Calling all electrical experts induction help

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The work coil can make a big difference, I made a bunch of them trying different designs for float-zone silicon crystal growth.

Some designs could be better referred to as a knife where others would heat an area so large it was difficult to control.

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Annealing rifle cases doesn’t have to be very complicated though, a simple machine can anneal them all the same.

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I shied away from the Annie induction annealer or a DIY induction unit for the reason jmorris posted
Some designs could be better referred to as a knife where others would heat an area so large it was difficult to control.
. I ended up with a Annealeez For repeat-ability purposes I modified it with a Digital Display LED PWM I picked up from Amazon for 14 dollars. I may not get a perfect anneal like the AMP but I do get a consistent anneal that is so convenient I anneal after every firing. I might be old fashioned but I like a heat source that I can see and control
 
Annealing rifle cases doesn’t have to be very complicated though, a simple machine can anneal them all the same.

How much for the simple machine?

I think I can get better quality control and consistent with the Annie, I don't have the AMP so no opinion, I do like to see what I am working on. I would shoot for slightly under perfect.

I am laughing at HD (sorry)

Must have been fun to watch the plant mysteriously put out heat!

Course Rickovers Nukes were well trained and backed up

Unlike Fukushima where they put the generaros and swith gear in the basement.
 
Jeephammer,

At 12V he will have about 1/16th the deliverable power he has at 48 volts.

Iron doesn't focus the magnetic field, it increases its local intensity by having its own magnetic domains magnetized by it and therefore contributing to magnetic flux density in and around the iron. It also has higher resistance than copper, so it dissipates more power (as heat) for any given level of induced current.

The word "ferrous" is from the Latin, "ferrum", meaning iron. If something has no iron in it, it is not ferrous, regardless of its electromagnetic properties. Those properties are defined separately from the composition of the material. There are even materials (copper is one of them, albeit only slightly) that are not only not magnetizable but that are actually anti-magnetic. That is, copper is slightly repelled by any magnet.

There is nothing mysterious, much less mind-blowing or self-exploding to me about stranded wire being superior in this application. As you suggest, we are in frequencies where skin effect is a few thousandths of an inch, so the fact stranded wire puts that skin of current all around the outside of the strand shapes does, indeed, increase the cross-section of the skin and therefore presents lower resistance. Litz wire does do even better. However, the insulation around each strand is not only an electrical insulator, it is also a thermal insulator as compared to copper, which traps heat, limiting Litz wire's current capacity to that which makes enough heat to cook the insulation.
 
How much for the simple machine?

I think I can get better quality control and consistent with the Annie

$300.

What is it that makes you think you can get better or more consistent results from it?

How would we measure the difference if we were to put both to use side by side?
 
@RC20 I don't have anything against induction annealing, it is just that I don't consider the Annie to be properly designed for annealing cases because you have no way of knowing that the case is in the proper place to concentrate the heat in the proper place on the case. If I could fit a AMP annealer into my budget there would be one on my workbench tommorrow. Nuke reactors are designed and tested by engineers to heat water, your Annie was designed to bend neon tubing not as a case annealer. Then they discovered the wonderful world of reloading and rebranded it as a case annealer.

You seem to have a had a lot of issues just trying to calibrate it, with my rig I know exactly where the heat is being applied to the case and for exactly how long. I have not even bothered using Templaq beyond the initial calibration. I just set the digital speed controller to 25 for a .260 case and 37 for a .223 adjust the torch flame so the inner cone of the flame is at the junction of the neck and shoulder and I get a consistent anneal every time. Works for me and cost me less than 300 dollars including my modifications
 
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Just pulling the chain on the nukes, ironic what you get to like and not.

I always though electrical panels should vibrate or something to indicate you are getting to close like a rattle snake.

I know we keep kicking this back and forth, I contend the Annie is better, unlike a torch I can see exactly what is going on, and that in turn revealed the fallacy of depending on the liquefied paint on.

Its not the Annie, its the measurement mechanism that does not suit.

Like all good techs, I just have to find a way to work around a fault.

Having moved the case around in the field, I can tell you once you have the Ferrite coil size down decently (per JH - thank you) the difference in the reaction/response is not detectable.

I think mine are more consistent and better annealed (not perfect)

Now we have to see if JH will microsection cases from both of us and break the disagreement!.

I do contend that perfection is not possible, even with the AMP.

I don't know if AMP is better or not, but with the variable of any annealing, you would be better off short on the average and at worst almost perfect for the occasional case that is an outlier.

Flip is true as well, you will have some under.

And my take is an opinion, I can't prove it (could not afford to) but it feels right.
 
I know we keep kicking this back and forth, I contend the Annie is better, unlike a torch I can see exactly what is going on, and that in turn revealed the fallacy of depending on the liquefied paint on.

Its not the Annie, its the measurement mechanism that does not suit.


yet Fluxeon sells the 750 liquid Templaq on it's site to calibrate the Annie. I have no reason to doubt you on your report that the liquid will not work but it does make me wonder how they tested their machine

http://www.fluxeon.com/flux/

Not sure how you can see a magnetic field. I thought about this a lot before I purchased the Annealeez. I can think of no way to accurately map the flux lines and be assured that the heat is being concentrated just on the neck and shoulder instead of at the end of the neck or somewhere on the body of the case. If you go 3/8 ths of an inch in either direction from the neck/shoulder junction the annealing process is worthless at best and dangerous at worst. And by the way if I had it to do over again I think I would have shelled out a few extra bucks for the Giraud unit or bought a carousel unit like the one pictured above. The Annealeez needed a few mods to get it working to my satisfaction. If I ever win the lottery there will be a Amp on my case prep bench
 
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I contend the Annie is better, unlike a torch I can see exactly what is going on...

The process of induction is a field that you can’t see, I could tell you more about heat input by looking at a flame than I could by looking at a case sitting in a coil (assuming I had no other instruments on either).
 
HD:

The Annie is off a multi use system. I confirm myself things are good, nothing against Fluxeon, but always a good thing.

We are using it for very specific and the mfg spent enough time with it to come up with a system, but I don't think it was done per JH specs.

I went with the flux concentration coil setup.

With my setup, I am no more than 1/8 out of position.

Per JH I also used one wider spacing on the concentration coil.

Lowers the heat rise and can see things better.

To confirm your quality control you need to sectioning the brass and do a microscopic exam. I can't do that so I go a bit low.

There is also brass variability.

Having to tune up equipment is nothing new for me (or a process).

Sometimes the mfg is just plain wrong. I don't argue that, as long as I can adjust it to work I am good.

With the AMP you can see anything at all. It may work just fine, but I do like to see or have feedback.
 
What is it that makes you think you can get better or more consistent results from it?

How would we measure the difference if we were to put both to use side by side?

I have listed the process I have gone through. Its pretty thorough.

None of my stuff is spinning and its not awash in flames. I can take it to excess and prove what the upper limit is. I then shoot for below perfect. I compensate for not perfect by doing the anneal more often.

Side by side I can't prove anything, but as JH has noted, you need some special equipment to actually do so.
 
I have listed the process I have gone through. Its pretty thorough.

None of my stuff is spinning and its not awash in flames. I can take it to excess and prove what the upper limit is. I then shoot for below perfect. I compensate for not perfect by doing the anneal more often.

Side by side I can't prove anything, but as JH has noted, you need some special equipment to actually do so.

You can’t hurt them by under annealing or even annealing correctly but if you over cook them once, annealing them more isn’t going to help.

I also understand it’s cold out and we are just occupying our time but theory, think and should, never proved a thing.

Do you know what .125” off center does with the coil you are using?
 
Mr. Morris, you always impress!
I messed with vertical tubes (Pyrex is a wonderful thing!) But I had issues heating the head of the case above it, so I used a drop through rig, simple slider to dump annealed case & replace the void with new case for annealing.

Worked fine for stright cases, but bottle neck cases prevented using a close fitting FIXED mount Ferrite core since the head of the case hangs up on the Ferrite.
I could have fixed this by using a slider/transfer from tube to annealing position, then over to a drop, but I simply didn't build that longer slider with the stop in the middle for the annealing station.

-----

RC20,
Ferrite allows for CLOSE annealing, and an added benefit is you can shape the Ferrite to anneal more or less on specific parts of the case.
Opening it up for case mouths keeps sharp edges from champfering/deburring from over heating, while you can taper off the anneal down on the case sides.
Shaping the Ferrite also allows you to add a little more heat to the case as it gets thicker from neck to shoulder.
With the cheap costs of Ferrites, you can Experiment & fine tune to the Nth degree, getting EXACTLY what you want for any particular type/brand of case, and to PROPERLY anneal cases that have previously been worked, like cases that are champfered/deburred.

----
THEROY GUYS & FAN BOYS...
Honestly, I'm not impressed by what 'Theroy' you found on any random internet website.
When you get burned and zapped by the actual components as you actually DO SOMETHING, your 'Absloute Belief' ('Belief' being another word for 'I Don't Know Fact') turns into a bunch of questions...

Why does 800* paint melt before 750* paint?
Answer is, (and I long suspected since I worked with thermocouples & infrared)
Templaq doesn't give accurate readings on copper or when electricity is involved.
I FINALLY pried this out of an engineer once I sent them videos of 800* melting before 750*.
No recommendations from the engineer...

Why does a 'Non-Magnetic' brass case MOVE in the electrical field?
Seems brass isn't non-magnetic after all... Neither is aluminum by the way, they are just VERY LOW on the magnetic scale...

My question is,
Why DOESN'T the electrical annealers for cartridge brass have a 'Taper Down' (reduced power) at the end of the cycle?
This would allow us to get a MUCH better anneal on the case by maintaining temp over time instead of full power/heat all the time...
Seems easy to design the circuit from scratch to do this, but next to impossible for home users to modify for this.

I notice the guys that DO & BUILD speak in much less absloute terms than the 'Theroy' or Fan Boys do!
Guess we have been there, done that & know how bad things can go wrong, how 'Theroy' doesn't pan out in the real world, and why some graph or chart has never actually annealed anything...

.....

As for the 'Theroy', there is no 'Theroy' once it's put into common useage. Period.
You simply have to be satisfied with an off the shelf unit, or you Experiment to get exactly what you want, no 'Theroy' involved.

As for 'Root Words', I call BS.
Every word of latin, Greek or Roman, has evolved or been coopted for common useage...
Electrical engineers always loose their mud when someone without a degree figures out how to use something beyond what the EEs learned in school...

We aren't breaking any laws of physics here since we CAN do this stuff, and just because the electrical text books didn't cover magnetics doesn't mean it won't work.

What I have to explain to electrical types all the time is we ARE NOT working with electrical currents, it's the magnetic field doing the work. The electrical components are simply providing power for the magnetic field(s).
Then I have to point out that every common transformer has a MAGNETIC core, that MAGNETIC core (be it air, gas or solid/ferrous) SHAPES the magnetic field...
It either concentrates (focuses), diffuses (spreads out), speeds or slows the magnetic field...
And that's usually where their heads swell to the point of popping!

When you say iron or steel 'Focuses' the magnetic field, the EEs all pop a blood vessel...
Well, *IF* they had watched the changes in the magnetic field, 'Focus' is as good a word as any.
In the case of a single, solid core, like a drill bit, the field condenses around the drill.
When the power is shut down, the outlying magnetic field doesn't dissipate into space, its drawn to the 'Core', focused on that drill.
The field doesn't expand around the electrical conductor anymore, it focuses on the drill, positive & negative magnetic poles emanite from the core, not the conductor coils anymore.

I'd call this pretty good evidence the core FOCUSES the magnetic field.

Magnetism exists in absence of electrical, it's a primal force of nature.
Electrical CAN NOT exist without a magnetic field. Period.
By definition, and electrical current produced a magnetic field, so an electrical potential or current can not exist without a magnetic field.

They ALL argue this point right up until I hand them a compass and ask where the electrical components is... Open mouth & silent... The text books & degree they beat people over the head with just failed them...

As for 'Ferrous', the root word in (Greek) latin is 'ferrocerium' and means 'Ferocious,' or 'Energetic' not 'Iron'.
Ferrous has evolved into common useage to rate magnetic attraction.

Another one of those text book mistakes...
'Iron' was 'Ferocious', it (iron filings & iron oxide, rust) caught fire and burned hotter than anything known at the time.
We still use iron oxide as an incendiary in the form of thermite to burn through engine blocks & armor.
It was commonly used well into the 1900 to weld cast iron, stuff like shafts back together.
 
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RC20,
I'm glad my screw up and outright failures have helped you!
Honestly, if we don't share, this is going nowhere real fast...

Actual DOING will get a ton more accomplished than all the postulating in the world...

When I screwed up, I sometimes got lucky and someone pointed out something I didn't know or hadn't thought of, and that's why I'm annealing at the rate, and with the consistency I am today.
I'm no expert, but at least I learned how much I didn't know!

I had a contract for semi-spherical brass springs, looks like a domed washer, for the military...
Guess how that went...? :(
Cost me a TON of money to get an actual brass engineer in here to get me on track.
This is where I learned the metalurigic end of brass, micrographs, etc. since just the hardness tester wasn't getting the job done.
Cost $30,000 to get him in the door, so if that information helps you out, I *Feel* I'm getting more out of my money! (Not actual, but I *Feel* better... Am I turning into a woman talking about my feelings? :) )

I dragged my tired butt out to Missouri two weeks ago, saw ATKs annealing process for the new military ammo, all electro-magnetic induction.
The long range ammo, and the new M855A1 (5.56 penetrator, still not calling it 'Armor Piercing') is highly accurate, and it's all electromagnetic induction annealed.

The M855A1 is being used as the 'Designated Marksman' round since it's more accurate than the current DM ammo, and the cases are now hydro-formed.
I'm SURE it's got a lot to do with General Dynamics new SECRET powder, getting the same velocity out of a short barrel as a long barrel without overpressure...
They wouldn't even let me see the containers the powder comes in, so don't ask me what it's like, big secret and they are serious about keeping it!

One thing I'm trying at home, I've been using high temp resin on the ends of the Ferrite.
Hoping to stop the occasional hang up on the Ferrite as the annealer feeds through, and hoping it will more precisely locate the brass between Ferrite gap ends.
Don't know if this will help, but besides stinking when it's curing, and sticking the application popsicle stick to the work bench, it doesn't seem to have any drawbacks...
I heap it on, let it cure and file/sand to shape. No more square edges or lips for things to hang up on, and no need for fiberglass tubing or strips to keep the cases centered in the Ferrite when they try to move around.

I haven't had much time to work on my personal stuff lately, my primary customer had SEMA show out in Vegas (what a nightmare) and now they are kicking me to produce fixtures & jigs for new products.
They do pay the bills, so I'm doing it...
 
There is no "Theroy" except for fellows named "Roy". The word is 'theory". The rest of what you said is equally creative.

You are welcome to make up your own notions of how physics work. But where you disagree with people who have formal education in these subjects, realize you are not disagreeing simply with them, personally, but with generations of scientists and experimenters who laid the foundation for what they were taught. As it relates to basic electricity and magnetism, this stuff has been demonstrated over and over in laboratory sessions by every generation of engineering and physics students who ever graduated. Your disagreement with such a host of people is a clue that you missed something. That's no surprise, as you are asking just one person, yourself, to reinvent electromagnetic physics, which would be a tall order for anybody.

It is a leap of faith to assume you've seen some effect no historical electrical experimenter has ever seen, much less to make the gratuitous assertion that they can't explain what you've seen without inventing some new physics or without depending on some sort of alchemical transmutation of brass properties to iron properties. That is not what happens. If you choose to believe it, nonetheless, that is your prerogative, but you help nobody by lecturing them about these personal beliefs as if they were fact. Misuse of terminology and misrepresentation of what is fact doesn't help anyone.

If you can't explain something like the movement of brass in a changing magnetic field, just look it up. Or go visit Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry where you can feel a permanent magnet slow down a rotating copper disc as you turn it, or watch magnetic reaction against induced magnetic fields levitate and rotate an aluminum plate. The explanations are on placards you can read right there and then and they don't involve a new physics. The machine that levitates and rotates aluminum, brass, copper or any other conductor was built by GE in the 1930's, designed by engineers who believed in and employed conventional physics theory and calculations to make it happen. No new belief system or theoretical framework was needed to make magnetic fields move aluminum or brass. It's the same electromagnetic forces at work that propel a rail gun projectile, which also contains no iron. You just have to take the time to do some research and I think you'll be amazed how many people have been there before you.
 
Maybe we could sort of drift back to the basics as to what annealing brass does to the alloy and why its effects are desirable? Then as to using for example induction heating what features would be more desirable and features we may not care as much about. Just as an example watching the process? Do we prefer to shove our brass in a chamber and assume everything is going well or do we prefer to watch the process visually? Maybe we want a very fast heat up process and then a slower reduction of power? What exactly, step by step would we like in the actual process?

A few years ago I looked at a few home brew projects and came across this unit which I found interesting. The heart of the unit is the likely most commonly available induction heater module out there on Amazon. I did a very brief email exchange with Gina and questioned a few of the parts used and her response was pretty simple, in some cases they used what they had, including the 120 VAC fans and the timers used.

I also found this somewhat improved version of the Fluxeon Annie system.

Roll your own or buy these things are like buying a chronograph in that you are best to sit down with a real sharp pencil and a blank sheet of paper and begin writing down features ranging from must have to nice to have. Then look long and hard at what is out there and available and decide if over the counter or home brew is the best route for you.

As to the original post? That was likely answered in the first several replies to the thread.

Ron
 
Annealing starts by taking the stress between grains out.
Not hard to follow this one, or on micrographs you can see it.
Initially, heating expands/shifts slivers & smaller (Sharp) broken pieces, when the brass cools, there is clearance/stress relief.

This is the benefit most home annealers see, stress relief keeps the brass from cracking g as soon.

The second stage is consolidation/reabsorbing of the dust/slivers from the broken grains.
The slivers/dust are in direct contact with the grain, and are readily reabsorbed.

This is where you CAN go wrong.
Since you must maintain the temp over time for this to happen, home annealer can quite easily overheat the brass and start separating base metals in the alloy.
Full 'Power' heat application is the issue, no reduced power application to maintain temp without increasing the temp...

For the consolidation to happen, it's a better idea to have a very controlled heat source and add TIME for the consolidation to happen. A reduced power ability would solve the time issue without the overheat issues.

The third part of annealing is grain GROWTH.
If the heat is too high (or too long), the grains will absorb each other.
In a micrograph, you are looking at a very specific size sample, relatively just a few microns.
Your micrograph will fill up with a single grain or two, this is a MONO-CHRYSTALINE condition, grains just too big.

When you see a 'Glow', you are well into the area this can happen, at 'Red' or 'Orange', you have ruined the brass.

Like has been printed time & time again, 'Under Annealing' (Lesser Annealing) is preferable by far to ruining the brass! Let the 'Theroy' guys chew on that all they want...

The ONLY way to determine the difference between 'Just Right' & Ruined is a micrograph, which is why I learned to do micrographs, and applied that education to cartridge cases.
A hardness tester won't tell you the difference no matter what any specific annealer manufacturer says.
I tried, it didn't work, had to learn how to mount & prepare a micrograph sample...

The 'Trick' for the home annealer is simply to keep the heat as even as possible, don't overheat the brass, learn when to stop by using some sort of temp indicator. Stay below a 'Glow' and you pretty much get good results.
For the OCD types, buy a microscope and learn to prepare samples, this is destructive testing.

-----

As for rewriting the laws of physics work, or seeing magnetic fields work...
There are cameras that show you the magnetic lay lines, you can actually directly SEE the magnetic field and what it does.
Florida State University has a wonderful magnetics research lab, and they post about everything.
I suggest you have a look at what's happened in the last 3-5 decades since you cracked a textbook (that was wrong in the first place).

Something as simple as laying a sheet of paper on the magnetic field and using magnetic powder to directly SEE the magnetic field also works.
Won't work in this case since the magnetic field flips polarity so fast, but you will get 'Fuzzy' spots where the eddies happen...
When kids got an actual education, every kid laid a sheet of paper on a magnet and sprinkled magnetic powder on that sheet to directly see the magnetic field lay lines.
Nothing 'theoretical' or need static charts/graphs and complicated textbook explanations or EE degrees for it.

If you want to make a sheet that shows you magnetic fields yourself, here is an open source site that shows you how...
http://www.instructables.com/id/Ferrocell-Magnetic-Fields-Viewer/

And as it turns out, there is an 'App' that allows smart phone CCD to directly observe magnetic lay lines in real time...

So, as for 'Rewriting Physics', it's not me, it's technology and people that didn't read the same outdated textbook...
This is a prime example of how these old wives tales get such long lives,
"You don't have *MY* degree, you don't have *MY* textbook (4 or 5 decades old), so you can't POSSABLY know what you are talking about..."

Nothing beats the education you get when you scrape, scratch, claw your way to a result.
Seems the laws of physics didn't read your textbook either!

....

There is a reason we refer to transformer coils by the MAGNETIC CORE types they are...
Stright core, E-core, solid core, laminated core, Ferrite core, etc.

I'll say that again, transformer coils are classified by their MAGNETIC CORE TYPES.
How the CORE shapes & focuses the magnetic field, rounds, flattens, expands, or contracts the MAGNETIC field.
The electrical current means nothing, these coils produce results no matter what the electrical input is...
The shaping of the magnetic field determines the OUTPUT on the other side of the transformer...
EEs choke when you prove this by using exactly the same electrical input, coil winding ratios, but change the core material or shape.

The core simply manipulates the magnetic field, giving it a focus, so the transformer is more or less effective.
The focus/shaping applies to this application as well, even though there isn't a secondary winding since this isn't an electrical conversion/manipulation application...

....

If you want to actually see the change as magnetics went from 'Theroy' to practical use,
Then have a look at a model T car coil, then a round canister coil up until the 70s, then the E-core & bobbin wound coils in modern vehicles.
Everyone that's been under a car hood should be able to relate to that!

It's always interesting to me that EEs have to have the difference between a solid magnetic core & a laminated magnetic core explained to them by a 'Layman' when things go sideways!
 
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To me proper annealing is made up of 3 parts. Time, temperature, and positioning. If any of the three is off then the process is either useless or harmful.

Making a jig for one of these home grown or Annie units would easy but first you have to know within a fraction of a inch where that heat is being concentrated. Just my opinion but in this situation theory is great but without a consistent method of applying it in practice is risky
 
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