BW3's "no gun" signs: Are they enforcible?

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I don't even get why you care if the signs are enforceable.

Someone doesn't want you to bring your gun into their business, why would you do it?

Is it because you don't respect what they want on their property?
Is it because you don't respect them for their views?
Is it because your rights are more important then their rights?

For me it's pretty simple, if someone doesn't want me to bring my gun onto their property I have a simple choice, leave it at home, or don't go to their place. To me, anything else is ridiculous and this includes "sneaking it" by them.

While you are showing some respect for other people, you get to have some for yourself.
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This is not meant as a direct attack on your post, but more on the logic.

All civil rights demonstrations involve a certain amount of civil disobedience. As such, people who practice this kind of civil disobedience have made great strides ala Rosa Parks in their cause. While I do not feel the need to organize a sit in on CCW, I like to think that some are sitting in as it were right now which helps these idiots who post signs of ignorance understand that CCW is really ok and a civil right.

To answer the question, basic private property rights are fine... To buy up land and have rules that now carry the force of law is well beyond any intention of private property rights. There are many other private property cases which need challenged too. You can't deny handicap people access, why the can you deny access to Americans(people who respect CCW).
 
Hooters, guns, signs....

As noted, most private business or private property signs do not apply to a legal standard.
If you sat & ate a plate of wings, a cop or patrol deputy won't run up & arrest you in the restaurant. :rolleyes:
The manager or staff may ask you to leave because you were in violation of the "company SOP" not a ordinance/state law.
If anything you might get a written trespass notice saying you can't be on the site for ___ amount of time.
As a licensed security officer, I do trespass notices often due to unrulely or unstable customers, visitors, guests, employees, etc.
People snap, make threats, damage property or become intoxicated. Some leave w/o incident, some make a huge scene. Trespass warnings/notices help expedite any LE actions if or when the subject(s) return. And, yes, there are people who come back. :eek:
I agree too, as a CCW license holder that gun owners shouldn't be treated like dirt & signs should be clearly marked but in my metro area, it's not a big concern.

One popular casual dining place near a local mall had a license holder shoot off his concealed pistol. :rolleyes:
No one was hurt but the guy was embarrassed. Im not sure if the guy was given a trespass warning too but I doubt he went back.
 
BWW was a place we went as a family on a regular basis until they adopted their position as anti gun. We now happily spend our money with their competition.
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That's a fine idea. But its not ENOUGH! In order for any kind of boycott, large or small, to have its full effect, they have to know that they are being boycotted, and why.

I don't know the establishment (none in my area) but it sounds like its part of a chain or franchise system. If so, the local manager is likely not the one who made the decision about the sign, and is not able to do anything about it, regardless of his/her personal feelings on 2nd Amend rights.

If I were you, I would go back to BWW, take my whole family (and as many "relatives" as you could pack in your party), order the cheapest drink on the menu (qualifies you as a customer), and then ask to see the manager.

Be polite. Don't make any personal attacks or aspersions (no matter how stupid the person seems). Just explain to them that you are a regular customer, tell them how often you ate there with your family (weekly? 6 tmes a month, whatever..) and about how much you spent each time ($40? $25? $125? etc.)

Tell them that they are losing your business (and give them a $ number), and tell them WHY. Don't go off on a "its our right" kind of rant. It is our right, but that won't help.

Just tell them that they are losing $4500 a year (or whatever) from that local franchise because of their no gun policy and their sign. And ONLY for that reason. Ask that the message be sent to their corporate HQ.

And make sure that they know that the loss of revenue is due only to their policy. Also tell them that because of their policy and sign, not just you, but all of your family, and as many friends, relatives, co workers etc., as you can influence will also no longer patronize their establishment. Tell the mgr that, as a former patron, you felt they ought to know why.

You were ok with the place, before, right? TELL THEM THAT, and why you are now no longer going to be a customer.

I know, I keep hammering on this, but its important for our cause. Taking our money elsewhere is important, but they have to know WHY we are taking it elsewhere.

Otherwise, they will just accept any downturn in their business as a general slump, and the no guns policy won't even be thought of as the reason.

The stick is taking your business elsewhere. They have to see the stick, for the threat to have any meaning. If they don't see the stick, all they will know is they got wacked (if they even realize it), but not why.

The carrot is the (implied) "if you change your policy, you get my business back. And all my friends..."

Unless a business is owned/run by an anti gun zealot on a personal campaign, its all about the bottom line. Corporate HQ has a bunch of bean counters telling them the potential financial risks of allowing guns. They want to be safe, but more than that, they want to make money, and not lose any to possible lawsuits, etc. SO, the signs go up, the policy goes in place. They see it as CYA for their business.

Our best counter to their worries over potential losses is to show them actual losses, because of their policy.

And here's the kicker, for every one of us who actually takes the time to explain to them why they are losing us as a customer, there are 10 (25 or 100s) of us who will also be going elsewhere, but not bothering to explain to them why. They need to know that, too.
 
But why ???

On a related issue, why do you think businesses post these signs. What is their motivation? Is it that they are really concerned abut one's safety and if so, shouldn't they post security guards at their doors as opposed to signs. .:confused:

Personally I feel it's because they are trying to please the anti-gun folks or it's part of their CYA program. Aren't they being somewhat disingenuous, by posting these signs? .. :confused:

Be Safe !!!
 
I believe 99% post these signs because they don't have a side on the issue. I think smart business owners have a smart solution when this issue comes up.

I think they try to ride the fence. Like see here mr gun nut, we chose to put this crap sign over here where it is hard to see and blends into the window, besides, we're not calling the police on a paying customer.(we had complaints, corporate wanted it, the manager's crazy, etc)

Then they tell the anti-gun jackwad....over here is the sign it will keep all guns out of our business like a magic halo....now, can I get you some wings and beer(under breath...dumba...)
 
That's a fine idea. But its not ENOUGH! In order for any kind of boycott, large or small, to have its full effect, they have to know that they are being boycotted, and why.
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It's not a boycott(it's a personal choice) and we did write corporate a letter telling them why we would no longer spend our money in their establishment. The letter did not have our personal info nor did it have a return address. The only way we will ever return is with a public policy change. My comment wasn't intended to be used as a rallying cry. Merely as an option.
 
The stick is taking your business elsewhere. They have to see the stick, for the threat to have any meaning. If they don't see the stick, all they will know is they got wacked (if they even realize it), but not why.


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Hits the nail on the head.

If we decide not to patronize a business due to 'the sign', we should Always,Always,Always politely inform the owner or manager of our reason.

I had some cards made up probably 6-7 years ago.

The cards states:

[ That I believe in the Consitution, am not a felon, have past a background check by LE in order to rec'v my ccw.
You(the establishment posting the sign) know these things about me. That's a lot more info. then you know about your other patrons.

Due to this being an unfriendly gun establishment with no means of securing my safety, unfortunately, I have take my business elsewhere and will do my best to insure other ccw'ers know of your position and encourage them to do the same. ]

My name and phone # is on the card as well.

We don't see a lot of new 'no gun' signs posted around here anymore but when Ohio first legalized cc, many signs went up. I passed out several dozen cards back then and to my surprise, did get a few return phone calls from bus. owners/mgrs. Mostly small business's.

The end of the conversation always went something like this,

" Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day to call. It shows you care about your customers. I would love to continue coming to your place of business. But I have to refuse to do so as long as your sign is posted."

My dad was the same way. For those that are familiar with Bobby Layman Cadillac/GMC on Rt 33, a very small no gun sign at a salemans office door window cost Layman a very long time, loyal customer and a sale on another new caddy. Dad had been to Laymans a couple three times negotiating on the car and just never saw the small sign prior to his last trip there. He was there to sign the final papers when he saw it.
Oooops...there went that deal.

The salesman reached across the desk the paperwork for dad to sign and dad never moved from his chair. He calmly told the salesman that he would not be buying the car due to the gun sign in his window and he pointed to the sign. The salesman didn't know at first what dad was talking about and dad re-pointed at the sign and said, "your no gun sign". The salesman and I both about fell out of our chairs. The salesman cause he didn't believe dad was serious...me cause I had not seen the sign till then. Unlike the salesman, I knew he was serious.

Due to principle , Layman couldn't have given him the car after that.

Dad told the salesman he wanted to speak to the owner(Bobby Laymans son) but was told that he was out of the state on business.

He went up the road to Bob McDorman, bought one and on his way back to the house, pulled in Laymans, got the GM and showed him asking the GM to have the owner call him when he got in town.

Understanding, this did not put Laymans out of business or anything. They are still there going strong. But the owner of Laymans called here at the house(dad lived with us) insuring there are no longer gun signs at his dealership and in the future would dad reconsider and again become a loyal customer again.
Never happened!

What did happen is the gun signs came down at Layman's.
 
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That's a fine idea. But its not ENOUGH! In order for any kind of boycott, large or small, to have its full effect, they have to know that they are being boycotted, and why.
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Why? Why must your boycott have any more impact then you not doing business with whoever, for whatever reason?

I actually know the answer here, it's a test :rolleyes:

It's because you want them to change. In fact, are you not demanding they change? Are you not telling them that you are rallying the troops to ruin them financially because they choose to exercise their rights just like you want to exercise yours?

Think it through. Why is it not enough just to take what you value elsewhere where you are welcome?
 
Where's the carrot? Whats the point of them taking signs down if you're still never going to go there?

I'm not going to buy a car from you because of a sign totally unrelated to cars.

Oh, you took the sign down, well I'm still not buying anything from you. :confused:

I don't see the issue either way. They don't want guns in their store... Don't take them there. It is really that simple. You are not so special that your rights supercede the owner's and/or anyone elses.
 
Really the question was do they carry the weight of the law.... Which it's been answered that in Ohio, it seems it does...

In Texas that sign is meaningless to a licensed gun carrier
 
I am from Texas, was born and raised there.

In Texas that sign is meaningless to a licensed gun carrier
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I was taught different. I was taught that a person's business is like their home. My dad owned his own business, he did business with other businessmen.

I was taught if someone doesn't want you to do something on their property, as a guest, you should respect that.

I was not taught to consult local laws and ordinances as to the legal weight of the owner's wishes.
 
Texas concealed handgun laws are very specific on what signage applies to concealed handgun license holders....

There are very few no gun signs in Texas anyway... But the ones that count, are 51% that's the big one and the 30.06

If a business doesn't like a model citizen crossing its doors, then I will take my money elsewhere... I don't like the people that hang out at BWW anyway and really don't care for BWW food ...

It's all a moot point because in Ohio the question has been answered...

I can carry my pistol into the Capitol building in Austin... I can bypass metal detectors with my card...

So I think I can safely eat at a restaurant without causing mayhem...
 
It still comes back to the point of doing business and enriching your enemy and why you would want to for something as mundane as wings and beer. Tell them you are no longer going there, tell then why and make sure all of your friends do the same - things like this only work when there is a huge movement and the corporate bean counters see real dollar losses
 
I don't see the issue either way. They don't want guns in their store... Don't take them there. It is really that simple.
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You are correct. It really is that simple.
It is every bit their right to post the signs. It is every bit my right to spend my $ where I choose. And since it is a place of business open to the public in which the owner/workers depend on my $ to stay open, this means I can walk in , give my card to the owner and politely explain why I'm doing business with his/her competitor.

At that point, he is free to politely tell me to go pound sand , talk about the sign or say nothing.

You are not so special that your rights supercede the owner's and/or anyone elses
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That's where you and I differ. I AM special enough that my rights mean something to me. And I'll politely stand up for mine. My rights also mean more to me then materialistic things that I can just as easily go down the street to a gun friendly place and purchase. If I feel my rights are being trampled, you don't have to ask me to leave, I go on my own. Will you?

Again,
Owner posts sign in an establishment that I frequent.
I don't like sign.
I'm not going back.
Will politely tell owner /manager my reasons.
I have that right.
As a business person, the owner has the right to know why I won't be back to support his/her lively hood.

This no more then communication between the owner and I. I know where he stands, he knows where I stand. Nobody's mad.

Now if you can conjure up out of that exchange of communication/actions where I think I'm so special you must be Houdini or you simply don't know how to communicate with people in a civil way.

It's not really brain surgery here!:rolleyes:
 
funny anti gun sign video....

Fox News ran a item about a clever pro gun PSA video about how stupid & pointless the no guns signs are towards preventing real violent crime.
I'm not sure where it is online, but its worth viewing.

Like I posted, I highly doubt you'll be tossed thru a glass window like Axel Foley in the hit comedy film; Beverly Hills Cop.
I agree too. Don't be obnoxious. Just pay your bill & leave.
If you got way off the bend, a citizen or sworn LE officer could report you to the state agency or LE office, then you'd lose your CCW.

Don't forget what James Yeager of Tactical Response went through with the TN officials.

CF
 
Why? Why must your boycott have any more impact then you not doing business with whoever, for whatever reason?

I actually know the answer here, it's a test

It's because you want them to change. In fact, are you not demanding they change? Are you not telling them that you are rallying the troops to ruin them financially because they choose to exercise their rights just like you want to exercise yours?

Think it through. Why is it not enough just to take what you value elsewhere where you are welcome?
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First off, the situation I was discussing is where a business that you patronize did not previously have a no gun policy, and has now instituted one.

This is a different situation from a business that has always had a no gun policy.

Yes, I'd like them to change (or change back in this case). But I am not demanding that they change. I am not demanding that my right to bear arms has precedence on their property. All I am doing is trying to educate them about the consequences (intended and unintended) of their decision.

Simply taking my business where I am welcome does not give the place where I used to be welcome the opportunity to learn anything.

Without full information it is difficult to make the best decision. I think that most places that put in a no gun policy have only been given the potential risks of allowing guns, and have not considered the other factors. One of which is losing the business of customers who disagree with the policy.

They are free to make any decision they believe wise, and I will respect their policies.

If, for example their risk dept tells them they could lose $100K to legal costs from a gun incident in their establishment(s) and a no gun policy will prevent this, and that's all the information they get, then its a no brainer, right? A no gun policy goes in.

Now say, some time later, they find business down $10k a month, and nothing else, no change in gun policy would be considered. But if (former) customer feedback tells them that at least $6k of that $10K is due to their dislike of the no gun policy, then I think a prudent business would at least re-examine the matter. I would. Potential risk vs. actual loss is an important consideration, I think.
 
The relevant Ohio statute is here.

2923.126v3(C)(3)(a)
(a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.
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Since the sign is stenciled on the door, it would be hard to make a case that it just wasn't conspicuous enough. And they don't have to catch you and ask you to leave before you've committed a criminal act, walking past the sign with a firearm is in and of itself an act of criminal trespass.

Not sure if a 4th degree misdemeanor will get your CCW revoked, but I sure wouldn't test it.

Your Second Amendment rights do not, ever, trump someone else's property rights. Simple as that. Even here, in one of the most gun friendly states in the country, notice has the weight of law. If I invite you to my Halloween party and the invite, written or verbal, says "no guns, please", then I have provided all the notice I need. Ignoring it is an act of criminal trespass, so go to another party or another sports bar.

Be sure to let the business or property owner why you won't be attending or patronizing, but that's all you really need to do. Announcing that you're "boycotting" them just encourages people who agree with the policy to patronize more.
 
Shortwave, I think we're saying the same thing. (If they say no guns, don't go there). My "you are not so special" comment was towards the guys "sneaking" their guns in places it's posted no guns. They are basically saying that their rights supercede the owner of the establishments.
 
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