Caliber VS Capacity
- Thread starter DonutGuy
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Where's the "Probably Doesn't Matter in Real Life" category in the Poll?
Skilled & trained competency, combined with awareness, mindset, overall health (to otherwise survive the physical stresses possibly involved, or take into consideration any disabilities/injuries), knowledge of the applicable laws, familiarity with a chosen firearm used as a dedicated defensive weapon and having some training & experience in using good tactics and strategy in various situations ... are all arguably more important than some perceived inherent superiority regarding either "caliber" or "capacity".
Sure, sometimes I've reached for a 7+1, 8+1, 9+1 or 10+1 capacity smallish 9mm or .40 S&W pistol instead of a couple of slightly thicker and heavier .45's with 6+1 & 7+1 capacity ... unless I simply felt like choosing a .45 that day/evening.
However, I often carry one or another 5-shot J-frame, so how concerned do I appear regarding either caliber or capacity?
Training, training, training ... practice, practice, practice.
I voted in neither category in the Poll.
Skilled & trained competency, combined with awareness, mindset, overall health (to otherwise survive the physical stresses possibly involved, or take into consideration any disabilities/injuries), knowledge of the applicable laws, familiarity with a chosen firearm used as a dedicated defensive weapon and having some training & experience in using good tactics and strategy in various situations ... are all arguably more important than some perceived inherent superiority regarding either "caliber" or "capacity".
Sure, sometimes I've reached for a 7+1, 8+1, 9+1 or 10+1 capacity smallish 9mm or .40 S&W pistol instead of a couple of slightly thicker and heavier .45's with 6+1 & 7+1 capacity ... unless I simply felt like choosing a .45 that day/evening.
However, I often carry one or another 5-shot J-frame, so how concerned do I appear regarding either caliber or capacity?
Training, training, training ... practice, practice, practice.
I voted in neither category in the Poll.
Um, no, it's not. As loaded by the U.S. military, 9mm M882 ammunition utilizes a 112grn FMJ bullet at 1263 fps for 396fpe from a 4-5" barrel. Winchester's 9mm NATO loading uses a 124grn FMJ bullet at 1180fps for 387fpe. A standard 158grn .357 Magnum (standard weight for that caliber) as loaded by Winchester uses either a JSP or JHP with a muzzle velocity of 1235fps for 535fpe from a 4" barrel.
Winchester's 9mm +P+ loadings feature either a 115grn JHP at 1335fps for 455fpe or a 127grn JHP at 1250fps for 441fpe both from a 4" barrel.
9x25 Dillon, as loaded by Double Tap, uses a 90grn JHP at 2100fps for 881fpe, a 95grn FMJ at 2000fps for 844fpe, a 125grn FMJ or JHP at 1700fps for 802fpe, or a 147grn FMJ or JHP at 1495fps for 730fpe. However, since we're comparing oddball cartridges, let me point out that .357 Remington Maximum as loaded by Grizzly Cartridge company uses a 200grn LWNGC at 1675fps for 1283fpe.
Also, there is no common 7.65x26 cartridge. The two most common 7.65mm cartridges are 7.65x17 (the metric designation for .32 ACP) and 7.65x21 (the metric designation for .30 Luger) neither of which are more powerful than a .357 Magnum (the most powerful .32 ACP loading available is Buffalo Bore's 75grn Hardcast loading at 1150fps for 220fpe and the most powerful .30 Luger loading available is Winchester's 93grn FMJ loading at 1220fps for 350fpe)
I think perhaps you were thinking instead of the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge or it's dimensionally similar but less powerful ancestor 7.63 Mauser. The most powerful 7.62 Tokarev loading available is Prvi Partizan's 85grn FMJ which is listed a 1722fps for 560fpe. However, when we examine Prvi's website, we find that their published velocities are from a 250mm barrel, which is roughly 9.8". I am not aware of any common 7.62 Tokarev handgun with a barrel that long (most are 4-5") and I suspect that Prvi Partizan is gearing their velocities towards submachineguns.
Looking at velocities from handgun barrels, we see that Winchester's 7.62 Tokarev loading is listed as an 85grn FMJ at 1645fps for 511fpe. Also, since you said that the round you mentioned was more powerful than any .357 loading, I'd like to point out that Buffalo bore offers a .357 Magnum 125grn JHP at 1700fps for 802fpe.
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_9mm.php
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/full-metal-jacket/Pages/RA9124N.aspx
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/jhp/Pages/RA9115HP.aspx
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9TA.aspx
http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/super-x/jhp/Pages/X3574P.aspx
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_24
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=818300
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=132
http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/super-x/full-metal-jacket/Pages/X30LP.aspx
http://www.prvipartizan.com/search_a.php
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103
Apparently it matters quite a bit to you too as you continued to argue the point.
What you or I would want to get shot with doesn't really have anything to do with what makes a good self-defense handgun. I don't want to get shot with an airsoft gun, but that doesn't mean one would dissuade me from pursuing a particular course of action if I were determined enough. People don't always just give up because they've been shot, sometimes they need to be physically incapacitated and some cartridges and loadings do that better than others.
Well, I don't know of too many people that would argue that a handgun is better than a rifle, though some might argue that there are better rifle cartridges than 5.56x45 NATO. The problem is, a rifle isn't the most practical thing to carry around on your hip or in your pocket on a daily basis which is why we have handguns. You did post in the handgun forum you know. Also, there are some handgun that can match the power of a 5.56 NATO.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54
Please stop attempting to argue with Webley about ballistics. It's like watching Mathew Lillard give Al Pachino tips on acting.
For me, for self defense, I'll take any service or compact handgun in 9mm, .38sp, .357mag, .357sig, .40, .44mag, .454casull, or .45acp without feeling overwhelmingly over or under armed with any.
If I was going somewhere unknown that may or may not be in the wilderness, I'd be taking caliber over capacity, simply because the philosophy of "Aim Careful, Hit Hard" appeals to my nature.
If there are zombies, give me a Kel Tec PMR 30 that functions well with .22WMR and a few 30 round magazines.
But that's on more like a "Case by case" basis.
~LT
For me, for self defense, I'll take any service or compact handgun in 9mm, .38sp, .357mag, .357sig, .40, .44mag, .454casull, or .45acp without feeling overwhelmingly over or under armed with any.
If I was going somewhere unknown that may or may not be in the wilderness, I'd be taking caliber over capacity, simply because the philosophy of "Aim Careful, Hit Hard" appeals to my nature.
If there are zombies, give me a Kel Tec PMR 30 that functions well with .22WMR and a few 30 round magazines.
But that's on more like a "Case by case" basis.
~LT
Someone stated that "it is only the first hit that counts"
I subscribe to the 45, if I plan to stop the threat.
If there are two threats I have 8-10 rounds and hopefully that will be more than enough. If the nearest BG is hit it will probably get the second BG attention and he may withdraw, if not, I will still have more than enough persuaders left
I subscribe to the 45, if I plan to stop the threat.
If there are two threats I have 8-10 rounds and hopefully that will be more than enough. If the nearest BG is hit it will probably get the second BG attention and he may withdraw, if not, I will still have more than enough persuaders left
My carry guns are a Kimber UCII (7+1) and a PM9 (6+1) ... I have a Springer XDm-9 (19+1) but it's not comfortable to carry (for me, anyhow) ... I'd like to have a PM9 sized .45 with 12 or so rounds, but that's not going to happen ... and carrying a reload (which I do for either gun) helps ...
I can see by your post count that you're new, but comments like these are neither constructive nor appreciated. And "caliber wars" is a negative connotation given to people who make blanket and unsupportive comments like these:
...which you may or may not realize are directly contrasting to the OTHER points you've been trying to make stating the apparent insignificance between handgun calibers. So really, all you've been providing is biased, self-contradictory drivel with no math, physics, design examples, or evidence to back it up.
Please ease off on that. It's not going to win you any points around here.
We can have a significant and pointed discussion about the benefits and costs of caliber selection when weighed against the obvious decrease or increase in available capacity without it turning into a "caliber war". Let's try and have a civilized discussion without all of the "Awww jeeze!"-ing.
~LT
I find it literally nauseating that I have to clarify this.
"Bad Guys" are not interested in Math and Physics. <<[WE]>>, the "Good Guys" ARE interested in Math and Physics as useful tools by which to measure our weapons that are designed to be employed for Defense of ourselves and other "Good Guys".
There are no "Bad Guys" on here discussing the usefulness of these tools as a measurement device. Which is a BRIGHT AND SHINY defining reason why the subjects belong here. In this forum. Among the Good Guys. Who use them to a positive end to justify our own choices regarding our safety and the safety of fellow law-abiding citizens.
___________________________________________________
I know what you're doing. No One Here Appreciates It.
Please Stop.
~LT
If this thread is nothing but a silly caliber war, why did you choose to participate in it?
Usually about the time they get shot. Regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks, the laws of math and physics are inescapable. Now matter how much someone thinks "a gun is a gun", their body is still going to react differently when shot with different cartridges. If they didn't, we wouldn't have so many different cartrdiges as we could all just carry a nice little .22 Short.
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