Can this 9mm claim be true?

[briandg]

I really hate my kindle. A half hour of work lost.

Sum it up with enough of the b.s.. fibrous, tough, or other tissues do not respond like gel, and as mile said, the physics behind the claims don't work.

It's common among big companies to send tools and ammo on field tests. Give this material to hog hunters, and have professional medical examiners perform necropsies. Rather than testing in reality as it was designed, they released with great fanfare. Why didn't they spend an hour or so tweaking their CNC machines, and hand over thousands of test rounds in .357 or other calibers for real world testing of similar and identical loads on living tissue

What was that? A hit on a 150 pound hog isn't the same as a hit on a200 pound man?

SHOW ME SCIENCE, INDISPUTABLE FACT, ABSOLUTE EVIDENCE THAT THIS PRODUCT LIVES UP TO THE CLAIMS. prove to me that it without question disables living critters more rapidly and effectively than a typical fbi approved hp round.

I believe that this will work no better or worse than an ordinary fmj round of identical energy over extensive testing.

Once again, there's no reason not to buy it, but don't expect results that defy scientific predictions.

BTW, the statement that they are nearly as effective as a rifle round made me spit my coffee.

 

[briandg]

Limnophile, I'm not certain yet, put I think that I like the way you think. Critical thinking is a vanishing skill.

 

[Metalboy]

BTW, the statement that they are nearly as effective as a rifle round made me spit my coffee.
briandg is online now Report Post

One of my neighbor belongs to the Unicorn Society, He says, that He's hand-loads are by far the very best on this Earth. When He fires, the bullet flies in a perfectly strait line out to 300 yards, but after that it slowly rises.

(I think He belongs to some other place too.)

 

[briandg]

This time I spit my beer. Sometimes I love the internet. Once in a while, I run into something that makes it all worthwhile.

 

[Limnophile]

briandg,

Thanks for the feedback.

I, too, use a Kindle Fire. One has to be careful when composing a lengthy reply, but I don't lose too much work these days.

In my last reply to UD I tried to find the IWBA ammo spec and post a link, but it was at firearmstactical.com, and that site no longer exists. The recommendations are enlightening.

In lieu of that spec, Urey Patrick's 1989 report on the Quantico workshop on handgun wounding factors is perhaps the best source to understand the FBI's perspective on scientific handgun ammo selection:

gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf.

Everyone who owns a handgun for self defense should be familiar with this report. It's a quarter century old, and is responsible for guiding modern JHP designs, which are now so effective that a year and a half ago the FBI pronounced the venerable 9 Luger to be a superior service caliber than their vaunted .40 S&W:

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/.

 

[briandg]

We can design a projectile to function at any velocity,on any target, and we can to a certain extent balance the expectations. We don't have to settle for a bullet that's a compromise. It may cost $1a round, but we. Can get ammo that will perform optimally under a wide range of circumstances.
40? 9mms? Either. One can give A+ performance under the proper circumstances, and it's good that the effectiveness of the top 9mms is now being officially recognized.

A low power handgun works better than begging for mercy. A hit with a .380 is better than poking someone with a pencil. Use good, proven ammo, in any cartridge 9mm or larger, and that's enough to give a high probability of a disabling shooting.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

in the SAME exact same gel block.

I know it is quite common for amateurs to re-use gel blocks without even reprocessing them, but doesn't that invalidate the testing? Don't labs shoot them only once then either melt them down and recast or throw them out? It is hard for me to believe having multiple wound channels already in the block would not weaken its structure resulting in large channels for subsequent shots.

Those gel blocks also seem a bit small to me. Without any form holding them I would think the channel would expand more.

 

[seeker_two]

The November 2015 issue of American Rifleman has a review of a new type ammo called "Interceptor" by Polycase. The review is worth a read and the ammo shows some potential. Time, testing and experience tells on these type developments. The ammo has an association with Ruger.

The ammo is shaped like ball but has an exterior fluted design. They call it an Arx bullet. The flutes are deep and have a twist to them that seems to promote rotation. They resemble a misshapen 3 flute Philips head screw driver bit.

They are made by a process of high speed injection molding and "are comprised of a heated mixture of powered copper and epoxy/polymer resins," the article explains. The bullets are light for caliber (a 114 gr. 45acp for example) and travel fast. They are available in a variety of rounds at present with more to come.

The review says they do well in ballistic gel but broke up when hitting a class 2 vest.

So as more folks have experience with them their strengths and weaknesses come forward. They may have some applications.

Here is a link...

http://www.polycaseammo.com/home


tipoc

I'm interested in this bullet....not as much for its ballistic performance as for its manufacturing process. This might be the bullet of the future if the regs and price on lead becomes too onerous.

 

[Branko]

The way I see it when it comes to handguns, everything in the spectrum .38 ACP and .38 Special to 0.45 is likely to work, without all that much difference on average.

Unless you have some special need like having to shoot through obstacles or armour, pick what you are good with, take widely used ammo which has sufficient penetration and which you can afford to shoot, and don't fret too much or pay crazy amounts for miracle ammo. People shot each other dead just fine with 0.375 lead balls which are on the level of 0.38 ACP ball roughly, and have shot each other with 9mm ball for a good part of the 20th century. The bigger factor was always hitting the target well.

If you really want serious firepower, there are rifles and shotguns.

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

Am I correct that the FBI standard for penetration is for ballistic gelatin? While penetration in tissue is dependent on what tissues are hit, a projectile penetrating 18" of gelatin is not expected to over penetrate the human torso.

From the FBI Ballistic Test Protocol.

A handgun bullet must consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue in order to reliably penetrate vital organs within the human target regardless of the angle of impact or intervening obstacles such as arms, clothing, glass, etc. Penetration of 18 inches is even better.

 

[tipoc]

Am I correct that the FBI standard for penetration is for ballistic gelatin?

The link you provided explains clearly the test protocols. 10% ballistic gelatin is used in these tests. In only one of them is bare gelatin used. The others are as described in the link. For a bullet to "pass" the tests it must penetrate a minimum of 12" a max of 18" through the gelatin in each of the tests after penetrating the media placed in front of the gelatin.

The Ammunition Test Protocol using this gelatin is composed of eight test events. In each test event, five shots are fired. A new gelatin block and new test materials are used for each individual shot. The complete test consists of firing 40 shots. Each test event is discussed below in order. All firing in these eight tests events is done with a typical service weapon representative of those used by law enforcement. The weapon used is fully described in each test report.

The 18" figure comes from estimating a bullet which hits the torso at an angle but still penetrates enough to strike a vital organ, as in a person bent over and a strike at the shoulder heading to the abdomen or vice versa.

Keep in mind that bullets don't always take a straight course.

Take a tape measure to your body and see what 12-18" gets you from various angles. Yes in some cases the bullet will go through the body or body part. Most of us don't have 32" diameter arms or calves for example.

tipoc