Can one in good faith oppose the current scope of federal authority?

I hate to say it, but the reason we have our current system was FDR, and the depression. Desperate people do radical things, and, to save the short term, they sacrificed the future.

If no jobs were avaliable, with 25% unemployment, isn't creating a government agency, and putting people to work, and printing money to pay them a better idea then having them starve, or, have them sit on welfare, with no work?

To do this, FDR bullied the Supreme Court, and appointed his own judges.

Also, the Supreme Court has had a very selective memory as to the concept of states rights, and the second amendment...

One does start to see, in Lopez, the recognition that the limits of the commerce clause, and it's abuse, have been recognized by the courts...
 
To do this, FDR bullied the Supreme Court, and appointed his own judges.
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That's not quite how it happened, but close.

The switch in time that saved nine is kind of an interesting story.

One does start to see, in Lopez, the recognition that the limits of the commerce clause, and it's abuse, have been recognized by the courts...
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That's true, and also in the Morrison (violence against women) and Oregon (assisted suicide) cases, but the real story of our time involves the Raich and Stewart cases. Justice O'Connor said in dissent that the majority opinion has reduced Lopez to "nothing more than a drafting guide" and Congress can define the limits of their own power by including in the law "findings of fact" saying that what they want to regulate affects interstate commerce. That is exactly what they did to the Gun Free School Zones Act, adding a section declaring the relationship of guns near schools to interstate commerce. If that law is ever again challenged, Justice Thomas will vote to uphold the law if he is being consistent, since he joined in O'Connor's dissent.
 
Traditional
American
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mores say not only it is a good faith opposition, but an American duty to do so.

But now they've made it illegal to oppose them so since we're all such law abiding citizens...whats the debate about again?:D
 
It was a rather long running battle, between FDR, and the SC. They had this weird notion of limited government. FDR didn't, and, was a desperate man, in desperate times, with the people pretty much totally behind him. Pericles, at his best.

When two of the four horsemen retired, and Douglas and my favorite ex-KKK member, Justice Hugo Black were appointed by FDR, WW II sort of made it a moot point.
 
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:...For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:..
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Sound familiar? Know who wrote it?
 
It is familiar, but you cut out the part about prudence dictating that governments long established be not torn down for light or transient reasons.
 
Of course, you then have the trouble of deciding what a "light or transient reason" is; the Boston Tea Party erupted over the equivalent of what would today be considered petty change that you wouldn't mind losing in the sofa. So was the real reason for the Revolution "petty and transient", or was it about FREEDOM?
 
I think the tea party was the result of long term abuse of power by the king. Sort of like having presidents for the last 20 years that everyone despises. Congress people with no morality, ethics, or willingness to follow their oath to uphold the Constitution, and a 9% approval rating. We can't drive cars, and Nancy Pelosi is flying all over the world giving 50 billion dollars to Africa for aids relief, that will end up in some dictators bank.
 
SDC,

Jefferson set forth a list he considered neither light nor transitory, so we can work from that list.

If we have a President who dissolves the Congress, imposes taxes without any representative legislative approval, refuses to allow new elections, and who fires any judge who crosses him, declares martial law, and quarters his soldiers in the homes of people who oppose him, we would be a good ways down his list, but would not have all of it nailed.

In other words, it wasn't the amount of the tea tax. There were issues of principle involved in ANY amount of taxation without representation, and there were other important issues as well. The tea tax was a straw, and the camel's back broke. The other straw up there was important as well.
 
I think the tea party was the result of long term abuse of power by the king. Sort of like having presidents for the last 20 years that everyone despises. Congress people with no morality, ethics, or willingness to follow their oath to uphold the Constitution, and a 9% approval rating. We can't drive cars, and Nancy Pelosi is flying all over the world giving 50 billion dollars to Africa for aids relief, that will end up in some dictators bank.
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What is the 2008 equivalent of the Boston Tea Party?
 
In other words, it wasn't the amount of the tea tax. There were issues of principle involved in ANY amount of taxation without representation, and there were other important issues as well. The tea tax was a straw, and the camel's back broke. The other straw up there was important as well.
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Exactly; so with straw after straw after straw, which particular straw is going to be the modern-day equivalent? Is it the government stealing 30% of everything you make? Is it the government passing laws that allow it to eavesdrop on your private conversations? Is it the government granting itself eminent domain to seize whatever you own because they think it's worth more to them as a tool to buy votes with, than your property is worth to you? And so on and so on. There are many, many modern equivalents of the government seizing powers unto themself that they had no original authority to have, yet they still do it, and did it. There are a WHOLE LOT of people that believe that "America is still at that awkward stage where it's too late to work within the system, but it's still too early to shoot the bastards."
 
One that comes to mind is Rodney King. Beating a guy on video camera, even though it may have been misreped, was enough to burn a good portion of LA.
 
Glasnost & Peristroika<in the U.S.A.>

Glasnost & Peristroika<A New Openess and Restructuring>is to some extent going on now in the U.S.A. The U.S. <whether it admits to such change or not> is undergoing some convulsive growing pains since the end of the Cold War. I remember Gorbachev's words: 'We are about to do something very cruel to the U.S.A.; we are going to remove its enemy.' Note the 2 Gulf Wars and the War in Afghanistan since 1991. Note how the cultural malaise in the U.S.A. was snapped by 9-11 - perhaps in a way the Victorian cultural malaise was snapped in 1914 by the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand<sp>.


Tinnamen Square<in China>, the Student Riots<in the U.S. and in France>in 1968 - all sorts of flashpoint events<the Boston Tea Party>can be signal events that seem to occur instantly overnight - but took years to brew up into a flashpoint event. Some events are symbolic and spark change; some events are more than symbolic and can be the beginning of wars and revolutions. One historical event that is frequently misunderstood by Rightists and Leftists - is the 1917 Russian Revolution. Historians and Politicos - Left and Right - treat it like a sudden event/takeover - but in reality it was brewing and flashing for many decades. There was no actual 'Storming of the Winter Palace;' it was more like a stroll into an abandoned building that was already taken over after a series of revolutions/counterrevolutions and collapses.


In America, I can envision a kind of flashpoint event; it might be like Kent State, or MLK jr's Montgomery Bus Boycott. It might be like the 1963 JFK assasination - or some combination of such events. Unfortunately the events are easy to predict in comparison to their outcomes. Tinnamen Square in a sense strengthened China's Govt. rather than weakened it.The Boston Tea Party could have actually fostered the British to reform and strengthen the relationship with the colonies - but i it took another course. Whatever happens will happen - but these political tornadoes can spin Left or Right and change directions in a violent sudden snap.


What might a future flashpoint be in the U.S.A.? 1) An economic collapse of the dollar and/or a spiking of fuel costs could ignite a massive strike - and an alliance between strikers and students protesting tuition costs - could cause a govt./political party meltdown 2) A spectacular dastardly event<9-11 or some other traumatic chaotic event> could send the culture into a reactionary overcompensatory spin....leading to reckless foreign adventures or draconian domestic crackdowns. 3) A successful protest event that polarizes American Society ie. imagine a university where the students finally say 'we can't pay these costs anymore - and we are not going to do so> Imagine it blowing up into a riot ... and becoming a kind of flashpoint event....triggering simular events.


I think the Wars aren't going well; and the withdrawel will be messy - and that it reverberate through American socity. The Russians in Afghanistan never lost a a major tactical engagement in Afghanistan and they had lots of good technology ie. laser guided weapon systems...but they just couldn't hold the place indefinitly. The U.S.A. faces a very similar debacle.


The U.S. is under stress on a variety of fronts. I think people can oppose the current scope of Federal Power - but one never can be sure how things will pan out. One man's Revolution is another man's Counterrevolution. There are many flashpoints. A few on the horizon outside the U.S.A. that could radically change American society: 1) A Popular Revolution in Mexico or Brazil...that challenges the U.S.A.'s role in policing such events.<with the Cold War Over - the U.S.A. can no longer accuse 'Russia' of being behind such events...and U.S. intervention then becomes one of stark ugly 'colonialism.' 2) A major event in the Middle-East after the U.S. has exhausted itself in a fruitless attempt to occupy and influenc the region. 3) A challenge from Russia regarding NATO and the E.U. ie. the U.S. could get more than it wants when Russia and the E.U. become buddies again...and the U.S. comes under pressure to remove its troops and bases.


The U.S. is undergoing a kind of identity crisis. Flashpoint Events are deeply interwoven with a nation's identity. I suspect that as the identity crisis continues - there will be flashpoint events that mark the crisis and set the new course for good or ill. The volcano will erupt, but it's hard to say where and how the lava will flow.
 
Exactly; so with straw after straw after straw, which particular straw is going to be the modern-day equivalent?
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I mentioned some. Martial law. Dictatorship manifested by complete executive power, dissolution of the legislature, executive control of the judiciary. They actually had that situation and it led to the revolution. We don't, and if we don't like something, we shove it back down our government's throat. The immigration bill is a recent example.

You don't do that to dictatorships.
 
What if one region was agriculture based and was in a situation where a lot of illegal immigrants were involved ... and suppose that another region's party was in power and, in order to stay in power, they made illegal immigrants into citizens and extended to them the right of suffrage ... such that one region had to absorb a foreign population in order to further another region's political party ... that could cause some serious friction.

Or what if the SCOTUS does something like force homosexual marriage onto every State, when 3/4 of the States don't want it ... if it becomes painfully clear that a small minority of States are ruling over the many States, might the many States start exploring their options?
 
Well, let's talk about home. My rent has gone from 1170 to 1640. Add in a fake/illegal/ garbage water bill for 33 a month, along with PGE doubling in less then a year, and, our power consumption dropping about 17%, and, gas going from 270 to 5 bucks, on speculation in the stock market, and, a 9% approval rating by congress...

Meanwhile, they are approving 50 Million/Billion for aids treatment in AFrica(How about that money going to Oakland, Richmond, and a few other places in AMERICA?)

Pelosi is acting like she's saving the world, running around in a 727, while the state of Kali wants to take my 32 mpg, toyota, because it won't match their new smog requirements... I work 7 days a week, most of the time, and, many of those are two or three job days, to barely keep food on the table. I'm not living a cocaine/Ferrari life style, I'm a frigging sub teacher.

It's getting to the point where the people we elect are SO far from reality, thanks to the two party system, that it's a waste to vote...

You can guess where I sit on the issues...
 
My point, exactly. We really have both democats and republicans screwing the pooch, at the same time, and pointing the finger at each other for who's to blame. THEY ARE ALL TO BLAME, and, for once, with a 9% approval rating, the american people recognize it.
 
9% approval, but once again almost all incumbents will be reelected. Congresscritters are like farts. Somehow we're all able to live with our own.
 
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