Buying a Safe is too Confusing.

[rellascout]

Anyone have a Diamond Back GS5922H

"H" Series Features:

1/8" (10 Gauge) Solid Steel Body Construction

1/4" Solid Steel Door Construction

LaGard Group II Combination Lock (Electronic Lock Optional)

(10) 1.5" Solid Steel Locking Bolts Which Locks Door On All 4 Sides

Gear Driven - Live Locking Bolts

Relocker For Additional Security

External Hinges

Universal Interior - Grey Fabric - Adjustable Shelving

2 Layers Of Fireproofing (60 Minutes @ 1250 Degrees)

Safes Come Drilled For Bolting To Floor

Durable Black Finish With Attractive Golden Accents

 

[guntotin_fool]

another option. I have had boxes built 1/4 or 3/8 hard plate. shielded hinges and inset locks that have stood up for years on jobsites. They are about 800 bucks now if i get a new one from my neighborhood fab shop. I had one that some bozo tried to get open by ramming it between a loading dock and the forks of a bobcat. He finally got it open but had busted about everything in the box with the impacts.

Fire protection comes from 1/2 or 5/8 inch firerock, or treated drywall. easy to have it added or do it yourself. Adding the fire caulk to seal the gaps under heat is easy too. Intumescent caulking is available at ww graingers. not pretty as conversation pieces go but I have five of them that hold thousands of dollars of tools on jobsites everynight.

 

[SaltySteve]

Hmmmmm!

 

[leadcounsel]

Here's the site.

www.sturdysafe.com

shows a total burndown and everything in the safe survived because, unlike the mainstream safes (which use fire resistant gympsum board, aka dryall) sturdy uses ceramic/glass fireresistant blankets which work better.

also much better at burglary resistance. thicker steel, better locks, etc.

the safe i bought wasn't glamourous, but weights 900 lbs, 9 gauge steel, 1/4" steel door, commercial dial lock for something in the $1600 range. it was under $2000 delivered.

 

[SaltySteve]

Yeah, I'll certainly give them a call when I get back State side. There is no price list on their web site. I have to say though that I'm leaning toward the Am sec BF 6040 at this stage. Of course by the time I get back and start actually talking to dealers I'm sure to waffle a little.

 

[nbk2000]

Some ideas...

If you have a house with a basement, or a place where you could break through the flooring (assuming you own the house!), then your best bet would be to get a large enough safe with a decent UL rating for burglary resistance, and setting it on its back into the hole in the floor, securing it in place with bolts (from the inside) to prevent removal.

Properly secured into place, it becomes a very resistant to fire damage, since heat rises up and water go to low spots, as well as very difficult to attack, as only the strongest side (the door) is exposed to a burglars tools.

You'd have to modify it a bit by adding a lift piston, like that found on hatchback cars, to aid in lifting the safe door (unless you like hernias...)

If it can't be set below floor level, then you could make a form that the safe would lie in and pour concrete around it, making it much more difficult to attack its vulnerable sides.

It can be done so that there's no permanent modifications made to the property (assuming you rent), and still allowing the safe to be removed if you move.

If you can't do the above, what about putting it in your backyard? Build a shed over it to keep it dry and out of sight. Anyone trying to break into it is going to make a racket that will alert you or the neighbors (assuming they're close enough), as well as making it immune from fire damage since there'd be nothing else in the shed to burn. (It'd be a very small shed, you see. )

If you don't secure ALL sides of the safe, then a burglar who knows his trade will attack through the weak sides, rather than trying to go through the door, which is almost always the strongest part.

Get a TL-15 rated safe, as B and C ratings are inadequate, and in a size adequate for your needs. Don't buy any safe that isn't UL rated for burglary resistance, otherwise you're relying on the manufacturers claims.

A perfect example of this is the demo video by Rhino Safes.

They compare the locking bolts they use against an unidentified competitor, saying how "no thief is going to cut through OUR hardened locking bolts!", using a hand-held hacksaw to demonstrate.

First, no thief would try it in the first place, unless he's a brain-dead zombie, using a hand tool, nor given the sheer number of bolts to cut.

Second, they didn't bother mentioning how the competitors locking bolt is hollow because it has a free-spinning hardened pin in it that makes it resistant to even a cut-off wheel attack, something Rhino's unitary bolt is NOT.

Your budget wouldn't allow you to get a UL rated safe with an 'x6' rating (meaning all six sides are equally protected), so you have to remove 5 sides from the attackers access by burying it.

Since a burglary rated safe is not a fire-resistant, and vise-versa, you'll have to improve its ability to withstand a fire. Some things would be to run a pipe to the safe with a fire sprinkler head, so if there is a fire, there's a constant stream of water spraying on it to keep it cool.

I'm assuming you'd risk some rust rather than detempering?

Anything that can't take water should be bagged or tupperware'd, since the safe would collect water in it during fire suppression, and would be subject to flood damage if you're at risk from such things.

Gun 'safes', such as Liberty/Fort Knox/etc. are all jokes. They'll keep unmotivated punks out, but not a burglar who knows his trade. Give a thief 5 minutes, with a 7" Skil saw with an abrasive cut-off wheel in it, and he'll have a hole big enough to climb through!

I recently cut a 1' x 1' through 1/4" steel plate to install a toilet in a semi-trailer, and it took less than 5 minutes using the above tool setup. Noisy as hell, and sparks like 4th of July, but got the job done.

And this is why you won't see thieves using drills to bypass the hardplate and UL rated combination locks on this kind of 'safe'...because in the time it'd take to set up a drill, you can cut a hole in them.

You could possibly even pick up a real bargain by calling around to various locksmiths and safe techs, telling them you'd be interested in buying just the safe door from a safe that has been damaged by a burglar cutting in through one of the sides.

Since the safe is compromised by such damage, the owner can't really sell the thing, so he'd be happy to sell you the (undamaged) door, to recover some expense. At a drastic discount, of course.

You might have to wait a while for a thief to break into the kind of safe you need, but patience is well rewarded.

 

[SaltySteve]

I think your recommendation pretty much sums up what I have taken from this thread.

1) Buy a Gun safe and live with the shortcomings (but Fire protected)
2) Buy a Security safe and pay big bucks (no fire protection)
3) Buy either and use a little ingenuity to overcome any shortcomings.

The decision I need to make now is how for do I want to go with this?
My Firearms are not really that valuable, I just don't want them taken easily and used against myself or anyone else. I think I will be happy with them reasonably protected.

 

[a1abdj]

Get a TL-15 rated safe, as B and C ratings are inadequate, and in a size adequate for your needs. Don't buy any safe that isn't UL rated for burglary resistance, otherwise you're relying on the manufacturers claims

A "B" or "C" rated safe is often more than adequate. A "B" rated safe uses 1/4" steel plate walls, and a 1/2" steel plate door. That is far more steel than is found in the vast majority of gun safes. A "C" rated safe uses 1/2" steel for the bodies, and a 1" plate door. A TL-15 is an "E" rate and a TL-30 is a "F" rated safe.

Unless you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of a collection, a "B" or "C" rated unit would be a great safe to use. Keep in mind that any of these safes large enough for guns are going to be much heavier than you would expect. A "B" rated safe may weigh 1,500 to 2,000 pounds, a "C" rated safe may weigh 2,000 to 3,000 pounds, and a TL rated safe will exceed 3,000 pounds.

Your budget wouldn't allow you to get a UL rated safe with an 'x6' rating (meaning all six sides are equally protected), so you have to remove 5 sides from the attackers access by burying it.

Again, unless your purpose is to protect your collection from a serious attack, this is a little overkill.

Since a burglary rated safe is not a fire-resistant, and vise-versa, you'll have to improve its ability to withstand a fire.

There are many safes on the market that are both burglary rated and provide fire protection. All burglary rated composite safes offer fire resistance. There are also some steel plate safes which have a composite interior lining giving them fire protection.

Gun 'safes', such as Liberty/Fort Knox/etc. are all jokes. They'll keep unmotivated punks out, but not a burglar who knows his trade. Give a thief 5 minutes, with a 7" Skil saw with an abrasive cut-off wheel in it, and he'll have a hole big enough to climb through!

This is true. Even though some of these safes are built stronger than some of the others, they still don't offer any substantial protection. Many people assume that because it looks like a safe, it is a safe. Most of these gun safes use 1/10" steel (12 gauge). 1/10" is nothing to cut through.

Since the safe is compromised by such damage, the owner can't really sell the thing, so he'd be happy to sell you the (undamaged) door, to recover some expense. At a drastic discount, of course.

We can usually repair even extensive damage to the body of a safe without it affecting its rating. If the damage is so extensive that the safe is no longer viable, generally the door isn't usable either. You can buy a safe door new, if you're only looking for a door.

1) Buy a Gun safe and live with the shortcomings (but Fire protected)
2) Buy a Security safe and pay big bucks (no fire protection)
3) Buy either and use a little ingenuity to overcome any shortcomings.

There are literally hundreds of safe models available which cover just about any intended use you can imagine. The more functions the safe serves, the higher the price. There is some point where everything balances out, and the safe costs will reflect your comfort level with both your purchase and the protection it offers.

Keep in mind, that a safe is one of the cheapest insurance policies available, and it is also your last line of defense. If you skimp on the safe required for your needs, you may not like the aftermath of a fire or burglary. If you buy a $2,000 safe and it gives you 20 years of service, your cost is only $8.33 per month.

 

[GunFixer]

Zanotti Armor Modular Gun Safes

Have you looked at Zanotti Armor? They make a really good "box that locks". You can take it apart and move everything yourself with the exception of the door. They have a website at http://www.zanottiarmor.com

Might be worth a look.

 

[nbk2000]

Obviously, some clarification is needed...

A "B" rated safe uses 1/4" steel plate walls, and a 1/2" steel plate door. That is far more steel than is found in the vast majority of gun safes.

To which I say:

I recently cut a 1' x 1' through 1/4" steel plate to install a toilet in a semi-trailer, and it took less than 5 minutes using the above tool setup. Noisy as hell, and sparks like 4th of July, but got the job done.

Your response to my suggestion of burying the safe so that only the face is exposed is:

Again, unless your purpose is to protect your collection from a serious attack, this is a little overkill.

I say that anyone trying to steal your guns is a serious threat to your life, your freedom, and the lives and freedom of others. If some punk kid, or punk adult, steals your gun, and uses it to kill themselves/kill others/commit a crime, it could be your ass in prison for negligence.

Then comes more laws to restrict gun ownership and freedom of use, like the non-sense about trigger locks.

...it is also your last line of defense. If you skimp on the safe required for your needs, you may not like the aftermath of a fire or burglary.

So what's overkill now?

Since any safe that isn't a UL-rated x6 is more vulnerable on any of its sides/top/bottom than the door, that you need to remove that vulnerability by burying it, or building up a barrier to surround it.

This is all quite elementary, since it's been known since the 1800's that safes recessed into walls or floors are much more resistant to fire and attack by burglars.

Weight is not much of an issue, since this isn't something that needs to be moved around at whim. It's intended to be set in one place and left there for the duration. The more solidly it can be anchored, and the heavier it is, the better. (Within the ability of the structure to support it, of course.)

You're rather disingenious in stating that there are fire-rated burglary safes. This is achieved by placing a smaller burglary safe inside of a larger fire-resistant safe, such as shown below (on your website) - a Diebold Double Door Fire Safe w/ TRTL-30 Lug Door Interior Chest:



Until very recently, only the CHUBB Europlanet series had a UL listing for a unitary body safe with both fire and burglary resistance. 1, 2 (Still might be the only one.)

Fire resistance, such as that provided by fireboard insulation installed into a burglary-resistant safe, is not the same as that provided by a UL listed fire-protection rating. Neither in duration, nor temperature, nor resistance to shock loading.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, unless you've got the $$$ for a CHUBB, or similar unitary fire/burglary-resistant safe, especially for something big enough to fit a gun collection above ground.

We can usually repair even extensive damage to the body of a safe without it affecting its rating.

True enough when the safe isn't an x6, since the body is nothing more than plate steel. 3 Trim the hole neat, weld in a plate/plug, grind flat, repaint, and who'd know the difference?

You can buy a safe door new, if you're only looking for a door.

You're not referring to a vault door, are you? Unless he lucks out and finds an old bank vault door locally, the shipping on a vault door would be astronomical. The 'vault' doors sold by Liberty or Fort Knox, etc. aren't worth the sheet metal they're made from.

If you know of any safe manufacturer who sells new UL-listed safe doors as stand-alone components, I'd like to know who they are, because I've never heard that before.

REFERENCES:

1. Rated 1 hour fire endurance to UL class 350(USA)/VDMA S60P (Euro). 1 hour at 1000?C plus a 9 meter free-fall.

KC Safes sells the 'Phoenix Condor', which they call a "TL-30 equal. But is it UL tested? Hmmm...no?

2: Page 894 of Locks, Safes, and Security 2nd ed., Marc Weber Tobias

3:

U.L. Label ?Burglary Classification TL-15:

Signifies a combination-locked safe designed to offer a limited degree of protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Construction Requirements:

• U.L. listed Group II, 1 or 1R combination lock.
  
• 750 lbs. minimum or comes with instructions for anchoring in a larger safe, concrete blocks or on the premises where used.
  
• Body walls of material equivalent to at least 1" open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
  
• Walls fastened in a manner equivalent to continuous 1/4" penetration weld of open hearth steel with minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
  
• One hole 1/4" or less, to accommodate electrical conductors arranged to have no direct view of the door or locking mechanism.

Performance Requirements

Successfully resist entry* for a net working time of 15 minutes when attacked with common hand tools, picking tools, mechan-ical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms.

* Entry=Safes classed as TL-15 ? opening the door or making a six square inch opening entirely through the door or front face. Safes classed as TL-30 ? opening the door or making a six square inch opening entirely through the door or front face.

Previous discussion on TFL about building a vault room.

 

[a1abdj]

If some punk kid, or punk adult, steals your gun, and uses it to kill themselves/kill others/commit a crime, it could be your ass in prison for negligence.

I'm not a lawyer (although I originally went to school with that idea in mind), but I'm pretty sure that any attempt you make to secure your weapons would be a defense to negligence. Negligence would be leaving your guns out in the open.

If anybody is hell bent on stealing your valuables, they are going to get them no matter what you use to secure them.

Then comes more laws to restrict gun ownership and freedom of use, like the non-sense about trigger locks.

California has already addressed this issue, and their Department of Justice has a list of requirements for gun safes. Most gun safes available today meet those requirements...even the light duty ones.

So what's overkill now?

Buying a $15,000 safe for a $1,500 collection of guns.

Since any safe that isn't a UL-rated x6 is more vulnerable on any of its sides/top/bottom than the door, that you need to remove that vulnerability by burying it, or building up a barrier to surround it.

Although on the face this is true, regardless of a safe's rating, the body is usually weaker than the door....even on a X6 rated safe.

You're rather disingenious in stating that there are fire-rated burglary safes. This is achieved by placing a smaller burglary safe inside of a larger fire-resistant safe, such as shown below (on your website) - a Diebold Double Door Fire Safe w/ TRTL-30 Lug Door Interior Chest:

I appreciate you citing some of my work for others to see.

There are plenty of burglar rated safes which are also fire rated. Any modern day composite safe (safe made out of high density concrete materials instead of solid steel plate) are like this. Feel free to check out some of the examples here:

http://amsecusa.com/composite-safe-am-vault.htm

http://www.meilinksafe.com/gib30x.html

There are also many steel plate safes which have a composite type construction with a fire liner. Graffunder builds premium gun safes which use this type of construction:

http://graffundersafes.com/

Even 100 years ago they built "fireproof" steel safes. A normal "fireproof" safe was thin steel and concrete fill, but they also made safes that had several inches of laminated steel in addition to a concrete fill.

In some cases, this was also achieved by the photo shown above. A burglar rated safe placed inside of a fire rated safe.

Until very recently, only the CHUBB Europlanet series had a UL listing for a unitary body safe with both fire and burglary resistance

There have been others. Some with UL ratings, some with independant ratings, and some with foreign ratings.

Fire resistance, such as that provided by fireboard insulation installed into a burglary-resistant safe, is not the same as that provided by a UL listed fire-protection rating. Neither in duration, nor temperature, nor resistance to shock loading

True, with one exception. UL requires that a safe which passes it's testing must be built at the factory identically to the safe which was tested. In many high security safes, each safe is built with random configurations to help maintain that security. This can prevent a safe which would otherwise pass the testing from being able to display the tag.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, unless you've got the $$$

This is also true. Many gun owners expect the highest rated safe for $500 including delivery. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to safes.

You're not referring to a vault door, are you?

No...just a safe door.

The 'vault' doors sold by Liberty or Fort Knox, etc. aren't worth the sheet metal they're made from.

I agree 128%

If you know of any safe manufacturer who sells new UL-listed safe doors as stand-alone components, I'd like to know who they are, because I've never heard that before.

All of the companies that I've ever dealt with will sell single doors. It's not something that you see listed in the catalogs, as they are usually purchased to replace a door that has been damaged.

KC Safes sells the 'Phoenix Condor', which they call a "TL-30 equal. But is it UL tested? Hmmm...no?

I am not familiar with this safe, and I have not gone to the link to look. However, the UL is a US based testing agency. There are other testing facilities located outside of the US (where many of these safes are imported from).

The ratings issued by some of these groups are equal to that of the UL rating system here. Just because it doesn't have a UL label, does not mean it's not a good safe with a proper rating. Insurance companies will accept many of these foreign ratings just the same as they will accept a UL rating.

All in all, I'm not disagreeing with much of what you say. A good burglar rated safe would be the ideal for anybody wishing to secure their valuables.
But in many cases, the items being protected simply do not justify the expense of these types of safes.

 

[nbk2000]

Once more unto the breach!

I'm not a lawyer (although I originally went to school with that idea in mind), but I'm pretty sure that any attempt you make to secure your weapons would be a defense to negligence. Negligence would be leaving your guns out in the open.

If anybody is hell bent on suing you, they are going to sue you no matter what you use to secure your guns.

Remember back when storing your guns out of reach with the ammo seperate was considered adequate?

Now you need a 'gun safe' and biometric trigger lock, with the ammo stored off-premise in a safe-deposit box requiring a notarized letter from the State Attorney Generals office before you can go shooting at a State approved range with police escort to and from. (For the dense, I'm being sarcastic in the previous sentence.)

California is the source of a lot of this kind of nonsense, and saying that they

Point being, NO amount of 'due diligence' will save you from being charged by a DA up for re-election in a liberal county. The ONLY thing that can prevent you from being an NRA poster boy against gun-control is keeping your guns out of the hands of people who would misuse them.

In response to my statment of "So what's overkill now?":

Buying a $15,000 safe for a $1,500 collection of guns.

Please point out ANYWHERE where I said "$15,000", either directly or by implication, or anything even close to it. You can't because I didn't. In his post, he mentioned $1,200 as his limit, and that's what I've had in mind the entire time.

If anybody is hell bent on stealing your valuables, they are going to get them no matter what you use to secure them.

And with an army of henchmen and a white persian cat, I could break into Fort Knox and destroy all the gold! MWAHAHAHAA!



By that logic, why even bother? Hell, if they're THAT determined, they'd just hold a knife to your kids neck (or your neck if you don't have one), and demand you open the safe, something no safe can defend you against.

And if a thief has infinite time, infinite resources, and infinite willpower, than yes, they'll get into your safe.

The whole point of this thread is to provide the maximum protection for a small gun collection for minimum price.

Security is always a trade off between Time, Effort, and Expense. If he had the money, he could just by a huge safe that'd provide everything in one go. But, since he doesn't he'll have to expend time and effort in a DIY project to compensate.

If you expend more effort and time and resources in defense than the attacker can in offense, you'll likely prevail.

How long does the thief have to work on the safe before you come back? A weekend, perhaps? Assuming this is the case, does the thief have that much patience? Or will he pound on the safe with what he brought with him and what he can find around your house, leaving in defeat? If he goes out to get more tools, that's more chances he has to be seen by neighbors who might call the cops. If he can spend days with powertools and torches to work on your safe, then he will get in.

The idea is to make it SO time-consuming, SO risky, SO tiring, SO frustrating, that the thief will leave empty handed.

...regardless of a safe's rating, the body is usually weaker than the door....even on a X6 rated safe.

You're just repeating what I already said about bodies being weaker than doors, and in no way negate the truth of what I said. Perhaps I was too absolute in excluding an x6 from having sides more vulnerable than the door, but so what? That just makes the whole statement about surfaces being more vulnerable than the door even more true.

While I also think it likely that the door on an x6 is more resistant than the other five surfaces, the five sides are still, at a MINIMUM, equal to the rating of the whole safe. And the whole safe is rated by it's weakest aspect. So putting a TRTL-60 door on a TL-15 body, results in a TL-15 safe, not a TRTL-60.

Thus, if the safe is a TL30x6, Such as the Meilink Gibraltur shown in a link you provided, that means that EVERY side (door/walls/top/bottom), has withstood UL tests for the TL-30 rating. They don't keep testing until they penetrate, they test for the total net working time that the safe manufacturer has submitted their product to be tested at.

The testing only stops when:

A) The safe is breached to the mimimum requirements within the alloted test time

or

B) The alloted time for the desired rating runs out

I appreciate you citing some of my work for others to see.

Claim what's yours, not what isn't.

There are plenty of burglar rated safes which are also fire rated. Any modern day composite safe (safe made out of high density concrete materials instead of solid steel plate) are like this. Feel free to check out some of the examples here...

I checked them out, and found them all lacking.

Firstly, the amsecusa.com link you provided was 404. The top-level domain was 403 Forbidden. Went to Google cache, but the links didn't follow. I'm assuming it's not just me.

However, having used an AMSEC safe on a daily basis at a grocery store I worked at, I know that (for that model) that the body was fire-resistant, but the burglary-resistant component was an inner compartment, not the whole body. Hell, the thing had a hole the big enough to stick your hand through in the side (drop slot), which automatically fails it (the main body) for a UL-burglary rating.

Regarding the Meilink safe you linked, that was another example of manufacturer misdirection.

First of all, only the three smallest sizes are specifically mentioned as having a fire rating. Does this mean the larger sizes are not fire-resistant, or did they just forget to mention it and hope you'll assume they are?

The fire rating is provided by a no-name laboratory, and the ASTM standard on the label, that the safe is supposedly rated for, is for BUILDING WALLS!

"Standard Methods of Fire Tests of Building Construction and Materials" NFPA No. 251, ASTM E 119, UL No. 263

They show a picture of the UL label for 1/2 hour fire resistance, but does that mean that the safe is actually rated for a half hour by UL, or did they just throw that picture in there to give the impression that it was also UL rated for fire resistance?

Nowhere on that page do they say "UL-rated fire resistant", because that'd either be a lie, or a less desirable truth (1/2 versus 1 hour).

By clicking on the fire-rating icon at the lower-left corner of the safe picture, you see that it equates to "Fire resistant unrated insulated safe". Not even meeting the minimum UL class 350 1/2-hour fire label rating. So why do they have the UL fire-rating picture on the safe page? Hmmm...

As for Graffunder products...not a single UL-listed safe on their site.

Oh sure, there's "U.L. approved insulating material" and "U.L. listed group II combination lock", but no UL-listing such as TL-15.

Building something from "approved" components doesn't mean that the whole is a functional integrated unit. I could say my new Uber-Gun is made from NASA tested materials made to NATO STANAG standards. That doesn't mean it'll shoot.

Lots of B and C rated, even an ER rated, but none of those meet minimum definitions for burglary resistance by UL standards.

What about 'factory fire rating'? That's an alarm bell! Tells you that the factory tested their product in-house and found it passed their test. Wow...that's objective testing! Bet they've never failed to pass, what with such high standards.

They say they manufacture safes and vaults with higher ratings, but why should I bother looking after such chicanery? Their FAQ states the reason they don't have any UL-rated products as "Randomization". If I toss a bunch of parts randomly into a box and call it a safe, does that make it a safe?

No.

Maybe the product is good, but how can I tell without testing it to destruction? And, if the product IS randomly assembled, how do I know the next one will be as resistant? I can't.

UL understands the need for security, and they make allowances for design variances in the interest of keeping burglars guessing, so that's no excuse.

 

[nbk2000]

Maxing out 10000 character limits in a single post!

The reason why I keep emphasizing the UL testing is because it's based on a motive I can trust...GREED.

UL, which is Underwriters Laboratory, is a test lab ran by the insurance companies, to evalute the risk posed to the insurance companies by a product that may cause injury, death, or loss, that would result in a claim against them.

So, in order to mimimize their potential loses, they test products to ensure that they're not (too) hazardous or defective in their intended use.

In the case of safes, they test against the tools and techniques of burglars trying to get after thevaluables within. And they are experts at what they do. So they know that if their guys, with all the tools and schematics they need, can't break into a safe within a certain time, then there is no way a thief will either. And that is what they base their insurance rate on.

Manufacturers, in order to sell their products to the market, will get a UL listing if they can, because that means that they can sell to large corporations and companies who won't buy a non-UL rated safe because their insurance company either won't insure them against a loss if it's not UL-rated, or charge higher premiums to cover non-tested safes against possible losses.

UL provides a standard with which safes by different manufacturers can be judged by. Otherwise you're left trying to figure it out yourself and getting techno-babble from them saying that their product is better because it passed their tests.

The standards which foreign countries rate their safes by would have to be considered by UL as equivalent to their tests before I'd accept it as valid. Again, it's a matter of having reliable and repeatable standards for comparison.

If the insurance company who'd be covering your loss accepts a foreign rating as acceptable, then that's their business.

The 'Salamander' safes of the 1800's are one of the prime examples of why standardized testing was developed.

'Salamanders' were the first fire-resistant safes. They were so-called because of the folk belief that salamaders were impervious to fire.

Manufacturers would demonstrate their products by building big bonfires in public squares with their safes in the middle. After the fire dies down, they show the papers unharmed.

All well and good, except for the trickery that was often involved. Such tricks as having the papers at the bottom of the safe, which was sitting on the ground (not in the fire), where it was least heated. People often found that papers in such safes, in a typical house fire, would be charred to ash if it was at the top of the safe because of the rising heat. This was also caused by the insulation settling over time, away from the top of the safe.

Oh, and the lack of drop.

Burning houses fell on top of safes, or safes fell through burning floors, either one causing the safe to bust open, with the attendant destruction of the contents. This is the orgin of the UL drop-test for fire safes.

And more than a few times, the spectators were killed when the 'Salamander' exploded from the pressure build-up caused by the steam cooking out of the alum-sawdust insulation.

Many gun owners expect the highest rated safe for $500 including delivery. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to safes.

A statement I totally agree with. I blame a consumerist society for people expecting quality without cost. You ALWAYS pay. If you're cheap and chintzy, you will pay for it later.

I'll see if I could (though I won't) buy a replacement door from a few major manufacturers as, like I said, I've never heard of that. It'd be nice, though I wonder if they'd only sell to locksmiths, as 'criminals' might buy doors to practice on.

 

[SaltySteve]

Took a while to read all that. 1 small tip, about 2/3rds way through it gets a little dry. If you ever try to sell this as a Movie of the Week you will have to spice it up a little. Just kidding. Yes I'm still reading all this and learning a lot more than I ever expected. Oh, by the way, A few posts into it I upped my budget to $2400. This budget is hypothetical. If I can upgrade significantly for a few hundred more I have no problem in doing so.

 

[nbk2000]

It'd be helpful if you gave me an idea of the type of structure you'd be installing a safe into. Is it a home or apartment? Do you own, lease, rent?

Basement? Type of flooring (wood beams or concrete slab), etc.

 

[SaltySteve]

This is a typical wood frame house built on a slab. I will be relocating early next year so I probably will not do anything elaborate with the install at this location. The next location will be a permanent move for me (I hope)(plan A). Oh yeah, I own this house and the next one. Also, no basements here. A basement here would be called an indoor pool.

 

[SeanB]

....the saga

Hi Steve

I just went through all the same problems and thoughts as yourself.
I finally settled on an Australian made safe made by lokaway.net
Have a look at the way the door locks. Something to think about
Goodluck
Sean

 

[a1abdj]

Again, I don't disagree with much of what you say.

UL listed burglar rated safes are great if you have the money to spend on them. In this case, the original posters budget is not going to allow him to purchase a new TL rated safe, so he's looking for the best safe within this budget.

Unless you're a locksmith, contacting any manufacturer about a door will not do you much good. Just like the safes themselves, they usually are sold through dealers, and not directly to end consumers. If you are in the market for just a door, I'd be more than happy to provide you with pricing.

In the $2000 range, I will stand by my statement that the AMSEC BF series is one of the best safes available in that price range.

Some people (insurance companies included) insist on a UL label. I am always happy to sell a UL rated safe to those people. Having been in the safe business for a few years, I know that there are many unrated safes which would exceed the level of protection offered by a similar UL rated safe.

Most of my concern with gun safes it the amount of misinformation provided by many of the manufacturers.

 

[SaltySteve]

Thanks a1a, I value your insight on this topic and will probably go with your recommendation. I get off this Vessel next week and look forward to making the purchase and getting it in the house. The house I buy later this year will have a garage and then I will look into a used safe to install there. That should open up more options as I probably will not concern myself with Fire protection on that one (I can work around that issue). That should broaden the possibilities for a real Safe? However I definitely will buy a gun safe next week for the house. I have gone too long without any way to really secure my firearms and consider myself lucky up to this point that I haven't been taken to the cleaners.

 

[nbk2000]

So what are you getting?