Can this 9mm claim be true?
- Thread starter br1dge
- Start date
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Everyone realizes a bullet doesn't always travel through the body in a straight line, right? Bones, among other possibilities will deflect the bullet. You need at least 90* and probably more than 120* clear behind the target to be anywhere close to sure a bystander won't be hit. Good luck with that.
Shadi Khalil
New member
I have to agree with this. It's not ammo I would ever buy and I was very skeptical of the claims until I saw MAC's video. The guy in the video is (was?) a long time member of the FL and tends to be a straight shooter with his product reviews.
Just how much energy do you think a handgun bullet has after hitting a bone and passing through a bad guy? The only real threat of over penetration would be if a bullet went through an extremity or the edge of a torso without hitting a bone and that's more of a miss than it is over penetration.
Model12Win
Moderator
I'm not impressed with the .380 Lehigh extreme penetrator.
A Fiocchi Extrema 90 grain JHP, you can get nearly 14" of penetration and expansion over .45 caliber. No Phillips head needed.
A Fiocchi Extrema 90 grain JHP, you can get nearly 14" of penetration and expansion over .45 caliber. No Phillips head needed.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Was it Pancho Villa or Rodolfo Fierro who gained a reputation for lining up captives and seeing how many head shots he could get with a single round from his handgun in order to save ammunition? Pretty sure it was someone from Villa's group.
If it passes through, and FMJ rounds regularly do, I can't imagine it is safe to be standing behind it. In the 2012 NYPD shooting where 9 bystanders were shot, I believe the investigation found several were hit by fragments from pass through shots. Maybe that was just a lie to make everyone feel better about the officers' misses.
Limnophile
New member
The guy at the link is misinformed on more than one aspect of terminal ballistics testing. The IWBA's penetration recommendation in calibrated 10% ballistic gell is a minimum of 12.5 inches and a maximum of 14.0 inches for bare gel, and a minimum of 13.0 inches and a max of 16.0 in gel draped with heavy clothing (defined as four layers of heavy denim). The FBI modified this to a min of 12.0 and a max of 18.0 inches.
Any way you look at it, 21 inches of penetration is too much. This guy may have shot a dead pig, but, depending on how long the pig was dead, dead tissue may not react like live tissue. He failed to measure the breadth of the pig or to determine the depth of penetration. Regardless, the IWBA derived their recommendations from shootings of live people. Yes, 12.5 inches of penetration in gel likely won't result in 12.5 inches of penetration in a human, but the IWBA said that a round that cannot penetrate gel at least 12.5 inches is likely to produce inadequate penetration in a human to reach vital tissues.
If one is not overly concerned about overpentration, it stands to reason that an overpenetrative round will get the job done, but it does so at a greater risk to innocent bystanders.
Another misunderstanding is that the disturbed gel around the permanent wound channel is not part of the permanent wound channel. Live tissue does not react like gel, and trauma surgeons and medical examiners have repeatedly documented that the temporary wound channel does not cause reliable trauma in living tissue. Peddling an aura of disturbed gel that is simply a remnant of a larger temporary wound channel as the permanent wound channel is fraud at worst and ignorance at best.
The Federal HST rounds are among the best available. If you want deeper penetration and are willing to sacrifice expansion, virtually any FMJ will give you that at a fraction of the cost of the Xtreme Penetrator.
Any way you look at it, 21 inches of penetration is too much. This guy may have shot a dead pig, but, depending on how long the pig was dead, dead tissue may not react like live tissue. He failed to measure the breadth of the pig or to determine the depth of penetration. Regardless, the IWBA derived their recommendations from shootings of live people. Yes, 12.5 inches of penetration in gel likely won't result in 12.5 inches of penetration in a human, but the IWBA said that a round that cannot penetrate gel at least 12.5 inches is likely to produce inadequate penetration in a human to reach vital tissues.
If one is not overly concerned about overpentration, it stands to reason that an overpenetrative round will get the job done, but it does so at a greater risk to innocent bystanders.
Another misunderstanding is that the disturbed gel around the permanent wound channel is not part of the permanent wound channel. Live tissue does not react like gel, and trauma surgeons and medical examiners have repeatedly documented that the temporary wound channel does not cause reliable trauma in living tissue. Peddling an aura of disturbed gel that is simply a remnant of a larger temporary wound channel as the permanent wound channel is fraud at worst and ignorance at best.
The Federal HST rounds are among the best available. If you want deeper penetration and are willing to sacrifice expansion, virtually any FMJ will give you that at a fraction of the cost of the Xtreme Penetrator.
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
I guess you doubters didn't actually watch the video.
The MAC guy is a solid, honest broker.
He SHOWS you in the video how:
-The HST goes 13" into the gel, with a minimal wound channel, while
-The Underwood / Lehigh rounds go 21.5" into the gel, with a much more impressive, 1.75 to 2.0" permanent wound channel for about 12" of the 21.5 - in the SAME exact same gel block.
I guess you guys think he faked the video, huh? Open your minds and your eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ
The MAC guy is a solid, honest broker.
He SHOWS you in the video how:
-The HST goes 13" into the gel, with a minimal wound channel, while
-The Underwood / Lehigh rounds go 21.5" into the gel, with a much more impressive, 1.75 to 2.0" permanent wound channel for about 12" of the 21.5 - in the SAME exact same gel block.
I guess you guys think he faked the video, huh? Open your minds and your eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ
9x18_Walther
New member
Carry a quality big-name production JHP. All of this pseudo-ballistics testing combined with hype is annoying.
End of story.
Seriously, I know people say you'll never be vilified for your ammunition choice but has anyone actually been in a self-defense shooting with one of these hyped rounds? I can guarantee if you are in the wrong jurisdiction, its going to be a central part of the trial.
Oscar Pistorius (regardless of his innocence or not) was grilled for using LE grade Black Talons/Ranger T.
End of story.
Seriously, I know people say you'll never be vilified for your ammunition choice but has anyone actually been in a self-defense shooting with one of these hyped rounds? I can guarantee if you are in the wrong jurisdiction, its going to be a central part of the trial.
Oscar Pistorius (regardless of his innocence or not) was grilled for using LE grade Black Talons/Ranger T.
In the real world anything can be blamed . " the fire was started because it was the wrong phase of the moon ! " Happened to my father , a real case , though the jury saw through the nonsense ! As they say , "you can indict a ham sandwich " .
If you fire, the bullet must penetrate into and damage a critical organ. That's what it comes down to !
If you fire, the bullet must penetrate into and damage a critical organ. That's what it comes down to !
The 4 basic rules remind us of this...
"Rule 4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it."
The second clause of the sentence is there for a very good reason.
It isn't just that a bullet could hit someone and go through them and hit another person, (which does happen annually the shooting incident records for the NYPD, LAPD, and many other major police departments are on line and show these as annual occurrences, rare but they happen), but that bullets that miss, occasionally hit someone else or vehicles, homes etc. Bullets routinely penetrate exterior walls of homes.
No shooter, even the very best, can guarantee that a shot at a moving target will not pass through a limb, pass through fatty tissue, pass through a non-vital part of the body, glance off bone, etc.
These are good reasons for using jhp bullets in defensive situations. They lesson the probability of damage to what is beyond the target.
On the Underwood Ammo: I watched the vid. Not all of it though.
[I]The concept is not new, neither are the results[/I].
This is a light weight bullet of 90 gr. +P+ moving at over 1500 fps with 21" of penetration with a bullet that remains intact, meaning the bullet does not mushroom. Up against that we have a Fed. HST jhp 124 gr. bullet moving at 1150 fps or there abouts that does expand.
No one should be surprised that the ball ammo (in this case shaped like a philips head screw driver) out penetrates the jhp. The latter is designed to expand, create a bigger hole and limit the penetration of the bullet to a set depth. Ball ammo always out penetrates jhp ammo.
Light weight fast ball ammo (or philips head ammo) however often breaks up on impact, creating a bigger wound cavity of limited depth. It does this either because the ammo is going faster than the bullet was designed for, strikes a bone, or by intent as in the case of Glazer Safety Slugs, etc.
In the case of this Underwood ammo the intent is to not break up but to act like ball ammo. Though the philips head shape leads me to believe it could break up more easily than ball if striking a hard object. But I'm not sure of that.
A lighter than normal round like this one at, 1500 fps and 90 gr.s always loses it's energy fast on impact. The lighter weight means it has less momentum to assist in penetration and so more energy is expended in penetration, sometimes explosively so. So it is no surprise that the first 12" or so reveal a large temporary wound cavity, possibly larger than the 124 gr. HST round.
However, also notice that the permanent wound cavity of the expanding HST round is larger.
The temporary wound channel of both bullets is significant and is damage that can't be discounted and is some times very significant. However, because the variables of the temporary wound channel are so, well variable, they can't be counted on to stop anyone or as a measure of actual damage. The permanent wound cavity can be. It is larger for the HST.
Let's look at something else here:
At about 3:30 into the vid Sturm fires the 90 gr. +P+ at 1500 into the block. At about 5:50 he fires the 124 gr. HST at 1150 into the block. Watch the movement of the blocks in slow motion.
Note the jump and wiggle. Which round hits harder? Go back and forth to convince yourself. Both the greater momentum of the HST, the bullet shape and it's expansion impart a stronger blow and the 10% gel reacts and shows that. It's only a 35 gr. difference but that and the expansion of the bullet make a difference. The expansion of the bullet slows it down and means that the time the bullet is in the body and doing damage is longer. This is why the block of gel jumps higher and shakes more. It's why the jhp is more deadly and "hits harder". It has more stopping power.
Look at the vid again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ
When Sturm shoots the 90 +P+ into the dead hog he aims at the shoulder blade and in line to penetrate both. But the 90 gr. pill only penetrates one shoulder blade and Sturm cannot find an exit hole. Sturm says that this is a good thing.
But is it? Not so much i think either for hunting or self defense. You want a bullet that will break bone if you can get it.
tipoc
"Rule 4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it."
The second clause of the sentence is there for a very good reason.
It isn't just that a bullet could hit someone and go through them and hit another person, (which does happen annually the shooting incident records for the NYPD, LAPD, and many other major police departments are on line and show these as annual occurrences, rare but they happen), but that bullets that miss, occasionally hit someone else or vehicles, homes etc. Bullets routinely penetrate exterior walls of homes.
No shooter, even the very best, can guarantee that a shot at a moving target will not pass through a limb, pass through fatty tissue, pass through a non-vital part of the body, glance off bone, etc.
These are good reasons for using jhp bullets in defensive situations. They lesson the probability of damage to what is beyond the target.
On the Underwood Ammo: I watched the vid. Not all of it though.
[I]The concept is not new, neither are the results[/I].
This is a light weight bullet of 90 gr. +P+ moving at over 1500 fps with 21" of penetration with a bullet that remains intact, meaning the bullet does not mushroom. Up against that we have a Fed. HST jhp 124 gr. bullet moving at 1150 fps or there abouts that does expand.
No one should be surprised that the ball ammo (in this case shaped like a philips head screw driver) out penetrates the jhp. The latter is designed to expand, create a bigger hole and limit the penetration of the bullet to a set depth. Ball ammo always out penetrates jhp ammo.
Light weight fast ball ammo (or philips head ammo) however often breaks up on impact, creating a bigger wound cavity of limited depth. It does this either because the ammo is going faster than the bullet was designed for, strikes a bone, or by intent as in the case of Glazer Safety Slugs, etc.
In the case of this Underwood ammo the intent is to not break up but to act like ball ammo. Though the philips head shape leads me to believe it could break up more easily than ball if striking a hard object. But I'm not sure of that.
A lighter than normal round like this one at, 1500 fps and 90 gr.s always loses it's energy fast on impact. The lighter weight means it has less momentum to assist in penetration and so more energy is expended in penetration, sometimes explosively so. So it is no surprise that the first 12" or so reveal a large temporary wound cavity, possibly larger than the 124 gr. HST round.
However, also notice that the permanent wound cavity of the expanding HST round is larger.
The temporary wound channel of both bullets is significant and is damage that can't be discounted and is some times very significant. However, because the variables of the temporary wound channel are so, well variable, they can't be counted on to stop anyone or as a measure of actual damage. The permanent wound cavity can be. It is larger for the HST.
Let's look at something else here:
At about 3:30 into the vid Sturm fires the 90 gr. +P+ at 1500 into the block. At about 5:50 he fires the 124 gr. HST at 1150 into the block. Watch the movement of the blocks in slow motion.
Note the jump and wiggle. Which round hits harder? Go back and forth to convince yourself. Both the greater momentum of the HST, the bullet shape and it's expansion impart a stronger blow and the 10% gel reacts and shows that. It's only a 35 gr. difference but that and the expansion of the bullet make a difference. The expansion of the bullet slows it down and means that the time the bullet is in the body and doing damage is longer. This is why the block of gel jumps higher and shakes more. It's why the jhp is more deadly and "hits harder". It has more stopping power.
Look at the vid again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ
When Sturm shoots the 90 +P+ into the dead hog he aims at the shoulder blade and in line to penetrate both. But the 90 gr. pill only penetrates one shoulder blade and Sturm cannot find an exit hole. Sturm says that this is a good thing.
But is it? Not so much i think either for hunting or self defense. You want a bullet that will break bone if you can get it.
tipoc
Limnophile
New member
To the contrary, I did watch the video, which is why I know the MAC guy is a fraud or ignoramus on the subject, for the reasons I specified. His video is pseudoscientific garbage. Believe it at the risk to your wallet, yourself, your loved ones, and any innocent bystanders.
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
What does his being or not being an "ignoramus" have to do with anything? Utterly irrelevant. You can turn the sound off - even if he never would have said a word, the video speaks for itself.
What would make you think that MORE penetration, coupled with MORE permanent wound cavity is somehow inferior to LESS penetration, coupled with LESS permanent wound cavity? (which was repeated over and over again consistently in the video)
Or else, you must think the video is doctored eh? Pick one. You can't have it both ways.
Who cares? The non-expanding bullet created a larger permanent wound cavity than the fully-expanded HST round - which is better: more permanent wound cavity or less permanent wound cavity?
Your only argument seems to be that it over-penetrates. Granted, it DOES do that. And that should be taken into account for any particular person's "mission" so to speak. But if you want/need better penetration, AND more wounding, it's the way to go, seems to me. Again, unless you think the video is a fraud, which I can tell you it's not....been watching the MAC man for years. As I say, he's an honest broker - his intelligence or knowledge level has zero to do with the test results plainly before our eyes there.
I mean, there's no question that gimmicky nonsense rounds are constantly peddled. But the proof is in the pudding - this one is the real deal - unless you think that expansion with less wound cavity beats no expansion with more wound cavity.
Sure, the tests should be repeated to verify. But it's pretty plain to see what happened there, over and over
But Oscar Pistorius cold blooded murdered her. In a good shoot, it won't matter. You didn't watch the video either. You can't lump them all together while ignoring evidence which is NOT "pseudo-scientific" as claimed. It's clear and convincing evidence, seems to me, at least as this point in time. Refute the actual test results specifically - don't just throw out generalizations that "gimmicks are gimmicks, mmm-kay?".
What would make you think that MORE penetration, coupled with MORE permanent wound cavity is somehow inferior to LESS penetration, coupled with LESS permanent wound cavity? (which was repeated over and over again consistently in the video)
Or else, you must think the video is doctored eh? Pick one. You can't have it both ways.
Who cares? The non-expanding bullet created a larger permanent wound cavity than the fully-expanded HST round - which is better: more permanent wound cavity or less permanent wound cavity?
Your only argument seems to be that it over-penetrates. Granted, it DOES do that. And that should be taken into account for any particular person's "mission" so to speak. But if you want/need better penetration, AND more wounding, it's the way to go, seems to me. Again, unless you think the video is a fraud, which I can tell you it's not....been watching the MAC man for years. As I say, he's an honest broker - his intelligence or knowledge level has zero to do with the test results plainly before our eyes there.
I mean, there's no question that gimmicky nonsense rounds are constantly peddled. But the proof is in the pudding - this one is the real deal - unless you think that expansion with less wound cavity beats no expansion with more wound cavity.
Sure, the tests should be repeated to verify. But it's pretty plain to see what happened there, over and over
But Oscar Pistorius cold blooded murdered her. In a good shoot, it won't matter. You didn't watch the video either. You can't lump them all together while ignoring evidence which is NOT "pseudo-scientific" as claimed. It's clear and convincing evidence, seems to me, at least as this point in time. Refute the actual test results specifically - don't just throw out generalizations that "gimmicks are gimmicks, mmm-kay?".
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Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Not to beat a dead horse, but this discussion reminds of when the PSE Tac-15 crossbow came out...lots of people poo-poo'ed it as "gimmicky", "cheap looking", etc. I had done some cursory research and begged to differ. Turns out it's a nice piece of kit that has found it's place in the annals of crossbow history - extremely accurate, powerful, and well-built.
But people's gut reaction to anything different is "gimmick" - well, look at the results / evidence, not your gut instinct.
But people's gut reaction to anything different is "gimmick" - well, look at the results / evidence, not your gut instinct.
Hound Hauler
Inactive
9mm Glazer Safety Slug
Hello,
This being my first post to this forum. I am in favor of the 9 mm Glazer safety slug blue tip. Several years ago I had to use one. At virtually point blank range.
This product did what it was designed to do. There was a small entry wound and no exit wound. The aggressor was knocked back out of the vehicles window. Back against another car which was the only thing that kept him standing.
Later it was found that the heart, and both lungs were hamburger. Granted they are a little pricey. But what is your life and the life of your loved ones worth.
They are not for target practice. But are great for self defense.
Hello,
This being my first post to this forum. I am in favor of the 9 mm Glazer safety slug blue tip. Several years ago I had to use one. At virtually point blank range.
This product did what it was designed to do. There was a small entry wound and no exit wound. The aggressor was knocked back out of the vehicles window. Back against another car which was the only thing that kept him standing.
Later it was found that the heart, and both lungs were hamburger. Granted they are a little pricey. But what is your life and the life of your loved ones worth.
They are not for target practice. But are great for self defense.
Do they say how those rounds do, after traversing a windshield, car door, plywood sheet, sheetrock, multiple layers of clothing?
Massad Ayoob has a way with words. Sometimes, his stuff is even as good as "Not wrong". But if you're worrying about legal fees and tort reform in the middle of a situation that is a clear and present danger to your life, you've given your attacker a huge advantage. Causing harm to or the death of any innocent party is always lamentable. Letting that possibility fill your mind when far less innocent parties are trying to deprive you of your life can have even more dismal consequences.
I really do understand the concern about aggressors being "a small and inadequate backstop", made all the apparently smaller, when said "backstop" is launching bullets at you. It's why we train, innovate, test, assess, decide, and run through the process again many times in the coolness of reflection and detachment, in preparation for that situation in which we'll have no such luxury.
Massad Ayoob has a way with words. Sometimes, his stuff is even as good as "Not wrong". But if you're worrying about legal fees and tort reform in the middle of a situation that is a clear and present danger to your life, you've given your attacker a huge advantage. Causing harm to or the death of any innocent party is always lamentable. Letting that possibility fill your mind when far less innocent parties are trying to deprive you of your life can have even more dismal consequences.
I really do understand the concern about aggressors being "a small and inadequate backstop", made all the apparently smaller, when said "backstop" is launching bullets at you. It's why we train, innovate, test, assess, decide, and run through the process again many times in the coolness of reflection and detachment, in preparation for that situation in which we'll have no such luxury.
the lehigh XP (phillip's head) is a solid machined projectile, not going to break up. i don't think anyone here actually uses the ammo, but since most people that EDC a .380 are carrying an FMJ anyhow, why not carry one that at least gives you SOME kind of perm wound chanel larger than .355. noone has suggested that anyone needs to run out and start using this ammo for carry, just that it MIGHT have some merit and should be investigated.