Caliber VS Capacity
- Thread starter DonutGuy
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"You cannot take for granted that 1 hit will incapacitate a perp, look at the Miami shootout and its not just 9mm, there are cases of multiple hits with a 45 and even a 357 that didn't stop a perp."
I think you're incorrect about that, at least about the .357.
As noted, FBI revolvers were loaded with the 158-gr. LSWCHP +P round that FBI had been using for quite a few years, and which has an excellent reputation in actual shootings.
It's believed that Matix was knocked out of the fight by a .38 Special round that hit him in the jaw and knocked him unconscious/senseless for the remainder of the encounter; he never fired another shot. Not exactly what we'd call stopping power, but in this case effective as it totally removed him from the encounter.
The fight was finally stopped by Agent Mireles using a Smith & Wesson Model 19 loaded with the same cartridges.
Although Platt's chest wound (9mm Silvertip is believed to have been ultimately unsurvivable), immediate cause of death for both appears to have been head and spine wounds caused by the .38 Special bullets.
I think you're incorrect about that, at least about the .357.
As noted, FBI revolvers were loaded with the 158-gr. LSWCHP +P round that FBI had been using for quite a few years, and which has an excellent reputation in actual shootings.
It's believed that Matix was knocked out of the fight by a .38 Special round that hit him in the jaw and knocked him unconscious/senseless for the remainder of the encounter; he never fired another shot. Not exactly what we'd call stopping power, but in this case effective as it totally removed him from the encounter.
The fight was finally stopped by Agent Mireles using a Smith & Wesson Model 19 loaded with the same cartridges.
Although Platt's chest wound (9mm Silvertip is believed to have been ultimately unsurvivable), immediate cause of death for both appears to have been head and spine wounds caused by the .38 Special bullets.
This is kind of a loaded question. (No pun intended.) I think it depends on the size and purpose of the gun and the caliber of ammo.
If I lived in s rate that had 10rd magazine capacity than I would most likely opt for 10rds of a larger caliber than a small one if I was using a full size gun. I'd not I would opt for the extra rounds in a 9mm vs 45acp situation. (I don't like .40 so the "happy medium" doesn't make me happy.) Also, in a very light weight gun, such as Kahr PM series, I would go with the higher capacity smaller caliber because of less recoil and faster follow up shots.
If I lived in s rate that had 10rd magazine capacity than I would most likely opt for 10rds of a larger caliber than a small one if I was using a full size gun. I'd not I would opt for the extra rounds in a 9mm vs 45acp situation. (I don't like .40 so the "happy medium" doesn't make me happy.) Also, in a very light weight gun, such as Kahr PM series, I would go with the higher capacity smaller caliber because of less recoil and faster follow up shots.
FoxtrotRomeo
New member
.45 ACP for day to day in town. I like larger rounds. .40 S&W makes me happy too.
9mm is like a "fun round" to me. More pop than a .22 but still cheap enough to buy a good bit of it and mag dump it for giggles at the range.
9mm is like a "fun round" to me. More pop than a .22 but still cheap enough to buy a good bit of it and mag dump it for giggles at the range.
I agree, and its one of the reasons I choose "more better"
Differences between the "major" calibers these days is basically null when comparing realistic ammo types. I'd prefer to still have rounds in the gun when all is said and done, than to have the slide locked back before it was.
Situational Awareness
The answers on this forum that make the most sense are those that talk about the capacity/caliber:situation ratio. Yeah, I know it's not a ratio. There are times, like when I'm tooling around the back yard, up in the woods where I'm not worried about bears, or just looking for something to plink at, that I carry a 9mm Bond Arms derringer. I just got it and can hit very well with it to moderate range (10-15 yards). Before that I had a NAA .22 magnum that I gave to my dad. They're both bad choices when I think I might need one, but they work well enough for the first rule of a gunfight. When I think there's a remote possibility of depending on a gun, I have a .40 S&W XD and my wife has a RIA 1911 that fill the bill better. Then, for most everything else, there's my snubbie 637 powerport in .38. In single action, I'm good out to 50 yards with it, which is more than enough for me.
The answers on this forum that make the most sense are those that talk about the capacity/caliber:situation ratio. Yeah, I know it's not a ratio. There are times, like when I'm tooling around the back yard, up in the woods where I'm not worried about bears, or just looking for something to plink at, that I carry a 9mm Bond Arms derringer. I just got it and can hit very well with it to moderate range (10-15 yards). Before that I had a NAA .22 magnum that I gave to my dad. They're both bad choices when I think I might need one, but they work well enough for the first rule of a gunfight. When I think there's a remote possibility of depending on a gun, I have a .40 S&W XD and my wife has a RIA 1911 that fill the bill better. Then, for most everything else, there's my snubbie 637 powerport in .38. In single action, I'm good out to 50 yards with it, which is more than enough for me.
2damnold4this
New member
I think with the modern ammunition available today, we can get by without sacrificing capacity for effectiveness so long as we stick to service calibers. We don't need to strap a single shot Contender in 30-30 Win in a shoulder holster to have an effective self defense cartridge when .38 Special and 9mm work fine with the right ammunition.
microtech said:
Does that mean the more rounds you have, the more stray bullets will be flying until you hit the intended target?
Practice until you are really really really good because its being a responcible gun owner, and always think of a safer than present situation exit plan
DannySeesUSMC
New member
Being really good on a range is not the same thing as using a firearm against people. In dream land every body who is decent on a range and practices some drills would take out 4 bad guys with only 4 perfectly placed center-mass shots. In real life.....
As a citizen you are going to use a handgun if there are several attackers or one or more with a weapon. Unless it happens on a daily basis and you are some type of legend in the making - you are going to have goofy fingers, little bit of shakes, etc. as a roller-coaster adrenaline rush hits you.
Unless you are going to just stroke it in front of a TV set or projector while watching old action movies, I think the larger capacity is the best bet.
Even well trained LE departments still come in under 40% hit ratio, most around 20%, because it's not the same as a range and you are scared, twitchy, trying to survive.
Most people can not draw a firearm under stress properly let alone take out a group of bad guys one or two shots each....high-capacity firearms were not designed for the other guys who aren't as cool and Godly as you are - they were designed for real life where a bad guy doesn't go down with 2 or 3 shots.
As a citizen you are going to use a handgun if there are several attackers or one or more with a weapon. Unless it happens on a daily basis and you are some type of legend in the making - you are going to have goofy fingers, little bit of shakes, etc. as a roller-coaster adrenaline rush hits you.
Unless you are going to just stroke it in front of a TV set or projector while watching old action movies, I think the larger capacity is the best bet.
Even well trained LE departments still come in under 40% hit ratio, most around 20%, because it's not the same as a range and you are scared, twitchy, trying to survive.
Most people can not draw a firearm under stress properly let alone take out a group of bad guys one or two shots each....high-capacity firearms were not designed for the other guys who aren't as cool and Godly as you are - they were designed for real life where a bad guy doesn't go down with 2 or 3 shots.
I believe this. In almost all CIVILIAN cases of DEFENSE, one will run out of time before one runs out of ammo. I believe the FBI had something called the rule of 3s. Most gun fights happen at a distance of 3 yards or less. They last less than three seconds and fewer than 3 shots are fired.
Placement is key. For most of us, .380/.38 and up w/ half a dozen rounds will due. Just my opinion. If I were to raid a meth lab, I may have a different opinion, but then I would have a 12 gauge.
Peachy
Placement is key. For most of us, .380/.38 and up w/ half a dozen rounds will due. Just my opinion. If I were to raid a meth lab, I may have a different opinion, but then I would have a 12 gauge.
Peachy
What happens when time runs out, the buzzer goes off?
Ill still take the gun thats most likely to have live rounds left in it when its over, regardless what anyones statistics might say. If it only takes three, thats fine. If it takes more than 17, thats fine too. I have reloads.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
My criteria for self-defense handgun ammunition goes like this:
1. Do I have a decent selection of rounds that meet the FBI minimum criteria, such that I can get good defensive ammo from a variety of sources?
2. Which caliber can I afford to train with the most?
Once those two criteria are satisfied, I prefer more capacity to a bigger round since the performance differences between different handgun ammunition that meet the above criteria strike me as pretty marginal.
My reasoning for this is explained in more detail in this post:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428114
1. Do I have a decent selection of rounds that meet the FBI minimum criteria, such that I can get good defensive ammo from a variety of sources?
2. Which caliber can I afford to train with the most?
Once those two criteria are satisfied, I prefer more capacity to a bigger round since the performance differences between different handgun ammunition that meet the above criteria strike me as pretty marginal.
My reasoning for this is explained in more detail in this post:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428114
FoxtrotRomeo
New member
Yup, I'd want to be the door breacher too. At close range it's not wise to mess with the guy with the shotgun. Even then though, placement helps even though you have the advantage of spread.
Amen. I know a vet Marine that doesn't like 9mm but he is quite happy with the .40 S&W
.40 S&W is very nice.
Shotgun spread is largely overrated... you can easily miss. When you do hit it is absolutely devastating. Its equivalent to getting shot with a pistol like 8-15 times in the same spot. Certainly one of the most devastating firearms as far as damage. Part of its fear is the general assumption that you can't miss.
I don't want a round that's too small, and I don't want one that's so big that it reduces capacity significantly.
Sorta middle of the road works just find for me, which equates to a .40 S&W or something similar.
But then on occasion I carry a 5-shot .38 snub; just depends on where I'm headed and what I'm doing.
Daryl
Sorta middle of the road works just find for me, which equates to a .40 S&W or something similar.
But then on occasion I carry a 5-shot .38 snub; just depends on where I'm headed and what I'm doing.
Daryl
handgunchick
New member
Let's make the assumption that you can hit what you're aiming at with a reasonable amount of proficiency. With that in mind, I go 9mm. Good stopping power, cheap to shoot, not too large or too small. Perfect!
There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this as it depends greatly on the individual and his or her unique circumstances. Through careful examination and consideration of my own circumstances, I've determined that my most likely attacker will be a very large (6'+ tall and 250lbs+ in weight) and will most likely act alone or, at most, in pairs. Because of this, a powerful caliber is a more important consideration for me than double-digit capacity. More often than not, my CCW is a .357 or .44 Magnum revolver. However, when I travel to areas where multiple attackers are more likely such as certain parts of large metropolitan areas, I often replace or supplement my normal CCW with a high-capacity 9mm.
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