Bystander Killed by Officers...

K80Geoff

New member
Really sad example of "Suicide by Cop" gone wrong:

http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/printerFriendly.cfm?brd=2185&dept_id=415898&newsid=14600302

05/27/2005
Mom died saving girl
By Brian Clark and Josh Brodesky STAFF WRITERs
Erin Dermody was killed trying to protect her 6-year-old daughter.
The 40-year-old mother died in a shooting involving three city police officers that was ruled justified by the Lackawanna County District Attorney's office Thursday.
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Early Tuesday morning the three officers, whose names the city is withholding for privacy reasons, opened fire on Edward Nunn, 33, after he shot at them with a pellet gun that resembled a 9 mm semiautomatic gun, District Attorney Andy Jarbola said.

The officers had been responding to an armed robbery at the Convenient Food Mart, 1003 Prescott Ave. that occurred about 3:30 a.m. and was the second armed robbery Mr. Nunn allegedly committed that morning.

The store's owner Kushal Pal directed the three officers to an apartment at 1429 Ash St. after he spotted Mr. Nunn with Rosemarie Johnson, a former store employee and the apartment's tenant.

About 4:15 a.m., Ms. Johnson let the officers into the apartment where they found Mr. Nunn with his hands in his lap, sitting on a couch across from them, Mr. Jarbola said.

Ms. Dermody and her daughter sat on a separate couch a few feet away. After letting the officers into the apartment, Ms. Johnson sat on a seat on the other side of Mr. Nunn. Ms. Johnson's teenage child was also in the apartment.

Police ordered Mr. Nunn to show his hands, Mr. Jarbola said. He moved his hands and pointed the pellet gun at the officers.

Police drew their weapons.

Within seconds, Mr. Nunn shot the pellet gun and the officers responded, firing 11 times, killing Ms. Dermody with a shot to the leg and striking Mr. Nunn six times in the head, face, hand, stomach and leg, Mr. Jarbola said.

Although it is unclear if her daughter would have been shot, Ms. Dermody attempted to shield her from the bullets, Mr. Jarbola said.

"That was her intention at least," he said. "Covering for this little girl on the couch, and in the incident she got shot in the back of the leg. Unfortunately she got hit in the femoral artery and bled to death."

Mr. Jarbola said police officers are justified in using lethal force whenever they think their lives are in danger, and he said the pellet gun has a striking resemblance to an actual 9 mm semiautomatic.

"These are split second decisions that are made in rapid succession in a dim lit area," said Ray Hayes, the city's public safety director. Weapons are only fired when officers are in a position of fear of serious injury or death. They fire their weapons to stop the action. That's the way it's looked at. That the training mode that they're taught."

Mr. Jarbola said Mr. Nunn's alleged actions precipitated the fatal shooting and his office is considering filing a charge of involuntary manslaughter against him.

"The actions of Mr. Nunn caused this particular incident, and as a result of his action Erin Dermody died," he said.
 
This Mr. Nunn was hit six times - some of which were hits to the head, face, and stomach and he is alive? What caliber were these guys shooting? They must've been just grazing shots that caught him in the head and face. That lady was unlucky. Too bad.
 
Sounds like another case of police "spray and pray" to me.
Where you there?
confused.gif
 
I'm from the area (NEPA) also. As far as I know this guy is still alive. It's a terrible thing when an inocent(the child) is injured or put into harms way. As the report stated, the guy is accused of two resent robberies, with a weapon. Real or not it's still a weapon. How was the cops supposed to know it was a bb gun. Also, being a man of worldly veiws, I find it difficult to beleive that the mother didn't know or have an idea of how this low-life made his living. What was she doing with this jerk. Why was her child alowed to be there with him. As far as I'm concerned it's child endangerment.It's too bad she had to die for her folly, but it could have been worse. The child or the police involved could have been hurt. It seems that we are having a bit of a crime thing out here in our area. A major drug bust related to the ny and nj crowds was just made this week. We have more people in heroin programs than we due alcohol programs, a fact!! Our police depts are trying to crackdown on this garbage, and I for one support them. This wasn't spray and pray, this was an attempt to rid our community of the vermin that would have their way with all of us. Again , it's too bad that people have to learn the hard way, but the police are looking out for MY wellbeing and that of MY family. Good job men ,stay safe and God bless you.
kid
 
Yeah, I am usually one to be quick to condemn cops when they screw up, and sometimes you see some bonehead stuff, but this looks like it was strictly an unfortunate incident. I doubt there was anything at all they could have done better.

Just for once I would like to see the woman's family sue the guy who pulled the gun in the first place, as it is his fault for escalating the situation in the first place.
 
Theebadone, according to the article she was on a separate couch several feet away. Do you consider several (let's say 2) feet of lateral error to be acceptable at a range of 10yds or less? Would you say that's a fair estimate of the distance in this case?

Just because an officer is justified in using lethal force doesn't mean lethal force can be applied to anything in the room without consequences. What are the chances of a successful civil lawsuit, if not a criminal charge of negligent homicide, if a chl-carrying citizen shot a bystander who was several feet away at same-room distance?

I don't know if it's the cops' fault. Given the training requirements of most departments (not to say some officers don't do more), maybe this is to be expected. There ought to be _some_ change, though. Sadly, there probably won't be, because a change in training would open the door to lawsuits against the department. "If training was adequate, why the change?"
 
"Theebadone, according to the article she was on a separate couch several feet away. Do you consider several (let's say 2) feet of lateral error to be acceptable at a range of 10yds or less? Would you say that's a fair estimate of the distance in this case?"

Lots of metal in most couches. Ricochet isn't out of the realms of possibility.
 
Theebadone, according to the article she was on a separate couch several feet away. Do you consider several (let's say 2) feet of lateral error to be acceptable

Maybe next time, the cops should all stand single file and shoot at him. One cop kneeling, one crouching and one standing, instead of in a possible half-moon arrangement. Then they could give a sequential order to fire so the situation isn't so hectic: "Front rank; FIRE!, Middle rank; FIRE; Back rank; FIRE!" Or, they could take him to the range where there's a nice backstop before letting him have it.
 
I can't believe the woman wasn't smart enough to remove her child (and herself) from a potentially dangerous situation. You can't tell me that she didn't know he a.) had a fake gun, or b.) intended to resist arrest. Either way, a parent with room-temperature IQ would have figured out that the police were not coming to offer cookies and milk, and that the situation could very well turn violent.

She was a complete dumbass for sticking around with a little child during what any reasonable person would expect to be a violent confrontation. The cops are not to blame for anything except maybe lacking marksmanship, but things can get wonky when the adrenaline goes up.
 
hitting someone on a seperate couch? if they were in an apartment 10 yards might even be a stetch. not to say there wasnt a ricochet but it sounds like very bad shooting to me. suppose they picked a spot to shoot or just a general mass shot? not defending the guy, if he pointed a gun at cops he should have known he was gonna get shot.
 
i never thought of that. it would be interesting to see what the apartment is like. i just assumed a couch on one wall and another one at a 90 degree angle to it, like an L.
 
OK, You're in a confined space. The BG is in front of you. He makes a move with a firearm in his lap. He raises the firearm and shoots. What are YOU doing? What's going on in YOUR mind? Now someone else in this room makes a sudden move. Remember, you have a BG already making life threatening moves on you at the same time. Does this person have a weapon? You are being shot at..at this very moment. Is she armed, is she shooting at you also? Yes /no. Hurry up your life depends on it. I can't begin to imagine the pressure.This wasn't some senario game in some shooting camp on tv. This was a real situation with all the pucker-power you can imagine. Remember, that lady made moves the same time the perp did. In this case, I'm giving the benifit of the doubt to the police.
kid
 
isnt there something about identifying your target? i think a gun would be easy to spot before you pulled the trigger. not a cop, never been shot at (on purpose). just asking a question
 
Imagine this...

A typical apartment setting with one couch along the wall under the front window and couch #2 is at a 90* (90-degree) angle along the perpendicular wall. When you enter the suspect is sitting near the "turn" of the "L" formed by the two couches. The fatally shot woman is sitting on Couch #2 near the turn of the "L" -- different couch -- with her daughter next to her.

Stepping in, you turn to the right and the suspect is sitting there calmly. His body position is 90* to you, but the woman is facing directly towards you with her daugher on her right side (your left).

At the critical moment, the suspect pulls out a "gun", pointing it at you. He may also be moving (forward) off the couch. In less than 1 second he puts himself between you and the woman, just as you fire -- double tap drill -- just as she also turns to protect her daughter. Your partner fires and suspect's motion allows your #2 shot to slide past into the woman's thigh.

Bad shooting? Only in the sense that the officer who's round hit the woman did not (a)think about his line of fire before shooting -or (b)didn't have the chance to move or react (i.e. caught "dead" to rights), -or (c)did not anticipate the sudden movement of the suspect and the consequences of his line of fire changing -or (d)did not anticipate his partner's shot causing the suspect to move in an unpredictable way that allowed the errant shot.

There are too many variables here and the dynamics of the situation do not permit the officers to analyze every possible outcome while simultaneously reacting fast enough to save their own lives.

Tragic? Yes. A child is motherless now. But what kind of mother was she? If she's hanging out with people who have criminals for friends, I wonder if she has her own record. Or is a substance (ab)user. Insufficient data to tell.
 
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