Spotted Owl
New member
A more likely scenario would have me as a customer in a 7-Eleven caught in the crossfire between an armed robber and a bunch of cops in spray-and-pray mode.
Bystander Killed by Officers...
- Thread starter K80Geoff
- Start date
Rich Lucibella
Staff
S.O.-
Your preset bias is showing.
Rich
Spotted Owl
New member
What bias would that be? I'm not anti-gun (I'm strongly pro-gun). I'm not anti-cop. I just feel that sometimes cops value their own saftey more than they value the safety of bystanders.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Are you kidding??? Of COURSE I value my safety more than that of bystanders!!!
Spotted Owl
New member
Do you value it so much that you'd open up on a suspect and empty your magazine at him even though there was a crowd of people standing behind him?
NSO_w/_SIG
New member
"unjustifed"?
What is more justifiable for a cop to use deadly force than to have a gun drawn on him and be fired upon?
What is more justifiable for a cop to use deadly force than to have a gun drawn on him and be fired upon?
TheeBadOne
Moderator
TBO
I'm just assuming here but I suspect that the lady moved toward her daughter and most likely the sudden movment caught the eye of an officer, who didn't know if she 1) had a gun or 2) was going for a gun and thus she became an agresser (since the LEO's only have a split second to decide).
This is the fault of the adults in the apartment. They are the ones that put these kids at risk.
I'm not going to go with any side, I'm sitting on the fence with this one.
Wayne
This is the fault of the adults in the apartment. They are the ones that put these kids at risk.
I'm not going to go with any side, I'm sitting on the fence with this one.
Wayne
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Put it this way: If I was on a domestic violence run and the man of the argument threw a grenade in the room, I'd likely throw the woman of the argument on top of the grenade. As far as your example, don't know...I'd have to be there. If I thought I needed to fire a full magazine, I'd fire a full magazine.
These police were called to the scene of an "armed" robbery. So I would assume that Mr. Nunn would have been considered armed and dangerous....
so even before they went to the apartment the stress levels were already rising
The officers felt thier lives were threatened when Mr. Nunn bought up the firearm. He had it concealed in his lap. Now if I am one of those officers I would be wanting to go home to my family on two feet not be carried out in a body bag....
This whole situation arose because of Mr. Nunns actions not the police.
I feel sad for the little girl and the dead mother....
However, if I had a child that was being placed in danger due to another person in the household the first thing I would have done is remove the child and call the police myself.
In a situation like this the adrenilan and stress is probably top notch so between three officers eleven shots is not hard to imagine...
3 to 4 apiece is not hard to do in under a few seconds...especially in a semi-auto.
In America the reasonable man standard is ususally applied..its easy to read the full story after the incedent and armchair quarterback
Police have to go to perform thier duty in situation like this...we dont
If you start convivting every police person when they are involved in an incident and perform thier duty in good faith..pretty soon you will see less police on the beat.
In London this happend with the Armed Bobbies........they got a bad deal. next day 120 out of around 400 Officers turned thier guns in.
so even before they went to the apartment the stress levels were already rising
The officers felt thier lives were threatened when Mr. Nunn bought up the firearm. He had it concealed in his lap. Now if I am one of those officers I would be wanting to go home to my family on two feet not be carried out in a body bag....
This whole situation arose because of Mr. Nunns actions not the police.
I feel sad for the little girl and the dead mother....
However, if I had a child that was being placed in danger due to another person in the household the first thing I would have done is remove the child and call the police myself.
In a situation like this the adrenilan and stress is probably top notch so between three officers eleven shots is not hard to imagine...
3 to 4 apiece is not hard to do in under a few seconds...especially in a semi-auto.
In America the reasonable man standard is ususally applied..its easy to read the full story after the incedent and armchair quarterback
Police have to go to perform thier duty in situation like this...we dont
If you start convivting every police person when they are involved in an incident and perform thier duty in good faith..pretty soon you will see less police on the beat.
In London this happend with the Armed Bobbies........they got a bad deal. next day 120 out of around 400 Officers turned thier guns in.
F350Lawman
New member
*FACT*
These "officers" are not being held to the SAME standards as any other citizen.
Why are "officers" so damn *afraid* of one set of laws for everyone?
We're trying to hold soldiers in Iraq to civilian rules...see how BADLY that is effecting their efforts. Soldiers are in incredible sitiuations, so we give them leeway...cops are also in some incredible situations so they get too , get judged differently when they react to the multitude of situations that many of you can't imagine and most will surely never see.
As far as shooting and exposing bystanders to risk, you try to minimize it but you can't just always NOT SHOOT because you MIGHT hit someone. It's a dangerous business and these cops took action that resulted in a "bystanders" death. Could any of you have done better? Maybe. Could you have done worse? Maybe. I am not about to freak out when one of our soldiers kills an innocent while entering a residence...nor am I going to start pointing fingers here.
MY PRIORITIES:
Go home to be a father and husband to my family
Protect my partner
Protect the victim/bystander
Get the bad guy
*Now that doesn't mean that like most other LEOs I haven't exposed myself to plenty of risk to protect the citizenry, but a cop who doesnt, as a general rule of thumb protect himself first.....often gets a fancy funeral.
P.S. When I was younger and single these may have been in different order. Any cop with a family has the number one priority and duty to go home to them...period
These "officers" are not being held to the SAME standards as any other citizen.
Why are "officers" so damn *afraid* of one set of laws for everyone?
We're trying to hold soldiers in Iraq to civilian rules...see how BADLY that is effecting their efforts. Soldiers are in incredible sitiuations, so we give them leeway...cops are also in some incredible situations so they get too , get judged differently when they react to the multitude of situations that many of you can't imagine and most will surely never see.
As far as shooting and exposing bystanders to risk, you try to minimize it but you can't just always NOT SHOOT because you MIGHT hit someone. It's a dangerous business and these cops took action that resulted in a "bystanders" death. Could any of you have done better? Maybe. Could you have done worse? Maybe. I am not about to freak out when one of our soldiers kills an innocent while entering a residence...nor am I going to start pointing fingers here.
MY PRIORITIES:
Go home to be a father and husband to my family
Protect my partner
Protect the victim/bystander
Get the bad guy
*Now that doesn't mean that like most other LEOs I haven't exposed myself to plenty of risk to protect the citizenry, but a cop who doesnt, as a general rule of thumb protect himself first.....often gets a fancy funeral.
P.S. When I was younger and single these may have been in different order. Any cop with a family has the number one priority and duty to go home to them...period
big daddy 9mm
New member
I think that citizins and leo should be treated the same with in reason
I hate to hear about some stupid cop that is triger happy and blows soemeone away unjustly and gets away with it. you know what is the thing is consistensy.
I could care less what cops could get away with as long as we could do it to.
I hate to hear about some stupid cop that is triger happy and blows soemeone away unjustly and gets away with it. you know what is the thing is consistensy.
I could care less what cops could get away with as long as we could do it to.
I have just one question for the ones who think the LEO's overreacted... what would you have done, please think before you answer, in the same situation?
Instead of bashing the LEO's, maybe we should think this through.
I firmly believe, with the information that the LEO's had, and most importantly, the BG having a gun, bb or not, prompted the actions that were taken.
And how many of us are such a great shot that we can put all shots on target, while being distracted, and under the stress of having a gun pointed at you?
Wayne
Instead of bashing the LEO's, maybe we should think this through.
I firmly believe, with the information that the LEO's had, and most importantly, the BG having a gun, bb or not, prompted the actions that were taken.
And how many of us are such a great shot that we can put all shots on target, while being distracted, and under the stress of having a gun pointed at you?
Wayne
I'd submit that there is insufficient information to support cop bashing/defending or mother bashing, which is the other trend going on.
She was an idiot for being in the same room with that guy? Wow. Please provide the evidence that he had "criminal" stamped on his forehead. I've met more than a few people whom I didn't realize were criminals at the time.
She was scum for having her child on the couch at 4 a.m.? Didn't realize that a child might have fallen asleep (they might have all been asleep before the cops showed up). I've seen that happen myself.
The cops had to go in? Really? They had to confront the guy right then? They couldn't have arranged a confrontation when he was outside the apartment? They just had to go in when they knew there was at least one non-suspect in the area.
Everybody's reacting with their own knee jerk reactions.
She was an idiot for being in the same room with that guy? Wow. Please provide the evidence that he had "criminal" stamped on his forehead. I've met more than a few people whom I didn't realize were criminals at the time.
She was scum for having her child on the couch at 4 a.m.? Didn't realize that a child might have fallen asleep (they might have all been asleep before the cops showed up). I've seen that happen myself.
The cops had to go in? Really? They had to confront the guy right then? They couldn't have arranged a confrontation when he was outside the apartment? They just had to go in when they knew there was at least one non-suspect in the area.
Everybody's reacting with their own knee jerk reactions.
Buzz,
I agree with you there. I'm just trying to look at both sides and maybe get some feedback to what others would have done if they had been the LEO's.
As I posted on page 2 or so, me, I don't know. I have seen times where the abuse by some authority is visible but on some, it's hard to really be able to say anything because of too many factors.
As for not knowing if someone is or isn't a criminal, that's true. Many here would think me a criminal that just hasn't been caught yet (at a state level) so one never knows when your name may come up on a "list".
I guess they (the LEO's) didn't wait because this was an "armed criminal" call so they didn't know if he was still a threat, going to become a threat again, etc.. And I'm sure that they didn't know that he had company at the time (assuming that the LEO's couldn't see inside the place due to closed blinds, second floor, etc.).
As for the child being up at that of night, yes, many things could have prompted that (nightmare, not a school night (I used to stay up as long as I could), went to sleep on the couch and was awaken, etc..).
This is where I wanted to steer the thread, so it would be a thoughtful process instead of a "us vs. them" bash all.
Wayne
I agree with you there. I'm just trying to look at both sides and maybe get some feedback to what others would have done if they had been the LEO's.
As I posted on page 2 or so, me, I don't know. I have seen times where the abuse by some authority is visible but on some, it's hard to really be able to say anything because of too many factors.
As for not knowing if someone is or isn't a criminal, that's true. Many here would think me a criminal that just hasn't been caught yet (at a state level) so one never knows when your name may come up on a "list".
I guess they (the LEO's) didn't wait because this was an "armed criminal" call so they didn't know if he was still a threat, going to become a threat again, etc.. And I'm sure that they didn't know that he had company at the time (assuming that the LEO's couldn't see inside the place due to closed blinds, second floor, etc.).
As for the child being up at that of night, yes, many things could have prompted that (nightmare, not a school night (I used to stay up as long as I could), went to sleep on the couch and was awaken, etc..).
This is where I wanted to steer the thread, so it would be a thoughtful process instead of a "us vs. them" bash all.
Wayne