"Carry Rotation"

[OldMarksman]

No, it was a very pointed one directed at folks who do things differently than you. You essentially worded is as: I'm smarter than you, I'm better than you and you darned well better be doing it this way or your liable to get killed.

If Bill's advice were not largely the same as that of the best trainers in the field, one might interpret it hat way. But it is not just Bill who believes in what he has said here.

I suggest that trainers who observe large numbers of students trying out different techniques, and in my experience that has meant seeing the same people try different firearms or carry positions during a class for various reasons, probably do have a better grasp on this and other relevant fusions than do most of us.

....people can learn to shoot and be proficient with a number of different firearms and can tell the difference when carrying one or another.

My guess is that you are a very proficient shooter....

That brings up something worthwhile to keep in mind.

The I. C. E. PDN trainers, including Walt Cunningham, Rob Pincus, and the others, like to distinguish between "good shooting" and the effective defensive use of a firearm, and all of that the latter entails.

The reason for what they advise relative to this issue, which is the same thing that Bill DeShivs advised in the OP, is that it does not really pertain to proficiency in shooting the firearm, or even to drawing, presenting, and shooting, when that is what the shooter has set out to do.

Rather, it has to do with what happens when a citizen is suddenly faced with an explosive, unexpected violent situation when he or she has not been expecting it.

Might I respectfully suggest that you and everyone else here who may tend to think of this in terms of "proficiency" look into one of the relevant I. C. E. PDN home study courses, or better yet, attend a class.

 

[OldMarksman]

A post that said hey folks, practice and practice drawing your carry firearm(s) would have been extremely more informative and helpful.

Helpful, yes, but it would have missed completely the key point, which is the importance of carrying the same kind of gun the same way every day.

 

[OldMarksman]

One book that is worth reading slowly and thoughtfully that is now out of print is Counter Ambush--The Science of Training for the Unexpected Defensive Shooting, by Rob Pincus. You may be able to obtain a copy.

Here's a review from Amazon:

"The title threw me. It sounded to me like something suited for soldiers entering Tikrit. When I asked the author, Rob Pincus, why he chose that title, he answered me, but I must confess that I was still not entirely sure.

"Now I understand. The title says it all.

"Think for a minute. When we leave the restaurant for the car, or leave the car for the treck across the parking lot to the supermarket, we are not knowingly heading toward a place where we know we will stand to shoot at a target, which will be located "down range", and we are not going to be given a command to shoot, and we will not be scored by a timer or a number of hits, nor will our score be reduced for misses or hits out of sequences. No! We are not heading out to shoot at all. That is the farthest thing from our minds.

"But, should the unlikely and unexpected and worst occur--an ambush--we will have to make some rapid cognitive decisions on our own, observe, react, recognize, and respond. That is not the time to rely upon improvisation. It is the time to utilize basic skills learned in training.

"As an attorney from Arkansas likes to put it, a gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

"The book goes into depth on psychology, physiological reactions and how to train, and still more on training. There is a little bit on shooting, firearms, and ammunition, but those are not really what the book is about.

"I think the book is great, but don't take my word for it. In his foreword, LTC Dave Grossman starts with "You hold in your hands one of the most important book of our kind. First, this a vital, lifesaving resource."

"Pincus spends a lot of time discussing the philosophy, the beginnings, the raison d'être, and the evolution, over the last couple of decades, of the I.C. E. Combat Focus Training course. The discussion covers the years in which it was delivered at Valhalla Shooting Cub, when key customers included SOCOM operatives and instructors from both Army and Navy units as all as agents of foreign governments.

"Let me be clear that what I think is most important about it is the knowledge it contains that could be useful to ordinary armed citizens going about their daily business, and trying their best to avoid combat."​

Books are great, but training is better. and Combat Focus Training, which is available at a number of sites every year, is worth every penny.

It is extremely important to distinguish between practicing the draw and training to observe, decide, react, recognize, and respond instantly when there is no buzzer and when we have not been told where the target is.

Same or similar gun every day? Rob and others have given us their advice, and I think it likely that anyone who has gone the the Combat Focus Training course will come to the same conclusion.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Did anyone miss, "train with it until you know it's every nuance."?

And, it was not, "I'm smarter than you (though I probably am.) It was "please take this as very good advice from someone who is probably more experienced than you."

And my original post was very generalized. I have no doubt that I could PROBABLY deploy most any gun that I desired to carry- but, guess what?
I carry the same gun in the same place every day.

Maybe you can do otherwise, but my post was to give you the benefit of a lot of experience and study-and maybe even save your life.

Now- you can take my advice and do what you want with it. You have already told me what I can do with it.

 

[lefteye]

The OP is 100% correct! Think about it folks. Eating something with a fork is not the same as eating something with a spoon, yet we all do both frequently. But we all use fractions of a second (or more) to adapt to the change in utensils. In a life or death situation you don't want to waste a fraction of a second to remember if you have a fork or spoon - or a 1911 or a .357 3"revolver.

 

[Brit]

Ambush?

Not sure if I have spoke, written about this incident here?

It happened a couple of years ago, half a mile from home, in our local Publix Grocery Store.

First let me say, shopping with my Wife is not a pastime I relish! So on this particular afternoon, I had opted out, and was reading a Library Book in the Jeep, a marked Security vehicle, my Son supplies me with a gas card, what can I say! My Wife doing the look, press, and shake routine she likes.

My Cell phone rings "There are two young guys, pants hanging, dread locks, following me about, they have no basket, or cart"

"Call me when you are at the check out line, I will be under the overhang, walk slowly out, come out of the far right door, then walk a little faster, keep close to the right wall"

That is what happened. The two not local Hoodsters were about 7 yards behind her. These two were from no were near Dr. Phillips!

They had no grocery's, the one on my left closest to the wall, my Wife was walking by, was focused on my Lady. His buddy was scanning. He saw me!

I was standing behind the Jeep, they both had hands clear of there pockets (amazing how there pants stayed up!) Scanner grabbed his buddy's arm, and they took off like rabbits, to the Road. They had no car, my Wife had the keys to their ride.

What went through my mind, my 9mm is going to be really loud! I was not that worried, I held all the surprise on my side. But 5 minutes later, the Adrenalin hit! Might have found it hard to drink a full glass of water!

Being married to paranoid Harry for twenty five years, paid off.

Told the Manager? He was mildly interested.

That same store was robbed a year later, at closing time. And yes, I walk with the love of my life now. Still carry my Glock 19 Gen 4, same place, as always.

 

[Spats McGee]

I've only ever had 3 carry guns: a 1911, an LCR, and a Glock 19. For the past 3-4 years, I carry either the LCR or the G19 about 98% of the time. (Though I do occasionally fall to the siren song of the 1911.)

For me, it's not a question about whether *somebody* could be proficient with different systems and carry locations. It's about whether *I* can. I'm 47 years old with a ~50 hour per week job and school tuition to pay. I'm lucky if I can get to the range 5 times per year. I have neither the time nor the budget to cross-train with several pistols until I develop enough muscle memory to be comfortable with all of them. So I stick to one set of controls: point and shoot.

OldMarksman -- Nice review. I wonder who that wise Arkansas lawyer could have been who said that a gunfight is not the time to learn new skills?

 

[Lohman446]

It is likely that none of us will ever find out.

I think this is the important part. We are all arguing this from different concepts. I get the argument of stress and muscle memory. I get the concept of tunnel vision. I also get the concept that until the unforeseen actually occurs we will not know and these incidents are often not remembered clearly or spoken about often.

I propose that the person most capable of thinking his or her way through an extreme stress situation is the one most likely to come out of it alive. The problem is there is no way of knowing who this is and effectively training for it in a true life and death situation is beyond complicated.

Muscle memory is all good and fine. However I worry that taken to the extreme this is troublesome. We are discussing the split difference response time when suddenly and unexpectedly ambushed to where our mind does not think clearly. The ability when met with surprise to evaluate the threat, draw, and fire in a manner that is both effective and quick enough to defeat multiple attackers who have taken you by surprise. I'm sorry but there are levels one can train for and levels one cannot. This is the level where I simply admit I am not "winning" Multiple competent and determined attackers given the value of surprise against me are going to overcome what defenses I can muster.

That being said. There are some of you, judging by what is written here, that should make very certain none of your friends ever throw you a surprise party of any type or in any other way startle you. You might misjudge on the evaluate the threat portion and muscle memory could take over.

Edit: Please note that I started this discussion arguing that if one trains with a "complicated" firearm such as a 1911 he or she should carry a similar firearm or one less complicated. Swiping at a non-existent safety lever under muscle memory is fairly meaningless. Failing to swipe a safety is not. Switching to a safety that moves in the opposite direction could be tremendously detrimental.

 

[OldMarksman]

Muscle memory is all good and fine.

Yes, it is only part of the picture, and a small part, at that.

However I worry that taken to the extreme this is troublesome.

Why? What do you mean by "taken to the extreme'?

We are discussing the split difference response time when suddenly and unexpectedly ambushed to where our mind does not think clearly.

Clear thinking is, of course, paramount.

The ability when met with surprise to evaluate the threat, draw, and fire in a manner that is both effective and quick enough to defeat multiple attackers who have taken you by surprise.

That is not a complete sentence, and yes, there may be more than one assailant, but you have described the issue.

Multiple competent and determined attackers given the value of surprise against me are going to overcome what defenses I can muster.

A rather defeatist attitude, I think.

Do you believe that you will be faced with a self defense situation that does not involve surprise?

That being said. There are some of you, judging by what is written here, that should make very certain none of your friends ever throw you a surprise party of any type or in any other way startle you. You might misjudge on the evaluate the threat portion and muscle memory could take over.

I do not see that at all.

 

[P5 Guy]

Too Many Choices?

I'm not a wealthy person, my rotation contains a G26.
It was a Walther P5c but that got to be too valuable to be lost in an evidence locker should I have ever needed to use it. So, I sold it and used the proceeds to purchase the Glock, holster and extra magazines. This works for me.

 

[cslinger]

One of the nice things about most modern tactical Tupperware is how easily it can be changed for fairly deep carry to fullish size home defense. The Glock 26 is a perfect example. A 10 round flat baseplate mag in it makes a super small package. Add a G19 or even 17 mag with a sleeve and you have a full grip full capacity handgun for the night stand. Same gun, no muss no fuss to change its roles.

I don't get surprise parties anymore. I mean geez I only winged the guy. You would think he would be over it by now but nooooooo.

 

[Lohman446]

Do you believe that you will be faced with a self defense situation that does not involve surprise?

What exact training does one have to think that he or she is going to be so well trained and ingrained that muscle memory is going to be able to overcome the threat without being able to identify what gun he or she is shooting? What situation are you preparing for. Survivors reporting they do not remember does not necessitate that their minds did not perceive it - it simply indicates the brain prioritized action over memory.

If I am taken by surprise by competent and determined attackers I don't kid myself about the likely outcome. I don't have the training facilities to be able to train in that manner with a firearm to overcome that. Pragmatically I am not willing to walk around and respond to any surprise in that violent of a fashion. By the time I recognize such a threat a competent attack would have rendered my unable to respond. If I held myself constantly in the ready to respond violently someone would surprise me and get the wrong response.

Let me try to illustrate it differently. One time at a family gathering we were playing football outside. The good news is we were playing football outside and I was not carrying. My wife thought it would be funny, during a break in the action, to sneak up behind me and try a choke hold. My wife ended up over and on the ground in front of her entire family and I looked like a jerk. Muscle memory and all that....

Some of you are advocating that kind of readiness with a firearm. I hope no one throws you a surprise party.

 

[OldMarksman]

Let's go back to "When I pick up a revolver I know it's a revolver. When I pick up a 1911, I know it's a 1911. When I pick up an XD...".

Yes, we do know what it is when we pick it up. We know what it is what we practice drawing from concealment in the living room. We know what it is what we take it to the range. We even know what it is what we take it with us to the Combat Focus Training Class.

So, the question is, what is the underlying reason for Bill's advice, which is consistent with that of many good trainers.

And in all honesty, that is a good question. It is an excellent question.

I did not understand it, except perhaps in the abstract, until some time after I had taken the Combat Focus Training course.

As I went about my daily business, I reflected upon what I had learned. I spent more time thinking about how closely I should walk past the corner of a building to my car, or close to a parked van with a couple of pairs of feet on the other side, or near a dumpster.

I reflected upon what to stay alert for, and upon what I might have to do in the gravest extreme.

And then it dawned on me.

Frankly, the fact that I had strapped on a Ruger with one kind of safety, or a 1911 with a different kind, or a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 with a still different kind, would not have remained high in my consciousness all day. Nor would whether I were carrying in a retention holster or not.

If I had to reach for whichever one I was carrying, I would certainly figure it out quickly--but perhaps not quickly enough.

It was not a matter of how much I had practiced with each.

For the citizen whose "carry rotation" also includes includes an H&K P7 and a SIG DA/SA, there is still more to narrow down.

The importance of that was amplified in my mind by watching Tueller exercises. Fact is, those are pretty scary under the best of circumstances.

I divested myself of some pistols, narrowing down to two types.

One might be better.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Much of the resistance to my original post may be because people justify buying guns by thinking "I could carry this.." We all may be guilty of that.
My sense of a problem comes when inexperienced people actually carry multiple types of different guns.
I tell you this because, many years ago I did the same thing.

It's good to be proficient with many types of firearms. It's even better to own lots of them!

But when you get over having all the new guns and have found the one that works best for you, learn it like your tongue knows your teeth, learn to shoot it instinctively and accurately, and carry it the same way and place-as much as is possible. That gun, or type of gun, then becomes a part of you. Regardless of how many guns you own, that gun or type becomes YOUR gun.

 

[OldMarksman]

What exact training does one have to think that he or she is going to be so well trained and ingrained that muscle memory is going to be able to overcome the threat without being able to identify what gun he or she is shooting?

Did Post #53 answer your question?

What situation are you preparing for.

Rob Pincus describes it as a dynamic critical incident. Read the book. Take the course.

If I am taken by surprise by competent and determined attackers I don't kid myself about the likely outcome

Do you expect to face an incompetent attacker who is not determined, who does not employ the element of surprise? If so, you are not being realistic.

Pragmatically I am not willing to walk around and respond to any surprise in that violent of a fashion.

What do you mean by that?

By the time I recognize such a threat a competent attack would have rendered my unable to respond

. That's something for you to work on.

If I held myself constantly in the ready to respond violently someone would surprise me and get the wrong response.

It would also wear you out, physically and mentally.

Some of you are advocating that kind of readiness with a firearm.

Not at all. The point is, if you do have to use it, the time afforded you will be very short indeed.

 

[Lohman446]

That's something for you to work on.

Hinckley managed to shoot Reagan. There have been multiple incursions that have reached or breached the White House.

How ready can you hold yourself? How prepared to deal with that surprise can you be? I think you are aiming for an impossible goal if that goal is to be able to defeat multiple competent and determined opponents who have the advantage of surprise.

My personal hope, if I ever have to be in such a situation, is my aggressors are not competent or not fully determined and as such give me the time needed to respond. Preferably they are neither competent or determined and everyone gets to walk away alive.

 

[OldMarksman]

How ready can you hold yourself?

Well, I do not walk around in Condition Orange or anything like that, but I stay off the cell phone and avoid texting, and I refrain from sitting in an unlocked car in a parking lot. And I keep my eyes open and notice what is going on around me. If something does not look right, I go elsewhere.

I think you are aiming for an impossible goal if that goal is to be able to defeat multiple competent and determined opponents who have the advantage of surprise.

Yet that might well be the only way to stay alive.

Let's look at the elements:

• Multiple--what data we have, and they have been discussed here at length over the years, tell us that, in the unlikely event of a violent criminal attack, the participation of two or more attackers is at least as likely as that of only one, if not more so;
• Competent--it they have been imprisoned for violent offenses, they have attended the best school possible for learning how to select, surprise, attack, disarm, overpower, and injure their victims;
• Determined--they aren't out there to have fun;
• Surprise--that's a no brainer.

My personal hope, if I ever have to be in such a situation, is my aggressors are not competent or not fully determined and as such give me the time needed to respond.

Do not take this personally, but no one in his right mind would place much in the way of reliance on such a naive hope.

 

[Lohman446]

Well, I do not walk around in Condition Orange or anything like that, but I stay off the cell phone and avoid texting, and I refrain from sitting in an unlocked car in a parking lot. And I keep my eyes open and notice what is going on around me. If something does not look right, I go elsewhere.

But we have already discussed that an ambush, by definition, requires surprise. Those are things that one does naturally to simply avoid walking into a bad situation and having a firearm should not impact how one does it (let alone if one has a carry rotation).

 

[OldMarksman]

But we have already discussed that an ambush, by definition, requires surprise.

Yep!

Those are things that one does naturally to simply avoid walking into a bad situation and having a firearm should not impact how one does it (let alone if one has a carry rotation).

They are things that people can do--albeit perhaps not "naturally"--to reduce the likelihood of an ambush. They cannot always prevent a surprise violent criminal attack.

The use of a firearm is a last resort.

The discussion of the carry rotation has to do with improving the chance of success should the firearm ultimately have to be used in a defensive encounter.

 

[Lohman446]

The discussion of the carry rotation has to do with improving the chance of success should the firearm ultimately have to be used in a defensive encounter.

Right and my argument is, should the defensive position be so grave that those mili-seconds matter and the individual loses enough thought process that he or she must depend on muscle memory, it is unlikely the difference is going to matter.