Carry Gun Paradigm Shift

For Whom The Bell Tolls, indeed

Thanks for posting that.

I stopped it and tried to watch it frame by frame, especially his left hand.
 
One of my firearm mentors convinced me that shot placement trumps caliber. (And I've been a .45 ACP guy.)
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So if you have a gun in .45acp that you shoot better than a gun in 9mm, you should carry the .45.

Would that be true with a 7 shot .45 as opposed to a 13 shot 9mm?

What if your second shot from the 9mm tended to be more accurate and quicker than the second shot from the .45? Does shot placement for the first shot trump shot placement from the second?

While I agree that shot placement is the most important thing, it does not follow that a 9mm is superior to a .45acp.
Accuracy is made up of different elements. imho how a gun fits is a more important consideration than caliber.
 
Yep, shot placement probably trumps caliber, between 9mm, 40SW, 45 ACP. I shoot paper every weekend and practice drawing my XDS/Sig P220 as often as there is crap on TV (pretty often). If attacked by paper at 7-10 yards, all is good. IMHO, unless you train in a threatening situation, the skill you hone at the range will diminish - due to the adrenaline rusk, varied surroundings, etc. Yes, a 9mm would give you more rounds to try and hit the aggressor, and in many cases it will be more than enough to stop an aggressor, but I opted for 45ACP because I wanted a small CCW that i will actually carry - and IMHO, 9 rounds of 9mm is not much better than 7 rounds of 45ACP. I carry the XDS or the P220 daily and never do I fell under armed.
 
Great thread with lots of good comments to absorb (most for the better).

That said, I like to use the hypothetical of 'what if' I were unarmed and with someone who was carrying (depending on them for my life)--would I prefer that the individual be carrying that Hi-Cap SAR K2 .45ACP (love that gun) of which they occasionally shoot due to high ammo costs (I know lots of guys that have really cut down on practice due to high ammo costs/availability) or a Beretta 21A in .22lr (forget .25acp as it's ridiculously expensive) which they shoot lights out with their eyes closed precisely because they consistently practice with cheap/affordable ammo...? I would choose the latter every-time but YMMV.
 
simple

and I can shoot it

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IMHO, concealability trumps caliber and most other considerations.
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I know this is a somewhat old post I'm replying to, but I think this could be dangerous thinking. This is what gets people to think .22 WMR is a good SD round. Why? Because the gun is easy to conceal!

I live near Tucson, AZ. I wear T-Shirt and Shorts 9-10 months of the year (I'm in jeans and jacket mode at the moment). I have absolutely no problem concealing and carrying a Glock 19 and a spare mag comfortably. I understand, when we're talking 9mm, .40, .45, they're all almost equally bad stoppers. But I won't compromise below 9mm. It just took me 3 or 4 holsters before I found one that did what I needed it to. Too many people think that they can't conceal a big gun in T-Shirt and Shorts. I've concealed a Glock 21 in T-Shirt and Shorts. That's a big gun. Very few would ever call it summer concealable. I did it just to prove I could.

EDIT: Read the rest of the thread, and wanted to comment on this.

That said, I like to use the hypothetical of 'what if' I were unarmed and with someone who was carrying (depending on them for my life)--would I prefer that the individual be carrying that Hi-Cap SAR K2 .45ACP (love that gun) of which they occasionally shoot due to high ammo costs (I know lots of guys that have really cut down on practice due to high ammo costs/availability) or a Beretta 21A in .22lr (forget .25acp as it's ridiculously expensive) which they shoot lights out with their eyes closed precisely because they consistently practice with cheap/affordable ammo...? I would choose the latter every-time but YMMV.
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I'd choose the .45 each and every time. His skills with the Beretta will transfer to the .45. Maybe he's not as accurate, but in a life or death situation, being able to shoot lights out with their eyes closed (I assume on a square range, no pressure) will have little transfer-ability to a situation where people are moving around, adrenaline is pumping, etc. In other words, your friend will probably be almost equally bad at hitting his target in this situation with either gun. I'll take the round that makes the bigger hole.

Now, if it was a choice between nothing or the .22, I'd take the .22. But, repeat after me, ".22 LR is not a good defense round choice!"

Hollowpoints that don't fail as designed, become wadcutters, so why not skip the failure, and just use WC's or SWC's?
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In other words:

"Sometimes hollowpoints fail, so lets just load with an inferior round to match how the failed rounds act!"

The logic doesn't work here.
 
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First, I'm glad that (for the most part) most posters have refrained from the common caliber war "mine is better than yours" BS that threads like these often devolve into. Personally, I think all the major auto calibers (9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, and .45ACP) are just fine, and each have advantages and disadvantages v. the others. Which you choose is a matter of preference and which advantages you value over the others.

As for the OP's original idea of having a "carry gun paradigm shift", that is a valid thing to do, probably preferable to those who pick something and then don't think about it again. We should always be re-evaluating our choices as new information comes available or as our situations change. Sometimes, the re-evaluation may confirm our original choices, other times we may make a change.

While I don't live in a shall issue state and CCW's are nearly impossible for the average person here, I do have an out of state CCW and carry when in one of the surrounding states (which is fairly often). I have been interested in and focused on CCW for about a decade. In that time, I have gone back and forth between autos and revolvers several times. I started with DAO autos, switched to 1911s, and went back to DAO (or DA first trigger pull) and no manual safety on my CCW autos. I have carried .32ACP, .380ACP, 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP (and still have active carry guns in .380 for when nothing bigger than my LCP will do, in 9mm, in .40 and in .45). Not long ago my primary CCWs when out of state were a Taurus 85CH (IWB) often paired with a S&W 442 (pocket) or a S&W 1911SC. Right now, my most common carry is a SIG 290RS, and I bought a .45ACP P250C to sometimes take its place (after I get sufficient rounds through it).

I strongly believe that periodically re-evaluating and occasionally changing your choices indicates that you are an intelligent and thinking person.
 
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Too many folks get caught up in the He said/She said debate when it comes to their own EDC. Funny, how every gun rag writer and internet poster is an expert on what other folks should use. When it comes to the choice of an EDC and the ammo loaded in it, one needs to choose what they are comfortable with, proficient with and have the most confidence in. This needs to come from not only what one reads and hears, but from practice and personal testing/experience. If it ever comes down to having to use it in a real life scenario and it fails, there is really only one person to blame.
 
Gaerek said:
I know this is a somewhat old post I'm replying to, but I think this could be dangerous thinking. This is what gets people to think .22 WMR is a good SD round. Why? Because the gun is easy to conceal!



I live near Tucson, AZ. I wear T-Shirt and Shorts 9-10 months of the year (I'm in jeans and jacket mode at the moment). I have absolutely no problem concealing and carrying a Glock 19 and a spare mag comfortably. I understand, when we're talking 9mm, .40, .45, they're all almost equally bad stoppers. But I won't compromise below 9mm. It just took me 3 or 4 holsters before I found one that did what I needed it to. Too many people think that they can't conceal a big gun in T-Shirt and Shorts. I've concealed a Glock 21 in T-Shirt and Shorts. That's a big gun. Very few would ever call it summer concealable. I did it just to prove I could.



EDIT: Read the rest of the thread, and wanted to comment on this.







I'd choose the .45 each and every time. His skills with the Beretta will transfer to the .45. Maybe he's not as accurate, but in a life or death situation, being able to shoot lights out with their eyes closed (I assume on a square range, no pressure) will have little transfer-ability to a situation where people are moving around, adrenaline is pumping, etc. In other words, your friend will probably be almost equally bad at hitting his target in this situation with either gun. I'll take the round that makes the bigger hole.



Now, if it was a choice between nothing or the .22, I'd take the .22. But, repeat after me, ".22 LR is not a good defense round choice!"







In other words:



"Sometimes hollowpoints fail, so lets just load with an inferior round to match how the failed rounds act!"



The logic doesn't work here.
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The meat of your post could have been read as:

"Sometimes people miss, so let's just use a harder recoiling round to help miss on shots we might have missed!"

That logic doesn't work here. ;)

Within service calibers, give yourself the best possible chance to hit (on all shots, with speed). If a shooter's speed and accuracy are similar with 9 and another caliber, stepping up may make sense. Otherwise, stick with 9mm. Trading hits for misses is a bad exchange.

Again, I am NOT against other calibers. My position is: train, practice, make choices appropriate to skill level.
 
Big gun Small gun.
Big frame Small frame
Big bullet small bullet
Big recoil Small recoil
Big mag Small mag
Big training Small training


There are so many perimeters that when combined form the totality of an individuals self defense capacity. It is so very easy to focus on just a few aspects of that picture while ignoring others that are still part of the picture.

This one comment "A solid hit with a bigger caliber is better than a solid hit with a smaller caliber." is no less true then the others. If this was the only part of the picture we would all be carrying Desert Eagles in .50 Cal but I don't see much of that going on.

Every individual is exactly that, an individual, with individual needs and individual restrictions.

The only things that matter are that you can and do carry it and can use it proficiently, that it will function when you need it and it has to have enough ammo to see you through a scrape. You have to be comfortable with it and trust it. If these requirements are met then odds are it will get the job done for you in any situation that a carry handgun is sufficient for.
 
"Sometimes people miss, so let's just use a harder recoiling round to help miss on shots we might have missed!"

That logic doesn't work here.
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I'm wondering if you even read my post. :p

I carry a 9mm. I mentioned carrying a .45 (the Glock 21) just to show that it could be done, but I rarely carry it, unless it's range day, and it's the gun I decided to bring with me.

Below 9mm, you're really starting to compromise. I'd even be willing to put .380 in the same boat as a 9, .40, .45 (as far as being good enough stoppers)...but then again, you're usually back in the heavy recoil boat with most .380's out there.

If you're commenting on the .22LR vs .45 argument...honestly, I don't even know why this is an argument. A .22 will not stop someone, unless you just happen to hit the spinal column or brain stem. I've been shot with a .22 (not by myself, by some idiot next to me), and I didn't even realize it until I blood dripping off my leg onto the floor. I felt a sting, but I thought it was splatter or a ricochet or something. No adrenaline, just minding my own business, loading up magazines in my stall. Now imagine an attacker hopped up on adrenaline/meth/PCP/whatever who's attacking you. You think he's going to feel that pea shooter? You're telling me you're confident enough in your own abilities to get a stopping shot with that .22 everytime you pull the trigger?

For me, I'll favor the gun I have to shoot slower, but I know will be felt, even if I don't happen to get a spinal column hit.

Yes...accuracy trumps everything. But assuming your accuracy is the same in a fight regardless of caliber (which almost assuredly will be...) I'll trust my life with the round that makes the bigger hole.

Honestly, I can't believe we're having an actual discussion comparing a well known and established stopper like a .45, with a .22. It would be comical, if it weren't actually happening.
 
doc540,

Shot placement is the most important criterion of all: shot placement of the guy trying to kill you. It is far more important than your shot placement.

There is a tactical advantage of a large capacity magazine. Not having to reload is an extremely valuable tactical advantage. With that fact established, I'd rather have 8 .45 ACP rounds than any amount of 9MM rounds. But that's merely my opinion. Others will see it differently.
 
The gun you have on you is better than the gun you left at home. I used to carry my XD9 sub on occasion - whenever my wardrobe would allow it. I didn't carry as often as I should, and there were times I wish I had something on me - just in case.

So, I bought a pocket pistol. I got the Sig P238 (.380) and a pocket holster - and now I carry every single day. I'll forget to take it out of my pocket because it's so hard to notice. Cell phone in one pocket, Sig in the other, and I'm good to go for the day.

I don't worry so much that it's only a .380. I have put hundreds of rounds down range with this thing, a few snakes killed, and a lot of trees shot. I'm 100% confident in the weapon, in myself shooting the thing, and now I always have something on me.

Sure I love my 9mm, I love my 1911 that I NEVER carry because it's so big. But when it comes down to it your best bet is the .380 you have on you - or wishing you had carried your 9mm that day.
 
Deleted a wall of text.

Short version:

Ask yourself what you want to be holding if you have to shoot to live. Determine how close you can get to THAT, on a daily basis.

When a person STARTS their search looking at the smallest possible options, they are typically doing it wrong.
 
cryption,

If the best handgun is the one you left at home, then you might be forced to save your life with an inferior one.
 
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