Can a .22 be your main gun?
- Thread starter jlflegal
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Mousegun Good!
Agree with Iwovet in the thread above, the little PPK clone rides my front pants pocket in hot weather. Sure, I'd rather pack a .45 year round, or my 40S&W, but they are bigger/heavier and don't conceal well in light clothing.
as for effectiveness of the .22LR load, I pack as hot as I can find, the Aguilla Hypevelocity HP's - I've chronographed the little bullets at 1250fps 15' from the little 3.5" barrel's muzzel...the factory specs say it's good for 1750fps from a rifle barrel.
With a little bullet and a bottom of the curve loading, shot placement is Very important. Practice, practice, practice is the name of the game, not just aimed fire, but getting it clear of my pocket and into fireing position. Like the ISPC shooters, I move as I fire...and I shoot at silhouettes, not bullseyes.
Agree with Iwovet in the thread above, the little PPK clone rides my front pants pocket in hot weather. Sure, I'd rather pack a .45 year round, or my 40S&W, but they are bigger/heavier and don't conceal well in light clothing.
as for effectiveness of the .22LR load, I pack as hot as I can find, the Aguilla Hypevelocity HP's - I've chronographed the little bullets at 1250fps 15' from the little 3.5" barrel's muzzel...the factory specs say it's good for 1750fps from a rifle barrel.
With a little bullet and a bottom of the curve loading, shot placement is Very important. Practice, practice, practice is the name of the game, not just aimed fire, but getting it clear of my pocket and into fireing position. Like the ISPC shooters, I move as I fire...and I shoot at silhouettes, not bullseyes.
well, it is kind of the perennial argument. i think most everyone would agree that " bigger is better" for many different reasons. nevertheless, the two people i know of that were killed by guns, post service, were shot with the .22lr cartridge. the first was shot at 10/12 feet in the head with a .22 lr revolver; dropped and never moved. the other was shot twice in the chest with a .22 lr marlin autoloader; he was dead in some 20 minutes. bleed to death internally. a .22 will get my attention; i don't want to get shot with anything. only a fool would stand and laugh. you should use whatever you feel comfortable with and shoot well. mcole
Well, since you asked....
Yes.
But so could a .32, .380, 9x18, 9x19, .40, 10mm, .45, or anything else. As the caliber goes up, the fun goes down as does the carry comfort. I'm apparently one of those rare ducks who's happy with what's at hand when something's needed.
The MOST I've ever enjoyed a pistol was shooting a Ruger .22 semi. I quickly got to where I could chase a can all over the place point shooting with it. A real pleasure to shoot!
However, if given a table full of choices and forced to choose only one, it would be a 9mm compact -- Kahr or Kel-Tec, and based on LACK of comparable favorable experience with the Kahr it would be the P11 -- because while the .22 is the most fun by far, fun has to take a back seat to carry and house duties.
Coltdriver
New member
The one you have in your pocket is the best one, what ever it may be it beats nothing.
I picked up a little Browning Baby and found it can reliably dump 7 rounds in under three seconds, that I could point shoot into a pie plate at 10 feet very easily. That would give me a running start and anyone chasing me will leak out sooner!
So get a CZ or a 1911 and buy a .22 slide. Plink to your hearts content and have a little more umph available at home or in your car.
I picked up a little Browning Baby and found it can reliably dump 7 rounds in under three seconds, that I could point shoot into a pie plate at 10 feet very easily. That would give me a running start and anyone chasing me will leak out sooner!
So get a CZ or a 1911 and buy a .22 slide. Plink to your hearts content and have a little more umph available at home or in your car.
Pistol Meister
Inactive
My Ruger MKII has Crimson Trace laser grips on it. It is a tack driver. I would have no hesitation confronting a bad guy in my house with the MKII w/laser.
That said...I have a .45 in the safe by the bed.
RKD
That said...I have a .45 in the safe by the bed.
RKD
.22 as a main gun?
NO. Can you ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that the shot you make will be to the CNS? No! A larger caliber like the .45 has enough power that even an off target hit will still be likely to stop your attacker. Basically with a .22 you ABSOLUTELY MUST hit the CNS to stop the attacker. Just killing your attacker is not enough if he lives long enough to kill or even severely injure you or a loved one. A larger caliber does not REQUIRE a CNS hit to stop the attacker. Usually, (yes I know, not always) a center mass hit with a larger caliber is enough to stop an attack before you are killed or severely injured.
NO. Can you ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that the shot you make will be to the CNS? No! A larger caliber like the .45 has enough power that even an off target hit will still be likely to stop your attacker. Basically with a .22 you ABSOLUTELY MUST hit the CNS to stop the attacker. Just killing your attacker is not enough if he lives long enough to kill or even severely injure you or a loved one. A larger caliber does not REQUIRE a CNS hit to stop the attacker. Usually, (yes I know, not always) a center mass hit with a larger caliber is enough to stop an attack before you are killed or severely injured.
I hate to get into discussions like this because there are so many variables involved that there is really no right answer. But, that doesn't seem to stop me from doing it anyway.
My opinion, yes, you could use a .22 as your only gun for the purposes you state. Someone earlier made the statement; "Larger calibers improve the odds, but if you work on the assumption that all handguns are underpowered to a greater or lesser degree and you won't be far wrong." This has also been my experience. I have seen a fair number of people shot with handguns including the .22 LR. None provided the awsome power that many think, or that the magazines want you to believe. Now again, the variables are endless, but I would have to honestly say that the majority of people DRT from gunshot wounds that I have seen have been from .22 LR. This doesn't mean that it is an ideal cartridge for self defense, nor does it mean it is better than a larger caliber, but but it will work and work well. I personally don't belive that there is the huge difference in handgun cartridges implied in many of these posts. I honestly don't think the .22 LR is as far behind the others as it would seem from raw numbers and speculation; at least that has been my experience. By far, the vast majority of deaths I have seen from GSW occur because the patient bled out over time, no matter the caliber. Some bleed out faster than others, again, due to those variables. No one is going to be thrown to the ground from the impact of a conventional handgun. Instead the handgun bullet punches a hole through the victim causing the patient to begin bleeding. How much they bleed depends on another endless variety of variables but several important ones include; The bigger the hole, the more they bleed. The more holes the better. If you are hit in the heart, you will bleed out faster than if you are hit in the arm. Plus you have two modalities occuring; bleeding, and pump failure. A shot to the heart with a .22 will kill just as dead as anything. And, I doubt that the time frame involved will be all that different. But, on more marginal hits, the bigger calibers will leave the .22LR behind. Do I carry a .22; NO. Why ? If a .45 ACP tilted the odds in my favor only the tiniest little bit I would carry it, and I think it does a lot more than that. This is my life I am talking about, and I want every break I can get. The larger calibers will work under much less desirable circumstances like instances where you really need penetration, or when you make a more superficial hit. Another thing I will give the .22 is the ability to put a lot of holes in a person in a hurry. At fairly close range I can empty my Ruger MKII in about 4 seconds and can cover the hole with a quarter. Place that quarter in the chest of a human and you will have someone very seriously ill.
"A larger caliber like the .45 has enough power that even an off target hit will still be likely to stop your attacker."
Stop him when is the question. I saw a guy that got shot in the thigh with 230 grain hardball and he refused transport to the hospital. Nothing personal, but I don't agree with this statement at all. If you were talking about a centerfire rifle, I would agree, but I can't support the same for a pistol. I also saw a guy that was shot 17 times with a 9mm who answered his door and let me in. He lived to continue his career in the crack marketplace.
My opinion, yes, you could use a .22 as your only gun for the purposes you state. Someone earlier made the statement; "Larger calibers improve the odds, but if you work on the assumption that all handguns are underpowered to a greater or lesser degree and you won't be far wrong." This has also been my experience. I have seen a fair number of people shot with handguns including the .22 LR. None provided the awsome power that many think, or that the magazines want you to believe. Now again, the variables are endless, but I would have to honestly say that the majority of people DRT from gunshot wounds that I have seen have been from .22 LR. This doesn't mean that it is an ideal cartridge for self defense, nor does it mean it is better than a larger caliber, but but it will work and work well. I personally don't belive that there is the huge difference in handgun cartridges implied in many of these posts. I honestly don't think the .22 LR is as far behind the others as it would seem from raw numbers and speculation; at least that has been my experience. By far, the vast majority of deaths I have seen from GSW occur because the patient bled out over time, no matter the caliber. Some bleed out faster than others, again, due to those variables. No one is going to be thrown to the ground from the impact of a conventional handgun. Instead the handgun bullet punches a hole through the victim causing the patient to begin bleeding. How much they bleed depends on another endless variety of variables but several important ones include; The bigger the hole, the more they bleed. The more holes the better. If you are hit in the heart, you will bleed out faster than if you are hit in the arm. Plus you have two modalities occuring; bleeding, and pump failure. A shot to the heart with a .22 will kill just as dead as anything. And, I doubt that the time frame involved will be all that different. But, on more marginal hits, the bigger calibers will leave the .22LR behind. Do I carry a .22; NO. Why ? If a .45 ACP tilted the odds in my favor only the tiniest little bit I would carry it, and I think it does a lot more than that. This is my life I am talking about, and I want every break I can get. The larger calibers will work under much less desirable circumstances like instances where you really need penetration, or when you make a more superficial hit. Another thing I will give the .22 is the ability to put a lot of holes in a person in a hurry. At fairly close range I can empty my Ruger MKII in about 4 seconds and can cover the hole with a quarter. Place that quarter in the chest of a human and you will have someone very seriously ill.
"A larger caliber like the .45 has enough power that even an off target hit will still be likely to stop your attacker."
Stop him when is the question. I saw a guy that got shot in the thigh with 230 grain hardball and he refused transport to the hospital. Nothing personal, but I don't agree with this statement at all. If you were talking about a centerfire rifle, I would agree, but I can't support the same for a pistol. I also saw a guy that was shot 17 times with a 9mm who answered his door and let me in. He lived to continue his career in the crack marketplace.
dirtbrokegundude
New member
Looks like 444 wrapped this thread up with a 500 word essay.
Crimper-D: please test your ammo thoroughly. I have tried Aquilas Hyper-Super-Whatever Velocity rounds myself. I had several misfires in a box of 50 rounds. One or two wouldn't go off at all, few fired when tried for the second time.
I admit, my experience with this round is pretty limited. But enough not to trust this round for anything other than plinking.
I admit, my experience with this round is pretty limited. But enough not to trust this round for anything other than plinking.
Can a .22 be your main gun?
I say YES. There seem to be many reasons too. A person may be just developing an interest in handguns and a .22 is a good “first” gun. If you’re in a situation were it’s not practical to spend lots on money on ammo, (married, kids, bills) .22 ammo is the best value! Also my dad has always said jokingly, beware of the man who only owns “one” gun. If for some reason I could only own “one” gun, I would choose a .22. I have a .45 for home and carry a .380 24 / 7, yes bigger is better but realistically the odds that I’ll ever have to use one at home or out is very slim. In all honesty I’d probably be better off in a crisis situation with my little TPH due to the fact that I put about 50 rounds a month through my “PONY” and about 3 to 4 hundred rounds a month through my “TPH”. Why? It’s FUN and CHEAP.
I say YES. There seem to be many reasons too. A person may be just developing an interest in handguns and a .22 is a good “first” gun. If you’re in a situation were it’s not practical to spend lots on money on ammo, (married, kids, bills) .22 ammo is the best value! Also my dad has always said jokingly, beware of the man who only owns “one” gun. If for some reason I could only own “one” gun, I would choose a .22. I have a .45 for home and carry a .380 24 / 7, yes bigger is better but realistically the odds that I’ll ever have to use one at home or out is very slim. In all honesty I’d probably be better off in a crisis situation with my little TPH due to the fact that I put about 50 rounds a month through my “PONY” and about 3 to 4 hundred rounds a month through my “TPH”. Why? It’s FUN and CHEAP.
444, I agree with a lot of your points but as you said:
The main thing I have to disagree about is the fact that you focus almost exclusively on bleeding. Agreed that a hit in the right spot with a .22 will cause you to bleed out as quickly as a larger caliber, however, the function of a handgun for self defense is not to kill, rather to stop the fight. Killing your attacker is a desirable end result but not the purpose. The purpose is to stop the fight. To stop the fight you must cause enough damage to your attacker to force (notice I said force) them to lose interest in continuing the attack.
I believe that energy transfer is the more important factor in stopping the attack. I do not have the energy figures in front of me but I do know that the .45 has considerably more energy than the .22. If the bullet does not exit then all the energy is transferred to your attacker, causing damage. I view this as similar to striking your attacker with a punch or kick. Take the difference between sparring in Karate with a lightweight or a heavyweight. All other factors being equal (experience, expertise) the heavyweight will win. Sparring with a lightweight, he will be faster and probably hit you more often but it simply does not hurt as much as a heavyweight.
In reference to bleeding, or stopping the heart, it takes 7 seconds to lose consciousness if blood flow to the brain is completely cut off. Try a sleeper hold sometime. 7 seconds is a lot of time for someone to do you a considerable amount of damage. You mentioned you could empty a Ruger into a quarter sized spot in 4 seconds. Again, 4 seconds is a lot of time in a fight. In 4 seconds, the average person could cover a distance of somewhere near 25 yards. Can you hit a moving target 10 times in 25 yards and still keep all shots in a quarter? I know I can't.
The only cartridge that I can think of that would reliably put someone down and out is the .50 BMG. I've heard of people surviving hits with that cartridge. There will always be people who can survive massive damage, but on average .38 special or larger is the self defense caliber of choice. When I don't know from personal experience, I have to go based on the consensus of other peoples' experience.
I apologize to the forum members for the length of this post but I felt that a well reasoned post such as 444's deserved the same in response.
Totally agree, however, I think there are some points you may have missed or misread, whatever.
Agreed.
The main thing I have to disagree about is the fact that you focus almost exclusively on bleeding. Agreed that a hit in the right spot with a .22 will cause you to bleed out as quickly as a larger caliber, however, the function of a handgun for self defense is not to kill, rather to stop the fight. Killing your attacker is a desirable end result but not the purpose. The purpose is to stop the fight. To stop the fight you must cause enough damage to your attacker to force (notice I said force) them to lose interest in continuing the attack.
I believe that energy transfer is the more important factor in stopping the attack. I do not have the energy figures in front of me but I do know that the .45 has considerably more energy than the .22. If the bullet does not exit then all the energy is transferred to your attacker, causing damage. I view this as similar to striking your attacker with a punch or kick. Take the difference between sparring in Karate with a lightweight or a heavyweight. All other factors being equal (experience, expertise) the heavyweight will win. Sparring with a lightweight, he will be faster and probably hit you more often but it simply does not hurt as much as a heavyweight.
In reference to bleeding, or stopping the heart, it takes 7 seconds to lose consciousness if blood flow to the brain is completely cut off. Try a sleeper hold sometime. 7 seconds is a lot of time for someone to do you a considerable amount of damage. You mentioned you could empty a Ruger into a quarter sized spot in 4 seconds. Again, 4 seconds is a lot of time in a fight. In 4 seconds, the average person could cover a distance of somewhere near 25 yards. Can you hit a moving target 10 times in 25 yards and still keep all shots in a quarter? I know I can't.
The only cartridge that I can think of that would reliably put someone down and out is the .50 BMG. I've heard of people surviving hits with that cartridge. There will always be people who can survive massive damage, but on average .38 special or larger is the self defense caliber of choice. When I don't know from personal experience, I have to go based on the consensus of other peoples' experience.
Not taken personally. Perhaps I should have said "off center". However, too many people who have been there have agreed that the .45 is effective as a self defense caliber in most situations.
I apologize to the forum members for the length of this post but I felt that a well reasoned post such as 444's deserved the same in response.
Thank you for the reply. I don't think we disagree. The problem is, what stops the attacker ? There is only one thing that I know of that wil stop and attacker instantly and that is a shutdown of the central nervous system. Either a shot to the brain or a shot that severs the spinal cord up high like in the neck. Every other shot that I can think of, may or may not stop the person instantly, once again depending on endless possiblilies. If you don't make the CNS shot, we are right back to bleeding. And, you are right, it takes 4-6 minutes before permenant brain damage occurs from hypoxia. But, what happens in the mean time is influenced by the endless variables again. One guy might soil himself as soon as he sees you have a gun. Another guy might panic when hit in the pinky with a .22. Someone else might carry on the fight for several minutes after a shot to the subclavian artery. All three times, the gun stopped the fight, but we have no way of knowing what will happen the next time. So, since you never know, you have to carry the biggest thing that is practical, practice with it, and hope for the best.
dirtbrokegundude
New member
Shot placement is always more important than shot size....period.
I'd rather hit with a .22 than miss with a .45.
I'd rather hit with a .22 than miss with a .45.
Whoever told you that a .45 is inaccurate?! .45s are some of the most accurate guns out there. Without going broke you can practice enough for more than enough accuracy for self defensive purposes. Reliability is another highly important issue. Many say it is the MOST important issue for a self defense gun. Here the .45 and 9mm have it all over the .22lr.
So lets pose this another way:
I'd rather have a hit with a .45 (or 9mm, .40, .380, add your favorite CENTERFIRE caliber here) than a JAM with a .22!
"It has long been our dogma that stopping power is an essential element of the defensive triad, and this remains true as ever. However, the purpose of defensive combat is to stop one's adversary, and a 22 rimfire hit in the tear duct will stop any fight of which we have knowledge. Thus we do not push the 22 pistol as a defensive sidearm, but we do insist that perfect placement with the 22 is decisive. There is a place for the miniature 22 pistol, as long as it is well crafted and easy to use. It appears that most defensive confrontations are terminated solely by the display of a firearm. This cannot be proven, but the mass of street experience suggests that it is true. Nobody wants to get shot with any sort of pistol, which brings us around to the first principle of gun fighting, which is "Have a gun!"
Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper
