Can I...
- Thread starter Ruger480
- Start date
Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
All so very true.
Funny how some people have such love for their guns that they fall for all the marketing hype for gun specific products. They therefore get relieved of a lot more money then they need to when it comes to maintaining their firearms cause they just have to pay more for the product 'made specifically for guns'.
As if the steel in their gun is some kind of ultra special steel that comes from the moon or something.
In reality, a person only has to have the knowledge/experience of what non- gun labeled products can be used on guns that are just as effective(and often the same thing as products labeled for guns)) and can save themselves a lot of money over a lifetime of shooting.
All so very true.
Funny how some people have such love for their guns that they fall for all the marketing hype for gun specific products. They therefore get relieved of a lot more money then they need to when it comes to maintaining their firearms cause they just have to pay more for the product 'made specifically for guns'.
As if the steel in their gun is some kind of ultra special steel that comes from the moon or something.
In reality, a person only has to have the knowledge/experience of what non- gun labeled products can be used on guns that are just as effective(and often the same thing as products labeled for guns)) and can save themselves a lot of money over a lifetime of shooting.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
I can't believe what I've been reading in this thread. >.<
Kitchen and laundry appliances to clean our handguns?!
What's the world come to?
Kitchen and laundry appliances to clean our handguns?!
What's the world come to?
I don't think so...
Most have gone over to an Isopropyl based formula due ( I presume) to the popularity of polymer and the stiffening VOC regulations.
Possibly but - with the way VOC regulations are, places like Safety Kleen are pushing an aqueous product.
Spray cans of brake cleaner, like you pick up in Wal Mart are generally non-chlorinated. They have Heptane and Toluene - not mineral spirits.
As a degreaser/cleaner they only work so -so.
The ones that really work well are the chlorinated ones.
I'm not aware of any aerosol brake cleaner that has mineral spirits.
If there is one, I'd be interested to know what the brand is.
Originally posted by Constantine:
I often ask myself the same thing. Especially when I see a new product out on the market that boost to have re-invented the wheel.
Especially when it comes to many(not all) products that come out claiming to have been developed for use on specific items. Then you read the product MSDS sheet and find that this new 'must use this product on ...(submit your item here)... and find that the only difference between this all new, 'must have' product that costs triple what you were originally using, is there's an added ingredient in the new product to make it smell different or be a different color.
I don't think automotive wax was developed specifically to be used on guns any more then I believe ATF or synthetic motor oil was. I don't believe Dawn dishwashing liquid was designed for cleaning bbls. on bp guns or that Walnut shells were put on earth to be crushed and used as a media for cleaning brass for reloading. Or that Chore Boy Scrubbers was developed to be used to remove lead from bbls.
Fact is, all these 'non-gun specific' products(plus many more) have all been time tested as having been used on guns/loading and they work.
I often ask myself the same thing. Especially when I see a new product out on the market that boost to have re-invented the wheel.
Especially when it comes to many(not all) products that come out claiming to have been developed for use on specific items. Then you read the product MSDS sheet and find that this new 'must use this product on ...(submit your item here)... and find that the only difference between this all new, 'must have' product that costs triple what you were originally using, is there's an added ingredient in the new product to make it smell different or be a different color.
I don't think automotive wax was developed specifically to be used on guns any more then I believe ATF or synthetic motor oil was. I don't believe Dawn dishwashing liquid was designed for cleaning bbls. on bp guns or that Walnut shells were put on earth to be crushed and used as a media for cleaning brass for reloading. Or that Chore Boy Scrubbers was developed to be used to remove lead from bbls.
Fact is, all these 'non-gun specific' products(plus many more) have all been time tested as having been used on guns/loading and they work.
aarondhgraham
New member
Just remember - the MSDS isn't a complete listing of all the ingredients, nor is it intended to be.
It's just a document that lists potential safety hazards as they pertain to transport and/or storage.
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/legisl/msdss.html
While it does contain a lot of information you can draw a preliminary opinion on about an item, it's not enough to form a conclusion.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I never claimed that brake cleaner has mineral spirits.
And yes, you are correct, regulations are slowly forcing a change in the composition of gun cleaners.
That's NOT unique to gun cleaners. Virtually every class of chemical product has been affected by changing environmental regulations.
What's also not unique are the new ingredients replacing old ingredients. They're not magically created for this one product/use.
They're not concocted of Unobtainium, Unicorn Farts, Elf Smiles, and Tears from Honest Politicians.
They are, for the most part, pedestrian, commonly available, every day chemicals.
The ONLY thing that makes them "special" are the efforts of the marketing people who sell them.
For example...
Outer's/Gunslick Nitro Powder Solvent contains, among other things... (drumroll, please!)
1. Solvent Naptha. That's a fancy name for... MINERAL SPIRITS.
2. Turpentine. (Love the smell of turpentine)
3. Gun Oil (yep, it's on the MSDS just like that. There's the magic, I guess!)
4. Amyl Acetate. That's the most special chemical in there, and it's pretty common across many industries, including the drug industry.
Hoppes No. 9, on the other hand:
1. Ethanol (basically grain alcohol. You can get the same thing at a lot of liquor stores)
2. Kerosine (which is an earlier spelling of kerosene).
3. Oleic acid (used I think as an emulsifier and maybe a surfecant)
4. Amyl Acetate again
5. Ammonium Hydroxide, used, I'm assuming, as a surfecant.
Those 9 ingredients, in one form or another, are found in a wide array of gun cleaning products.
As I said, there's nothing special about any of them. They all do a fairly decent job of cleaning a gun, but they do it at an exorbiant cost that is all out of proportion to their actual composition.
The only reason for that is that FAR too many in the gun community have bought into the theory that "Wow, my guns are really special, so I need special products to clean them and lubricate them!
If it doesn't cost AT LEAST $132 a gallon I don't want it!"
Yep, that's the equivalent cost of a gallon of unicorn farts in the guise of Hoppes No. 9 will cost you at a rough average of $4.14 a 4 ounce bottle.
I swear to God I'm going to mix up a gun cleaning product...
Call it MIKE'S MYSTICAL MAGICAL MONKEY OIL
Put lots of claims about its power and its suitability for use in cleaning all firearms.
The brilliant part of it's going to be that I'm going to charge $37.50 per 4 ounce bottle.
Based on how quickly people in the gun community are willing to shell out their money, I figure I'll be a multi millionaire in less than a week...
So, how many bottles can I put you down for?
And yes, you are correct, regulations are slowly forcing a change in the composition of gun cleaners.
That's NOT unique to gun cleaners. Virtually every class of chemical product has been affected by changing environmental regulations.
What's also not unique are the new ingredients replacing old ingredients. They're not magically created for this one product/use.
They're not concocted of Unobtainium, Unicorn Farts, Elf Smiles, and Tears from Honest Politicians.
They are, for the most part, pedestrian, commonly available, every day chemicals.
The ONLY thing that makes them "special" are the efforts of the marketing people who sell them.
For example...
Outer's/Gunslick Nitro Powder Solvent contains, among other things... (drumroll, please!)
1. Solvent Naptha. That's a fancy name for... MINERAL SPIRITS.
2. Turpentine. (Love the smell of turpentine)
3. Gun Oil (yep, it's on the MSDS just like that. There's the magic, I guess!)
4. Amyl Acetate. That's the most special chemical in there, and it's pretty common across many industries, including the drug industry.
Hoppes No. 9, on the other hand:
1. Ethanol (basically grain alcohol. You can get the same thing at a lot of liquor stores)
2. Kerosine (which is an earlier spelling of kerosene).
3. Oleic acid (used I think as an emulsifier and maybe a surfecant)
4. Amyl Acetate again
5. Ammonium Hydroxide, used, I'm assuming, as a surfecant.
Those 9 ingredients, in one form or another, are found in a wide array of gun cleaning products.
As I said, there's nothing special about any of them. They all do a fairly decent job of cleaning a gun, but they do it at an exorbiant cost that is all out of proportion to their actual composition.
The only reason for that is that FAR too many in the gun community have bought into the theory that "Wow, my guns are really special, so I need special products to clean them and lubricate them!
If it doesn't cost AT LEAST $132 a gallon I don't want it!"
Yep, that's the equivalent cost of a gallon of unicorn farts in the guise of Hoppes No. 9 will cost you at a rough average of $4.14 a 4 ounce bottle.
I swear to God I'm going to mix up a gun cleaning product...
Call it MIKE'S MYSTICAL MAGICAL MONKEY OIL
Put lots of claims about its power and its suitability for use in cleaning all firearms.
The brilliant part of it's going to be that I'm going to charge $37.50 per 4 ounce bottle.
Based on how quickly people in the gun community are willing to shell out their money, I figure I'll be a multi millionaire in less than a week...
So, how many bottles can I put you down for?
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Just remember - the MSDS isn't a complete listing of all the ingredients, nor is it intended to be."
You're absolutely correct. It's not intended to be, but it is intended to list those items that have the most potential safety impact. And, with a product like this, those are generally the ingredients that actually do the intended job.
But, having been on the industry, I can tell you this with certainty...
What you see on those MSDS charts for gun solvents are the chemicals that clean your guns. There are no magical secret ingredients that get your blues their bluest and your stainless their stainliiest...
You're absolutely correct. It's not intended to be, but it is intended to list those items that have the most potential safety impact. And, with a product like this, those are generally the ingredients that actually do the intended job.
But, having been on the industry, I can tell you this with certainty...
What you see on those MSDS charts for gun solvents are the chemicals that clean your guns. There are no magical secret ingredients that get your blues their bluest and your stainless their stainliiest...
Mike Irwin
Staff
I think most people should be familiar with this gun cleaning solution, but some may not be.
Easy to mix at home, easy to get the ingredients.
Ed's Red, created by Ed Harris, former staffer at American Rifleman magazine.
1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS
#64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or
equivalent, (aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.
Cost of the above...
Dexron - about $5 a quart.
Kerosene - about $1 a quart.
Mineral Spirits - about $6 a quart, IIRC
Acetone - About $9 a quart
To make a gallon of Ed's Red costs approximately $21.
But Dexron? That's for cars, right? But, you can't use stuff intended for use in cars on your guns!
YOU CAN'T!
Or so I've been told over the years.
Easy to mix at home, easy to get the ingredients.
Ed's Red, created by Ed Harris, former staffer at American Rifleman magazine.
1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS
#64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or
equivalent, (aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.
Cost of the above...
Dexron - about $5 a quart.
Kerosene - about $1 a quart.
Mineral Spirits - about $6 a quart, IIRC
Acetone - About $9 a quart
To make a gallon of Ed's Red costs approximately $21.
But Dexron? That's for cars, right? But, you can't use stuff intended for use in cars on your guns!
YOU CAN'T!
Or so I've been told over the years.
None...
I use Ballistol
.I agree - but - only to a point.
If you spray Gun scrubber in and on your gun and you have a problem, then Birchwood Casey has a problem.
OTOH - if you spray Brakleen on and in your gun and have a problem, then R.W Sidley doesn't have a problem, you have a problem.
I believe that's known as a Warranty of merchantability (?)
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I use Ballistol"
SNAKE OIL!
With a distinct lack of Unicorn Farts!
"If you spray Gun scrubber in and on your gun and you have a problem, then Birchwood Casey has a problem.
OTOH - if you spray Brakleen on and in your gun and have a problem, then R.W Sidley doesn't have a problem, you have a problem."
Damn. That can of WalMart brake cleaner just dissolved my Model 1917 S&W!
As I said, I don't have plastic guns.
But... Does Gun Scrubber come with any sort of use warranty? I was under the impression that it did not, and you sprayed it at your own risk.
SNAKE OIL!
With a distinct lack of Unicorn Farts!
"If you spray Gun scrubber in and on your gun and you have a problem, then Birchwood Casey has a problem.
OTOH - if you spray Brakleen on and in your gun and have a problem, then R.W Sidley doesn't have a problem, you have a problem."
Damn. That can of WalMart brake cleaner just dissolved my Model 1917 S&W!
As I said, I don't have plastic guns.
But... Does Gun Scrubber come with any sort of use warranty? I was under the impression that it did not, and you sprayed it at your own risk.
I believe - but - I could be wrong - that every product sold has some sort of implied warranty.
If you buy an apple and bite into it and it's rotten, the seller should be obliged to return your money.
If you bite into it and find it's filled with worms & it makes you ill, then I believe the seller may be held liable for part of your medical bills.
As a consumer, you have quite a bit of protection.
A seller can't say whatever they want and get away with it.
On the flip side, you can't lay blame at the feet of a seller for something their product failed to do if the product wasn't intended for that purpose.
A fairly well known West coast saw blade and tool seller wrote up a good article a few years ago about the dangers of using oven cleaner to clean saw blades.
You'd think oven cleaner wouldn't bother steel - but - it does attack the brazing used to attach the carbide teeth.
In this case, if you use oven cleaner to clean the blade and ruin it, or worse, one of the teeth come loose and nail you in the eye - that's on you, not the blade manufacturer or the oven cleaner manufacturer.
Spats or Frank may know more on the topic.
I'm only as aware of it - warranty of merchantability - as I know from being a small business owner.
Personally - I use so little cleaner in the grand scheme of things, I don't mind spending more.
16 oz of Ballistol lasts me a very long time.
That's just me though.
I really don't have a problem either way - using a DIY product or a "gun" product - - so long as....
If something does go wrong with the DIY, I believe the blame should rest square on the users shoulders.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The warranty of merchantability only covers an ordinary buyer's logical expectations, but there's a HUGE amount of wiggle room in there.
To me, as an ordinary buyer of such a product, I would expect it to be safe to use on steel and aluminum.
I don't consider its safe use on polymer to be an ordinary or logical expectation, simply because I don't have any polymer guns.
But, I DO know that my Mikes Mystical Monkey Oil cleaner IS safe for use on polymer.
I'm not so sure about it being safe for use by humans, however... That whole melty face thing was quite disturbing.
To me, as an ordinary buyer of such a product, I would expect it to be safe to use on steel and aluminum.
I don't consider its safe use on polymer to be an ordinary or logical expectation, simply because I don't have any polymer guns.
But, I DO know that my Mikes Mystical Monkey Oil cleaner IS safe for use on polymer.
I'm not so sure about it being safe for use by humans, however... That whole melty face thing was quite disturbing.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yep. Makes a hell of a bar mixer, too.
As long as you don't mind crippling pain, explosive diarreha, and death.
As long as you don't mind crippling pain, explosive diarreha, and death.
Mike Irwin
Staff
One very important thing I should mention...
NEVER EVER use carburetor cleaner on your firearms!
That stuff IS vicious.
NEVER EVER use carburetor cleaner on your firearms!
That stuff IS vicious.
Back to the OP and the dishwasher,
One potential problem I see is the possibility for retained abrasives in the system. Essentially, a dishwasher is comprised of a grinder of some sort and a centrifugal pump, connected by a few feet of relatively small diameter plumbing. Most dishwashers recirculate the water multiple times and drain only a couple of times per cycle, much like a clothes washer.
There are plenty of nooks and crannies for bits of food and grit and undissolved powdered soap, as well as tiny bits of scale and mineral deposits that have flaked off the walls and heating element. Believe it or not, there's quite a bit of this stuff that never makes it out of the dishwasher, plus you're always introducing more contaminants, however small, via your freshwater supply, even if you're not running dishes through it.
I'll concede it's not like cleaning your guns in a sand blasting cabinet, but I'm not interested in subjecting mine to a 20 min cycle of recirculating abrasives.
One potential problem I see is the possibility for retained abrasives in the system. Essentially, a dishwasher is comprised of a grinder of some sort and a centrifugal pump, connected by a few feet of relatively small diameter plumbing. Most dishwashers recirculate the water multiple times and drain only a couple of times per cycle, much like a clothes washer.
There are plenty of nooks and crannies for bits of food and grit and undissolved powdered soap, as well as tiny bits of scale and mineral deposits that have flaked off the walls and heating element. Believe it or not, there's quite a bit of this stuff that never makes it out of the dishwasher, plus you're always introducing more contaminants, however small, via your freshwater supply, even if you're not running dishes through it.
I'll concede it's not like cleaning your guns in a sand blasting cabinet, but I'm not interested in subjecting mine to a 20 min cycle of recirculating abrasives.
You gotta stop Mike.
My wife just came out and asked me what in the heck was so funny.
I've seen the same arguments and debates about not using 'xyz product' on a motorcycle cause 'xyz product' was designed for cars or cleaning floors or washing the dishes or taking a bath in etc. etc.
No, you have to buy 'abc product' and pay double for it cause it's specifically made for motorcycles and even has a pics. of a Harley on the front of the wrapper.
Want to pay at least triple for products...start messing with boats. Seems anything that is made for a boat or has to do with a marine application is stupid priced. From 'special' waxes to stuff to clean the ' special' carpet in the boat. And don't you dare use regular carpet cleaning solution or automotive wax on that boat or you'll get up in the morning and have nothing but the trailer setting there.
So yes, I agree when our friend Constantine says, "What's the world come to?"
What it has come to is it has gotten to the point that the old adage " a fool and his money shall soon part" has become more of a reality then ever before.
My wife just came out and asked me what in the heck was so funny.
I've seen the same arguments and debates about not using 'xyz product' on a motorcycle cause 'xyz product' was designed for cars or cleaning floors or washing the dishes or taking a bath in etc. etc.
No, you have to buy 'abc product' and pay double for it cause it's specifically made for motorcycles and even has a pics. of a Harley on the front of the wrapper.
Want to pay at least triple for products...start messing with boats. Seems anything that is made for a boat or has to do with a marine application is stupid priced. From 'special' waxes to stuff to clean the ' special' carpet in the boat. And don't you dare use regular carpet cleaning solution or automotive wax on that boat or you'll get up in the morning and have nothing but the trailer setting there.
So yes, I agree when our friend Constantine says, "What's the world come to?"
What it has come to is it has gotten to the point that the old adage " a fool and his money shall soon part" has become more of a reality then ever before.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I call it as I see it.
The humor is a tangible by product!
The humor is a tangible by product!