CA is almost there. Microstamping bill signed into law

WOW...:D... Tooltimey, i just saved the pic of the backward gun....
MAN..that is funny...i will have some fun with that...


Now that Smart Gun...OMG....:eek: I can barely work a computer:)
 
Arnold the Senator

Lest any of you think this is just a California problem, rumor has it that our anti-gun Governator is planning a run for the Senate when he terms out. This way, he can bring his enlightened, Bavarian attitudes home to you all.
 
All part of the plan...

Some have pointed out how easy it is to defeat microstamping. How long before companion legislation makes altering firing pins illegal? Same as altering the serial number on a firearm is now a felony. Between now and 2010 we'll start to see the (now secret) companion bills that will plug the obvious holes in this new law. Cumulative impact will be much worse than what we're looking at now, I'd wager.

As if the total package weren't envisioned by the grabbers from the start!

Hey, where are the entertaining posts telling us: quitwhiningmygodtheskyisfalling;)

(a la Chris Rock's "Bring the Pain" standup routine on "the good side of crack"!)

Couldusealittleentertainmenttoday...
 
Arnold is the ultimate hypocrite. He pumps himself full of steroids, wins several bodybuilding competitions (thanks to the roids), and then preaches to all of us about good health. He makes his fortune off super-violent movies and then turns around and passes anti-gun legislation. He's a republican, and he marries a Kennedy. We should kick his ass back to Europe, where he belongs. It's too bad he didn't die on the operating table when he had his roided out heart valve replaced.
 
easy on the language usage and the ' wishing someone had died ' rant....

This is a public forum. Please review the sticky a the top of the list.


back on topic: any word on which manufacturers are willing to actually produce firearms with micro stamped pins?
 
Ok, I'm willing to give this one some critical thought. So, we put microscopic headstamps on the ends of the firing pins, and that'll help police match casings to guns...

Hmmm....

Ok. I know that the firing pin on my 1911 is basically just a little steel spike. It's a tiny little part that would be pretty easy for any machinist in the world to replicate. So, what prevents the criminal from just making a different firing pin, and substituting it in their gun? It seems to me like the "microscopic" imprints on the firing pins could be filed off with a nail file!

We need someone who knows about gun repair. Is it accurate to say that these microscopic headstamps on the firing pins are so easy to circumvent that they are essentially worthless?

Am I missing something, here?
 
Logic

I think the logic behind the legislation is beautifully clear:

(i) increase the cost of firearm ownership (hopefully out of the hands of many people), and

(ii) arbitrarily change the design and assembly of firearms (hopefully many manufacturers cease selling to the California market).

California's legislature clearly understands that they can control the design of firearms (e.g., loaded chamber indicator, magazine disconnect, microstamping); the only question is with this escalating interference, what will they demand be changed next???
 
Lookit:

1. *IF* this law is a good idea (which it's not), then it obviously makes perfect sense to also make it illegal to alter or swap firing pins in any way - that just makes sense to make the law have its (supposed) intended effect - stamping brass at crime scenes for gun ID. In fact, I'd be surprised if the no-altering rule is NOT in the law already... in fact, if it's not already in there, then the legislators need to be horse-whipped for being plenary nincompoops, if they required this technology but made no attempt to stop alterations ("oh sure you can swap out firing pins and defeat the laws stated purpose; no problem there" - does that make sense?).

2. As mentioned the law is not going to work because criminals are just going to take a file and erase the machined imprinting relief from the firing pin face (regardless of whether the gun was purchased by them, borrowed, or stolen). No need to make a replacement pin, although that would work too. A simple file is all that is needed. As mentioned, criminals will have no qualms about violating the microstamping law (assuming filing away the microstamping is even illegal; see #1 above) when they are preparing for a felony (by definition, any crime where a firearm is used in furtherance of it is going to be a felony).

3. Does the law, or does it not, actually require the *chamber* to also imprint, in addition to the firing pin or breechface? If so, then you won't be buying any replacement barrels for your pistol out there, unless and until barrel makers want to add that cost of tooling to make the stamping barrels.

4. As mentioned, the actual hidden purpose is to cause some gun manufacturers to stop selling guns in CA, and to raise the cost of manufacture of the remaining guns, which the makers must pass on to the public - both done to reduce public gun ownership, to help limit the power of and control the sheeple.

5. On technical aspects: Does anyone in the machining/steel/engineering business know just *how much* such re-tooling will cost the manufacturers (and thus the public) in this modern CNC & Cad/Cam age? Because they are going to have to put the full serial # onto the pin - not just the make & model of the firearm - so every pin has to be different - is this going to be cost-prohibitive, as it seems to me it might be? And how do you even get a full serial # onto the tiny firing pin? I can see maybe on the breechface. Also, when a firing pin dents the primer, isn't it going to deform the primer (indent it) in such a way as to make super-tiny impressions unreadable - how you gonna get a messed-up 3-D indentation onto a microscope's plate, which requires a flat surface for reading, IINM.

6. In sum, this law is a disaster for the people's rights, and will do virutually nothing to nothing to help solve crimes (unfortunately).
sheeplesheeplesheepledealwithit
 
In post #14, I asked, "I would think that this will affect handloaders as well. How many times can a case be stamped before the metal becomes unusable?"

Thinking back on this, I'm now thinking it won't effect the brass too much at all... But, with the explosive force of rounds being fired, how long will these microstamps last? I'm not a metallurgist, but I do know that a brass bar can and will mar steel.

Ten rounds? 20? 30?

At which point, will I become a felon for just shooting my gun and erasing the microstamp, thus intentionally defacing the gun?
 
I don't get it... Why doesn't CA simply pass a law making it illegal to commit a crime? Shouldn't that solve allt he problems overnight?

They could then make it illegal to be poor, homeless, hungry, overweight, ugly, mean, have poor taste in art...
 
5. On technical aspects: Does anyone in the machining/steel/engineering business know just *how much* such re-tooling will cost the manufacturers (and thus the public) in this modern CNC & Cad/Cam age? Because they are going to have to put the full serial # onto the pin - not just the make & model of the firearm - so every pin has to be different - is this going to be cost-prohibitive, as it seems to me it might be? And how do you even get a full serial # onto the tiny firing pin? I can see maybe on the breechface. Also, when a firing pin dents the primer, isn't it going to deform the primer (indent it) in such a way as to make super-tiny impressions unreadable - how you gonna get a messed-up 3-D indentation onto a microscope's plate, which requires a flat surface for reading, IINM.
Click to expand...

I am with a company that does very high volume Swiss turning... This type of change in the manufacturing of a firing pin will increase cost by over a factor of 100 at the absolute minimum for a machined part. You have a part now that probably has a cylce time of 20 seconds and can be made on old type cam operated machines which were paid for long ago and have minimal maintenence. To make these things with a micro engraved serial number, differrent for EVERY SINGLE PIN, you are going to slow the process down to a crawl, limit the machines that can make it to next to nothing, and add a level of tracking to each part which is incomprehensible. Part cost alone goes through the roof, added handling is also enormous. Throughput is next to nothing, meaning most makers just won't do it for the limited "more trouble than it is worth" CA.

I would guess machining/purchase cost for a normal 1911 firing pin to be around 25 cents at 100,000 pieces. That is for normal material, not impossibilium, unobtainium or any other gee whiz alloy. We, with over 1,000 machines at our disposal for high volume turning do not have the capability to make a serialized pin like the one discussed. If I had to guess I would put the cost of a serialized firing pin at $20 -$25 each MINIMUM. The problem is nobody could make them in volume.

I guess you could make the raw pin and then add the SN with a secondary procedure... it is still going to be fantastically expensive and very limited! No way you would make the pin from scratch as a machined part with the SN and you would need a different mold for every single MIM part (if you could get MIM to work for a pin) meaning it would be even more expensive than machining...

This is like some sort of nightmare a customer would send to me.
 
Personally, I think rather than fight the technology, our efforts should be directed at the laws and the manufacturers.

For example, we have centered our attention on defeating the mechanics on the firing pins. That's the least of our worries.

Over forty years ago, and probably a decade before that, the technology of the time had "micro dots." These were tiny fly-spec dots that cold war spies could attach to anything, and they contained photographs and other info needed to smuggle it out past an enemy.

In fact, the 1966 Peck/Loren film "Arabesque" uses just such a technique for a plot premise.

Your phone has a GPS tracker built in, there are numerous urban legends about the money you carry, and each of us are already in numerous government computers and search engines.

Heck, if you leave a drop of spittle at a crime scene they have your DNA.

But all of this technology is worthless if the law gets repealled or market-place pressure has the manufacturers re-thinking the issue.

Do you remember the backlash SW got for giving into the government program on gun locks?
 
Do you remember the backlash SW got for giving into the government program on gun locks?
Click to expand...

This is the key.

Pre-lock, S&W guns sold for almost twice what a Ruger sold for. They were held in higher esteem, and were expected to hold a higher level of craftsmanship.

When the lock was introduced, Ruger guns increased in retail value faster than S&W guns did. Rugers now cost almost as much as S&W's. I bought my 4" redhawk for $625, and a comparable 4" 629 was selling right next to it for $650. I sure didn't buy it, and cost wasn't a factor there. :p

Folks, we need to destroy any gun company that caters to this hogwash. If Springfield folds to this, we buy Kimbers, Dan Wessons, or STI's. If Glock folds to this, we buy XD's and Steyrs.

And if they ALL do? We buy used guns, and LOTS of spare parts.

Plastic-and-MIM-guns should not cost upwards of $1000, but that is exactly what we will get if every piece of every gun has to be individually tracked. Aftermarket customizers (i.e. small businesses) will be severely hurt and might go out of business as a result of this, if the trend continues. Imagine a $700 Hi-Point.

That's all you'll have, if a Sig/Glock/Springer/Smith/Ruger costs upwards of $1500 due to all the onerous tracking and other costs to comply with these types of laws.
 
The Tourist,

I think you are saying you are in favor of developing this technology, coorect me if I am wrong, and do not want market pressure or political action to stop it.

I understand your desire to push technology forward but you are making a very basic mistake and comparing apples to oranges. People have seen the fantastic leaps made in elextronics and automatically think "We can make anythign tiny!" That is not the case though. The incredible increases in processing power for computers and technology in chip manufacturing has been amazing but that is NOT machining. Making metal objects in very small sizes is a completely different matter. TRUST ME!!! We produce miniature medical pins that are .012" on the max diameter and have multiple features. We produce tens of thousands of them. You get to a certain point where machining is NOT possible anymore and we are pretty much there now. Material removal processes can only go so small before you will just tear up the item you are making.

There are technologies like LIGA that can make things in volume that are so small it would amaze you. They though are limited in STRENGTH. You are not able to make a firing pin by such methods.

I get mad scientists all the time with the latest and greatest miniature part. Sometimes they have even had a couple made. They then ask me to produce it and the answer is almost always NO. You can make anything in a handful but try making 20,000 or even a million! It just does not happen.

Having made very very small parts for use in those spy tech doohickeys I can tell you, they pay. They pay ALOT!!! They pay more than any private company would, even medical companies.

Pushing the limit of manufacturing technology is important but it is equally important to understand the feasibility of such actions and where the real physical limits exist. Machined parts are not CPUs. CPUs have been around for a handfull of decades and we are still early on the learning curve where each new discovery yeilds a huge benifit. Machining technology is much further along. The leaps made in production metal cutting are more like small hops than the giant strides at this point. Other "metal forming" technologies have a host of limitations that also must be considerred.
 
Musketeer said:
The Tourist, I think you are saying you are in favor of developing this technology
Click to expand...

Not exactly. What I'm saying is that we cannot stop the developing technology--most of which already exists--so it would be better to seek other ways.

Azredhawk44 is indeed correct when he underlines the condition SW suffered. In fact, not only did that folly cost them untold millions of dollars, but they were forced to replace their CEO. As a former financial maven, I can tell you that many more careers were painfully derailed behind the scenes. Lives were ruined, and managers lost the work of a lifetime.

I suggest we send the same message. You might not be able to stop the alteration of a firing pin, but you can refuse to buy the firearms that use it.

Behind the scenes, gun manufacturers will call the Governator's office. And there will be additional meetings.
 
This is basically a total gun ban for California. After all it is up to the gun manufactures to develop microstamping technology. I don't think they will. I think they will tell California to take a flying leap. Do you really think companies like Taurus are going to put firing pins in their guns that cost more to develop than the the rest of the gun? It is cheaper to just quit selling there and let all the California residents acquire their guns illegally out of state.
 
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