer with Orange County Sheriffs Office. Have you ever been in a physical fight, as an adult?

Broken down, that is past the age of 18. Looking in to this seemingly simple question, it appears the most common answer is no.

Now take an individual, male or female, who has never had a fight, after the age of 18. Place a handgun on their person, the ultimate in fighting tools, fires projectiles, that can cause death, or grievous injury, and expect them to use it, against an other human? Accompanied, by a huge shot of adrenaline, and blood pressure through the roof. Can we just say, it would be a stretch?

Also, the rotation Chaps, muddy the waters with different firearms, safety catch, no safety catch, on belt, in pocket?

The good news is, most carriers of handguns, owners of concealed carry licenses, will never get to draw them in a real attack (Thank Heavens) or even draw one, and not fire it.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Right and my argument is, should the defensive position be so grave that those mili-seconds matter and the individual loses enough thought process that he or she must depend on muscle memory, it is unlikely the difference is going to matter.

I once watched a video of a robbery victim who had a good 15-17 seconds where the robber wasn't paying attention to him. He spent about 8-9 seconds rummaging through a drawer for a pistol, then another few seconds racking the slide. He had just finished doing the point the gun, pull trigger, look at gun, reach up with weak hand to flip off safety, point gun again thing when he got center punched by a very surprised robber who nevertheless knew his manual of arms.

The murder/robbery victim was an ex-military guy to boot. I can't tell you if he got so rattled at having a pistol stuck in his face that he forgot all his training or that he was just never well trained to begin with; but being able to even slowly execute his manual of arms without thinking about it would have given him an extra 10 seconds in a gunfight. And 10 seconds is a lot of time in a gunfight.

 

[mavracer]

The Dunning-Kruger effect explains: 1. Why incompetent people significantly overestimate their competence ........

In essence, we argue that the skills that endanger competence in a particular domain are often the very same skills necessary to evaluate competence in that domain---One's own or anyone else's

much as you overestimate your low understanding of the Dunning-Kruger effect you fail to recognize a superior understanding.

Same as OP's projection of his low manual dexterity on others

 

[MandolinMan]

I think the problem here is that the discussion is necessarily hypothetical. Until it becomes necessary to use your handgun in a self defense situation, its really impossible to know how you will respond. So there's two ways to approach this:

1) Keep things simple, carry the same/very similiar guns, and avoid the possibility of confusing controls in a self defense situation.

2) Train extensively with multiple platforms, carry guns with different controls, and presume your competence to correctly operate the gun in hand during a self defense situation.

 

[44 AMP]

That does not mean I will not act just as quickly and accurately with my LCP or revolver in a high stress situation. Having never had to draw a weapon​ in a life threatening encounter I can't know this for sure. I don't accept that having a thumb safety on my primary carry, and not on my secondary​ ones puts me at greater risk.

I agree, I don't see how having a safety on your primary arm, and none on your secondary could put you at risk, however, I can see how the reverse is not true. The same with having a safety on your secondary that is in a different place, or works differently COULD put you at risk.

Also, I don't understand the hostility about being told a long established fact. When you are operating without conscious, specific thought about the individual acts you are doing, it is a long proven fact that the majority of people will do what they trained to do (no matter if it is the right thing for the situation or not) and that includes "self taught" training.

And, it doesn't have to be a gunfight /ambush /life at risk situation, it applies to any, and possibly every situation where you simply aren't thinking, just reacting.

Certainly we ALL know what gun is in our hands when we get ready to shoot, on the conscious level. It's the level just below that where changes can have huge UNINTENDED consequences.

Stepping on the "clutch" pedal when you are driving an automatic will result in an unexpected action (especially strong if its a power brake pedal). Not usually a life and death situation, because it normally happens only the FIRST time you stop. After that, part of your "autopilot" is "recalibrated" for power brakes.

Missing the opportunity for a shot, because you usually "drive" a gun with no safety and today have one that does, could be important. Likewise your usual gun having its safety in a spot different from the one you are holding today. Or the direction the safety works is opposite. If you are running on "autopilot" these changes can have drastic results.

I've learned this from personal experience, fortunately, in my case, with no injury or loss of life as a result, but the lesson sunk in.

Almost no one believes it can happen to them, until after it does.

 

[shafter]

A tradesman can switch back and forth between tools just like one can switch back and forth between guns at the range. Neither is fighting for their life under stress.

Rotating carry guns isn't suicidal IMO, but it could make a difference when you've been ambushed and it comes down to speed and instinct.

 

[James K]

I have been preaching the "one gun or similar guns" sermon for years, and almost always hear from the dedicated "multiple gun" folks, usually the ones who seriously believe there is an advantage of some kind in carrying widely varying guns depending on the day of the week, the phase of the moon, or the weather.

And of course there are the folks who carry multiple guns, like the guy who claims that he routinely carries up to eight guns at once, and the fellow who carries "two big Glocks, two small Glocks, three magazines for each gun, a box of ammo for each gun, a pair of nunchuks, and a large Bowie knife." How he manages to walk, I don't know, but if he is ever uses any of those weapons and is arrested, the police report should be, well, interesting.

Jim

 

[OldMarksman]

I think the problem here is that the discussion is necessarily hypothetical. Until it becomes necessary to use your handgun in a self defense situation, its really impossible to know how you will respond.

Yep.

So there's two ways to approach this:

1) Keep things simple, carry the same/very similiar guns, and avoid the possibility of confusing controls in a self defense situation.

2) Train extensively with multiple platforms, carry guns with different controls, and presume your competence to correctly operate the gun in hand during a self defense situation.

I can be very competent indeed with every gun that I own.

The question is one of whether my reaction time will be any different because I have to establish first which one I am carrying when the need arises.