Can I ship a handgun in-state to another person??

spacecoast
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How did USPS know what you were shipping?
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Exactly. I doubt if I would try to mail an assembled firearm (clearly visible to x-ray), but why in the world wouldn't it ship just fine in pieces? There is nothing hazardous about them whatsoever, so you can answer that question truthfully.

I mailed a box of 300 .22LRs to someone at Christmas and they went through just fine.

Love the part about the "lead throwing machine".
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Where to start.......:confused:

While you may think mailing a firearm in pieces is a neat and clever way to get around USPS/UPS/FedEx regulations or policies, it is actually no different than mailing the entire gun. If you mail a handgun frame, it's EXACTLY the same as mailing the entire handgun. Federal law states that.

Sure, you might get away with mailing ammunition for years. The volume of packages that the USPS handles every day does not allow them to x-ray each package. While you got away with it at Christmas, it's still a Federal crime to mail ammunition. That's not just a US Postal service regulation, it's also a Federal DOT regulation. Ammunition must ship GROUND and must be labled "ORM-D". Failure to do that can result in jail or hefty fines.
 
Shipping a gun

Shipping a rifle or shotgun via usps is legal and there is no requirement to tell anyone what is in the box. There are requirement on the type of shipping container. Shipping a pistol or revolver is not legal via usps.

To ship a pistol via ups or fedex.

Box it up very well. Has to meet their specific standards for firearms, but basically a box in a box, well taped. Use the original box the gun came in and put it inside another box. Insure it for full value.

Use one of the next day services, and make sure you ask for an adult signature. And you cannot use a drop off box. Have to go to a shipping center.

There is NO requirement to state what is in the box. They don't ask and don't care, but I would have it packaged before I went to the shipping office.

I have done all of the above and have in addition been assured by a FFL I was correct. I have also read the usps and ups regs.

Loaded ammunition can be shipped to a home address via usps if it is maked ORD or Ordnance. But primers or powder cannot be shipped via usps unless a special fee is paid. I guess they the figure loose primers and bottled powder is more dangerous than loaded ammo
 
USPS and guns

Those USPS gun regulations are not written to make sense, but rather by a committee. Several people who know nothing about the subject and being duly influenced by outside interests.

However, while I might cut a corner here and there, I will follow the USPS regulations to the letter. There is a very slim chance of anyone shipping a pistol or revolver and getting caught, but if they are caught the feds are going to put you in jail or a big fine. Just because they can. They have no sense of humor at all and very little empathy.

ljg
 
Loaded ammunition can be shipped to a home address via usps if it is maked ORD or Ordnance.
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This is incorrect. From the USPS "Publication 52 - Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail" at the link I posted above:
341.21 Nonmailable Explosives
Nonmailable explosives found in the mailstream must be immediately reported in accordance with POM 139.117.

Nonmailable explosives include, but are not limited to, the following:

Common Fireworks... {section omitted}... All types of fireworks are prohibited from mailing.

Fuses... {section omitted}... are prohibited from mailing.

Small Arms Ammunition. Ammunition is classified as a Division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4 explosive, depending on the degree of hazard. Ammunition that is regulated as a Class 1 explosive and designed to be fired from a pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun, as well as associated primers and blank cartridges (including those designed for tools) and propellant powder for use in any firearm, is prohibited from mailing.
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(emphasis mine)
 
Thanks for giving us some things to think about. Some observations -

Several handguns I have purchased have been delivered by the USPS to my FFL. Presumably this is legal if mailed from another FFL. Would it be illegal if they were mailed from a private seller?

When I have returned guns (assembled) to Ruger, they provided a UPS label that (wisely) said nothing about a firearm, and did not have the word "Ruger" in the address. Likewise, when Ruger sent them back to me, they came directly to my house. Presumably I can use UPS to send firearms to myself in another state when I travel by plane this summer, right?

J&G has a revolver "parts kit" for sale at http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/smith-wesson/revolver/cPath/16_211_431 that specifically says "No FFL". I doubt that they would be shipping this if it was illegal, but knowing how slack they are about customer service I'm actually reconsidering...
 
Ammo

Dogtown Tom.

This last summer I received via USPS several boxes of .45 colt from Natchez Shooting Supply. It was labeled ORD or ORD-?.

Likely was shipped ground, but still USPS.

ljg
 
Several handguns I have purchased have been delivered by the USPS to my FFL. Presumably this is legal if mailed from another FFL. Would it be illegal if they were mailed from a private seller?
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That is legal iff the shipper and the recipient are both licensed dealers (or manufacturers.) I wish they would add "licensed collectors" to the list. If you don't have an 01FFL, 02FFL, or 06FFL, don't try it (there may be other classes of FFL that qualify, but an 03 does not.)
 
Several handguns I have purchased have been delivered by the USPS to my FFL. Presumably this is legal if mailed from another FFL.
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Only dealers and manufacturers can send handguns via USPS. Unlicensed individuals and C&R licensees may not. FWIW the latter are legally considered "collectors", not "dealers".
Would it be illegal if they were mailed from a private seller?
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Yes.
When I have returned guns (assembled) to Ruger, they provided a UPS label that (wisely) said nothing about a firearm, and did not have the word "Ruger" in the address. Likewise, when Ruger sent them back to me, they came directly to my house.
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It is legal for individuals to send firearms to gunmakers for repair and for the gunmaker to return it. It is actually a violation of federal law for a common carrier (i.e. UPS or FedEx) to require a sender to place any sort of label on the exterior of a legal firearms shipment that identifies it as containing a firearm. A company representative can, however, legally ask you what's in the box, and you legally have to answer truthfully.
Presumably I can use UPS to send firearms to myself in another state when I travel by plane this summer, right?
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AFAIK yes, but if the package arrives before you do, the person receiving it may not "take delivery", i.e. open the box, or it becomes an unlawful shipment between individuals.
J&G has a revolver "parts kit" for sale at http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/smi...ath/16_211_431 that specifically says "No FFL". I doubt that they would be shipping this if it was illegal...
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Only a single part of a gun is legally considered to be the "firearm" per the BATFE. This is normally the serial-numbered part, which in the case of a revolver is the frame. All other bits and pieces of the gun are simply considered unrestricted machine parts and can be mailed, shipped via a common carrier, and/or sent to out-of-state unlicensed individuals with no legal restrictions. "Parts kits" can be sold to unlicensed individuals because the serial-numbered part is not included, or is rendered unusable in a manner prescribed by the BATFE, usually by cutting it apart in a way that makes it impossible to reassemble.

An earlier post stated that a USPS employee would not allow an individual to mail non-serialized gun parts. This shipment would be perfectly legal; this is unfortunately a common misconception amongst USPS employees. Be aware, however, that if the serial-numbered part of the firearm is in the box, it is considered a firearm, regardless of whether the other pieces are disassembled or missing.

Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. This is not official legal advice. Caveat emptor. ;)
 
carguychris -

Thanks for the info - Regarding summer travel, after scanning the TSA regulations, I'm wondering if it's less hassle and expense to buy approved airline containers for my handguns or to ship them ahead to relatives and ask them to hold them unopened for me. In the case of a couple of handguns, is it legal to carry them in baggage in a hard-sided container packed in with clothes, etc. in a larger suitcase? The regs don't really seem to discuss that. I've seen the airline-approved containers and they are kind of pricey.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0037552.shtml
 
yrralguthrie:...Shipping a pistol or revolver is not legal via usps.
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Certainly IS legal. Both pistols and revolvers may be legally mailed via USPS if mailed by a licensed firearms dealer, manufacturer or in certain instances a LEO. I do it several times a week- because I'm a firearms dealer. It is by far the cheapest way to ship a handgun, usually less than half the price of UPS or FedEx. Even with my transfer fee it is half the cost of shipping a handgun Next Day Air.

yrralguthrie:...There is NO requirement to state what is in the box. They don't ask and don't care, but I would have it packaged before I went to the shipping office..
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There is no Federal law or regulation that requires you to state what is in the box, no matter if it is USPS, FedEx or UPS. BUT.....both UPS and FedEx have company policies (called tariffs) that require you to tell them when you are shipping a firearm. It doesn't matter if the minimum wage clerk at the local UPS Store said it's okay to ship a handgun Ground, as the tariffs are the final say. BTW most UPS Stores are franchisees and their employees are not employees of UPS. If you fail to properly notify a common carrier that you are shipping a firearm you have fat chance of collecting anything in the event you need to make an insurance claim. I receive upwards of fifty firearms a month. At least 20% of them have some damage (crushed, holes, or tears) to the outside of the box. There is no way I'll try to sneak something by as "machine parts".


yrralguthrie:...Loaded ammunition can be shipped to a home address via usps if it is maked ORD or Ordnance. But primers or powder cannot be shipped via usps unless a special fee is paid. I guess they the figure loose primers and bottled powder is more dangerous than loaded ammo .
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HUH? :eek: This is about as absolutely wrong as one could be.
1. Ammunition MUST be shipped GROUND per Federal Department of Transportation unless you want to pay a hefty HAZMAT fee. You can choose between FedEx Ground or UPS Ground. USPS regs are VERY clear about ammunition not being mailable.

2. There is no special fee to USPS for primers or powder because both are EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN to be mailed through the USPS. Again GROUND (either FedEx or UPS) is the requirement. Anytime you ship primers they must be labled as HAZMAT. There are very detailed and strict shipping requirements for primers and powder.

yrralguthrie Dogtown Tom. This last summer I received via USPS several boxes of .45 colt from Natchez Shooting Supply. It was labeled ORD or ORD-?. Likely was shipped ground, but still USPS.
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Are you positive it wasn't UPS? There is no such service as USPS Ground.

From Natchez website:
"All orders placed over our web site are shipped UPS Ground Residential." The Natchez website has an entire page for HAZMAT shipping info.
 
Thanks for the info - Regarding summer travel, after scanning the TSA regulations, I'm wondering if it's less hassle and expense to buy approved airline containers for my handguns or to ship them ahead to relatives and ask them to hold them unopened for me. In the case of a couple of handguns, is it legal to carry them in baggage in a hard-sided container packed in with clothes, etc. in a larger suitcase?
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I'd recommend searching the L&CR subforum; flying with firearms has been discussed several times at length.

I will, however, share a couple of pieces of advice.

It's perfectly legal to place a hard-sided gun container inside another piece of luggage, but it's not necessarily a smart idea regardless of its legality. A handgun container small enough to fit inside an average suitcase may be small enough for a dishonest baggage handler to slip under his or her jacket. :eek:

There are no regulations requiring the size of the hard-sided container to correspond with the size of the gun, nor are there any regulations stating that other items can't be packed with the gun, other than some common-sense restrictions on ammunition (the gun must be unloaded and random loose rounds are a no-no). Therefore, it makes more sense to get a great big hard-sided container and pack your other luggage with the gun, rather than vice versa. Yes, this means you can lock your expensive laptop and camera(s) in there too! Seriously. :cool:
 
There is no Federal law or regulation that requires you to state what is in the box, no matter if it is USPS, FedEx or UPS.
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FWIW I believe there is a law stating that a common carrier (UPS and FedEx) is allowed to ask you what's in a container, and you're required to answer truthfully. However, IIRC this law is found in the sections of federal law dealing with common carrier shipments generically, not firearms specifically. I'll look for a citation and report back. :)

Regardless, it's been my experience that they often don't ask.
 
+1 to Carguychris


I would also print out a copy of both the TSA firearms policy and the airline firearms policy and take it with me to the airport.




.
 
carguychris
Quote:
There is no Federal law or regulation that requires you to state what is in the box, no matter if it is USPS, FedEx or UPS.
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FWIW I believe there is a law stating that a common carrier (UPS and FedEx) is allowed to ask you what's in a container, and you're required to answer truthfully. However, IIRC this law is found in the sections of federal law dealing with common carrier shipments generically, not firearms specifically. I'll look for a citation and report back.
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This one?:D
ATF Firearms FAQ's
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
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The passage in BOLD is an error that atf.gov admits is an error but doesn't want to correct.:rolleyes:
The FAQ's are great because they simplify the legal mumbojumbo, but they do not carry the weight of the actual law or regulation cited below each FAQ.

In part, the actual Code of Federal Regulations reads:

Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger
who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported
aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition
into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such
common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without
violating any provision of this part.
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Note the phrase "to any person other than...". As Federal law already requires that interstate shipments of firearms can only be sent to FFL's (except in certain circumstances) The only persons who would give the "written notice to the carrier..." would already be committing a Federal crime by shipping the firearm to a nonlicensee.

Example #1 You (a nonlicensee) sold a gun on GunBroker to someone in another state. You follow Federal law and ship to his FFL, who will transfer the firearm to your buyer. As the FFL is a licensed dealer, no written notification is required under Federal law to the common carrier. However, your transaction with that common carrier is subject to that carriers "tariffs" or company policies, which may require you to notify them of the contents of your shipment. Failure to follow the common carriers policies IS NOT a Federal crime.

Example #2 You (a nonlicensee) sold a gun on GunBroker to someone in another state. He is NOT a licensed dealer, collector, importer or manufacturer. He asks you to ship the firearm directly to him, bypassing an FFL in his state. Under CFR 478.31 You would be REQUIRED to notify the common carrier IN WRITING that you are shipping to someone OTHER than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector. Basically, you are incriminating yourself because such shipments are a violation of Federal law.

It DOES require you to tell the common carrier if you are shipping ammunition to a nonlicensee. Example: You sold ammo to a guy in another state. He does not hold an FFL of any type. You must notify the common carrier that you are shipping ammunition.
 
In case it's not already apparent, one needs to be very careful to understand what is federal law and what is the shipper's policy.

While there is no legal requirement to follow a shipper's policies, one needs to be VERY careful not to violate a law in order to try to skirt a shipper's policy.

That doesn't get into the ethics of deceiving a shipper to save money, that's just trying to keep everyone out of jail.

If you are going to ship firearms or ammunition you owe it to yourself to learn the laws that apply. There's no point in going to jail over trying to save a few bucks.
 
For what it's worth FN told me not to tell anyone what was in the box when I shipped back to them via UPS. I agree that there is no reason to disclose, just as long as you do everything legally and you can legally choose not to disclose.
 
Can't believe no one brought up an obvious point. In many cases it is cheaper to pay your FFL holder a fee to ship your handgun for you.

IE my FFL charges $20 plus actual priority, insurance etc which is far cheaper than if I send it via Fedex or UPS next day air.
 
Check your specific airline page for details but the genral regulation for flying is that the gun be unloaded and in a locked hard case with you having the only key. Do not use TSA locks. That hard case can be inside a larger softside suitcase but this is not recommended (and may not be allowed by some airlines). You have to declare the weapon at check in, some airlines charge extra baggage fees, and require ammo be carried in seperate bags, with limits on total weight. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/ollam1.html has an article by Deviant Ollam that covers the specifics of airline carry pretty well.
 
Does anyone have trouble with their FFL dealer accepting a handgun shipment from an unlicensed individual in another state.

I want to buy a handgun from an unlicensed individual on GunBroker. So he's going to need a copy of my dealers FFL. I know some dealers are kind of funny about that, like only other FFL's are allowed to see that information.

I only have experience in transactions between one FFL to another.

Anyway it's the weekend and my dealer is closed so I can't call them to make sure they will do it before I end the auction. Just hope nobody buys it before Monday.
 
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