Can you shoot a S&W 38 in a 38 Special gun?
- Thread starter markofkane
- Start date
Prices on any reloading equiptment on E-bay are high right now.
Yes,I've seen dies listed for $25,but with 5 more days bidding time. Price goes up dramatically in the final hours of bidding.
I did find,and have received,a nice,pristine set of old Pacific 38 S+W dies that were somewhere in the $50 range. Sets of Lee's MIGHT be found at MSRP+
But most auctions are running the prices up.Lee dies might bring $80-$90 used,
Lee;s cheapest little bench mount C-press and the hand presses are approaching $100.
The Lyman 311284 mold,a 30 cal 214 gr that was designed to work well for the Krag came up. Actually,one two cav and a couple of single cav.
No one has new ones in stock,that I found. I do have a Krag "Sporter carbine?"
I've been wanting cast bullets for. It seems a good idea to have a cast bullet center fire rifle I can burn 4895,etc in. I have fine stash of wheel weights.
So I groaned and took the one-time $100 pain to win bid. Seems at least twice what I'd ordinarily pay. But the mold and the Krag together make an "outfit" Its done. Should arive soon.
Yes,I've seen dies listed for $25,but with 5 more days bidding time. Price goes up dramatically in the final hours of bidding.
I did find,and have received,a nice,pristine set of old Pacific 38 S+W dies that were somewhere in the $50 range. Sets of Lee's MIGHT be found at MSRP+
But most auctions are running the prices up.Lee dies might bring $80-$90 used,
Lee;s cheapest little bench mount C-press and the hand presses are approaching $100.
The Lyman 311284 mold,a 30 cal 214 gr that was designed to work well for the Krag came up. Actually,one two cav and a couple of single cav.
No one has new ones in stock,that I found. I do have a Krag "Sporter carbine?"
I've been wanting cast bullets for. It seems a good idea to have a cast bullet center fire rifle I can burn 4895,etc in. I have fine stash of wheel weights.
So I groaned and took the one-time $100 pain to win bid. Seems at least twice what I'd ordinarily pay. But the mold and the Krag together make an "outfit" Its done. Should arive soon.
One stupid and ignorant question. If the bullet is slightly larger and less pressure, might the bullet get stuck in the barrel?
Now that could be very dangerous.
Without being judgemental...
The reloading data I have looked at is generally in the 650 fps range.
Now,I'm sure that is conservative for the age and varied designs of these guns. Some are break top old S+W's. Its wise to be gentle.
That said,from my Cowboy Action Shooting phase,the gamers downloaded to the minimum that would go "bang" . I leaned toward replicating a full black powder level "Doing Business" load,in smokeless. I'm not a gamer.
Its the gamers who are most likely to be beating on a squib rod trying to drive out a stuck bullet.
However, the general discusion rule of thumb was about 650 fps to be sure the bullet cleared the barrel. Squibbing the bore plugged was a low end limitation.
Alan makes a good point. An OS bullet combined with cylinder gap leakage might lead to a bulged barrel.
I'm certainly not going to pursue hot rodding my friends old Colt DA solid frame Colt Police Positive.
I'm not going to consider the 1100 to 1200 fps Buffalo Bore ammo.
I do wonder if a specimen of the solid frame Colt from around the 1920's? (speculated) in good shape would be up to loads in the 800 fps range from folks expert in these guns)
If so,I feel better about the reliabilty of a little more powder.
Besides,I think its her only gun. If she DID need to use it,800 fps would give a touch more penetration
But I DO NOT want to beat the gun up.
The reloading data I have looked at is generally in the 650 fps range.
Now,I'm sure that is conservative for the age and varied designs of these guns. Some are break top old S+W's. Its wise to be gentle.
That said,from my Cowboy Action Shooting phase,the gamers downloaded to the minimum that would go "bang" . I leaned toward replicating a full black powder level "Doing Business" load,in smokeless. I'm not a gamer.
Its the gamers who are most likely to be beating on a squib rod trying to drive out a stuck bullet.
However, the general discusion rule of thumb was about 650 fps to be sure the bullet cleared the barrel. Squibbing the bore plugged was a low end limitation.
Alan makes a good point. An OS bullet combined with cylinder gap leakage might lead to a bulged barrel.
I'm certainly not going to pursue hot rodding my friends old Colt DA solid frame Colt Police Positive.
I'm not going to consider the 1100 to 1200 fps Buffalo Bore ammo.
I do wonder if a specimen of the solid frame Colt from around the 1920's? (speculated) in good shape would be up to loads in the 800 fps range from folks expert in these guns)
If so,I feel better about the reliabilty of a little more powder.
Besides,I think its her only gun. If she DID need to use it,800 fps would give a touch more penetration
But I DO NOT want to beat the gun up.
Last edited:
Mike Irwin
Staff
"One stupid and ignorant question. If the bullet is slightly larger and less pressure, might the bullet get stuck in the barrel?
Now that could be very dangerous. "
Not a stupid question at all.
The difference in bullet diameter isn't that much -- .003 to .005 (.357 nominal for .38 Special, .361 nominal for .38 S&W)...
But .38 S&W bullets tend to be, in my experience, quite soft so MAY be more prone to leading.
As for getting stuck in the bore, I wouldn't be concerned about that at all.
Maximum pressure for the .38 S&W is about 14,500 psi, which isn't that much different from the max pressure for .38 Special, 17,500 psi.
But, those are max pressures -- working pressures can be some thousands of PSI less.
Additionally, there are many .38 Special loads that develop pressure bands very similar to those of the .38 S&W.
But, to stick a bullet in the bore of a .38 Special you're generally looking at the equivalent of a squib load -- probably in the 5,000 psi range or less.
So, I'd say that there's no real worry about sticking a bullet if using any decent factory load.
Now that could be very dangerous. "
Not a stupid question at all.
The difference in bullet diameter isn't that much -- .003 to .005 (.357 nominal for .38 Special, .361 nominal for .38 S&W)...
But .38 S&W bullets tend to be, in my experience, quite soft so MAY be more prone to leading.
As for getting stuck in the bore, I wouldn't be concerned about that at all.
Maximum pressure for the .38 S&W is about 14,500 psi, which isn't that much different from the max pressure for .38 Special, 17,500 psi.
But, those are max pressures -- working pressures can be some thousands of PSI less.
Additionally, there are many .38 Special loads that develop pressure bands very similar to those of the .38 S&W.
But, to stick a bullet in the bore of a .38 Special you're generally looking at the equivalent of a squib load -- probably in the 5,000 psi range or less.
So, I'd say that there's no real worry about sticking a bullet if using any decent factory load.
They were thinking " we can make a quick buck by selling all these guns as 38 specials" !
38 S&W wasn't that popular . Few reloaded so the swollen cases didn't bother them and at the low 38 special pressure , a crack in the brass case now and then wasn't a problem .
When I started rloading in the 1960's I knew only one person who reloaded and he was a police officer .
Gary
Uncle Nick covered this pretty well, the bullets aren't that much bigger, they're generally lead (and soft, not hard alloys) and the pressure difference isn't an issue because while less then the Special, its still well above the danger point of risking a squib.
Actually, I think they were thinking, "lets convert these guns to shoot ammo that people can actually get, so maybe someone will buy them off us, and we don't get stuck with them forever...."
remember that the reaming done to the .38S&W cylinders didn't touch the .38 S&W chamber, it was done to open up the cylinder in front of the .38 S&W to accept the longer .38Special case.
Not exactly in line with the OP's thread. I had the forcing cone split on an old S&W .38 special pre-model 10. I found a new in the raw 38 S&W CTG barrel for dirt cheap. Replaced my bad barrel with it. Since the barrel is only very slightly larger, the gun still shoots very accurately.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"I believe that 38 colt will shoot in a 38 special revolver. The 38 s&w will not. I found that out decades ago."
As originally developed and loaded, neither the .38 Colt (aka .38 Short Colt) or the .38 Long Colt should chamber in a .38 Special revolver.
Both rounds were originally offered with heel-style bullets (like a modern .22) very close to true .38 caliber.
Sometime in the 1890s or so heeled bullets began to fall out of style and both the Short and Long were reworked to take the modern .357-dia. ".38" bullet. So that the rounds would work in older guns with the larger bores the bullets had a large hollow base. On firing, powder gas would blow the bullet skirt into the rifling, giving at least passable accuracy.
.38 Short/Long rounds using the modern hollow base bullet will chamber and fire in a .38 Special/.357 Magnum revolver.
The .38 Special, developed by S&W, used the .38 Long Colt's case dimensions, but lengthened a bit to allow for 3.5 more grains of black powder, and with a slightly heavier bullet.
As originally developed and loaded, neither the .38 Colt (aka .38 Short Colt) or the .38 Long Colt should chamber in a .38 Special revolver.
Both rounds were originally offered with heel-style bullets (like a modern .22) very close to true .38 caliber.
Sometime in the 1890s or so heeled bullets began to fall out of style and both the Short and Long were reworked to take the modern .357-dia. ".38" bullet. So that the rounds would work in older guns with the larger bores the bullets had a large hollow base. On firing, powder gas would blow the bullet skirt into the rifling, giving at least passable accuracy.
.38 Short/Long rounds using the modern hollow base bullet will chamber and fire in a .38 Special/.357 Magnum revolver.
The .38 Special, developed by S&W, used the .38 Long Colt's case dimensions, but lengthened a bit to allow for 3.5 more grains of black powder, and with a slightly heavier bullet.
Jim Watson
New member
First type 1899 S&W M&Ps are marked .38 Government and S&W Special.
I don't know how the .38 Gov't squares with commercial .38 LC or just when the change was made, but by the time the Special was common on the market, the revolvers were cataloged as suitable for .38 SC, .38 LC, .38 S&W Special, .38 Colt Special, etc over several different loadings.
I don't know how the .38 Gov't squares with commercial .38 LC or just when the change was made, but by the time the Special was common on the market, the revolvers were cataloged as suitable for .38 SC, .38 LC, .38 S&W Special, .38 Colt Special, etc over several different loadings.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"First type 1899 S&W M&Ps are marked .38 Government and S&W Special."
From what I can tell, the earliest markings on the Model of 1899 were ".38 Mil.", designating them to be chambered for .38 Long Colt.
As I noted, ammunition manufacturers began dropping the heeled bullet style in the 1890s.
There's one fly in that ointment, though... the US Army and the US Navy both used the .38 Long Colt, but apparently they used different loadings... the Navy revolvers, adopted in 1889, used the heeled-bullet design, while the Army revolver, adopted in 1892, used the modern bullet design.
Smith & Wesson's Model of 1899 used the Army-standard chambering, not the Navy's.
From what I can tell, the earliest markings on the Model of 1899 were ".38 Mil.", designating them to be chambered for .38 Long Colt.
As I noted, ammunition manufacturers began dropping the heeled bullet style in the 1890s.
There's one fly in that ointment, though... the US Army and the US Navy both used the .38 Long Colt, but apparently they used different loadings... the Navy revolvers, adopted in 1889, used the heeled-bullet design, while the Army revolver, adopted in 1892, used the modern bullet design.
Smith & Wesson's Model of 1899 used the Army-standard chambering, not the Navy's.
Jim Watson
New member
If they had changed by 1892 then we are unlikely to run into .38 LC ammo with heel bullets that won't chamber in a Special.
Something happened at Colt in 1920 but I don't know what. I just see SAA .38 LC listed as before and after 1920 as though it meant something.
Something happened at Colt in 1920 but I don't know what. I just see SAA .38 LC listed as before and after 1920 as though it meant something.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Something happened at Colt in 1920 but I don't know what. I just see SAA .38 LC listed as before and after 1920 as though it meant something."
What happened is, I think, that Colt finally changed its bore diameters to match the modern style bullet.
Colt retained the old bore diameter for a LONG time after the modern-style bullet became commonplace, relying on the hollow base bullet to make it take the rifling.
The same was true of their revolvers chambered in .41 Long Colt. Originally the .41 had a heeled bullet of .406 diameter. In the 1890s it was changed to a modern bullet roughly .3855 in diameter (making it a true .38).
Colt kept the .406 bore diameter on revolvers well into the 1900s.
What happened is, I think, that Colt finally changed its bore diameters to match the modern style bullet.
Colt retained the old bore diameter for a LONG time after the modern-style bullet became commonplace, relying on the hollow base bullet to make it take the rifling.
The same was true of their revolvers chambered in .41 Long Colt. Originally the .41 had a heeled bullet of .406 diameter. In the 1890s it was changed to a modern bullet roughly .3855 in diameter (making it a true .38).
Colt kept the .406 bore diameter on revolvers well into the 1900s.
Colt indeed had done strange things with bore diameters. My revolver in .38 s&w simply doesn't take .361" bullets. 9mm (.356") bullets work the best.
I used to have another revolver in .41 LC. Goodness. That one was hard to load. I managed to find the hollow base soft cast bullets for it. Brass was fire formed from .38 spl. The sizing die was special ordered. Surprisingly it shot pretty ok. I bought that gun from a gentleman for nothing. It was in non-firing condition. After repairing it and loaded for it, I sold it back to him for nothing. His late father carried the same revolver as a deputy sheriff in Texas.
I still have the die, bullets, and brass. Let me know if anyone interested in taking them over.
-TL
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