Buying a Safe is too Confusing.

I suppose my biggest threat is the smash and grab type of hoods. you know, the crackheads and bored kids lookingfor something exciting to do. My belongings aren't that valuable but the potential libility value is high, I have a lot to lose in a cival lawsuit. If you know what I mean. I would be happy with something that someone like that could not walk out the door with.
 
It IS too confusing. But I've come to this opinion myself, on the subject of fire ratings:

As someone pointed out, you cannot trust the manufacturer's own internal test for fire rating. I'd buy one *ONLY* if the test was done by U.L. (underwriter's laboratory). I was going to buy a Liberty safe until I found out that the fire rating on the Libertys was done by some off-the-wall company called Omega or some such, and for all I know, Omega might be a wholly-owned subsidiary of Liberty (and therefore subject to extreme bias). Either it's UL tested to a certain number of minutes from a 1200 external temp until the inside reaches I think 350, or it's meaningless as not comparable to UL, or worse, potentially completely made-up. If I were you, I'd start off by finding the ones who have the UL fire rating you want (decide whether you want 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 75 minutes, 90 minutes, or 120 minutes). Then, among those, decide how many cubic feet you must have to meet your needs. Then, among those left, decide which are in or out of your price range. Finally, among those that are left, if any, look at the physical security features such as weight, number of locking lugs, whether the steel is bent or welded (bent is better), steel thickness (thicker the better), whether the hinges are extenal or internal (do NOT get one with external hinges - they are easy to defeat). That should get you started. Use MS Works to make a spreadsheet detailing your research.
 
I've seen these safes for some time at the local gun show. They have a simple, very heavy duty, tightly crafted product and have been around for a good while. I can't afford one now, but I'm going to get one eventually. They always have lots of impressive pictures of their safes which people have tried to get into.

http://www.drakesafe.com/
 
I just bought a Liberty safe---the Colonial model. It will be delivered Thursday. As I remember, there is a sticker placed on the inside edge of the door that gives it's fire rating. I thought it was a UL sticker. I'll let you know when it's delivered. Mine is last year's version. The current production fire rating is higher according to the web site.
 
As someone pointed out, you cannot trust the manufacturer's own internal test for fire rating. I'd buy one *ONLY* if the test was done by U.L. (underwriter's laboratory).
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There's only one problem with this.....I have never, ever, seen a gun safe with a UL fire rating. Gun safe companies tend to use dry insulation, and only moist insulation can handle the higher temps that UL tests.

Also, in some cases a safe may very well pass the UL test, but for various reasons will not carry a tag. UL regulations state that all safes must be produced identical to the safe tested. If you change anything about the design, you have to resubmit for testing.

There are a lot of safe companies that build outstanding custom safes which can not carry UL tags for this reason. A UL rating isn't the end all be all, but it is a good benchmark.

there is a sticker placed on the inside edge of the door that gives it's fire rating. I thought it was a UL sticker
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The UL sticker inside of your Liberty safe indicates that it kept a UL tech armed with a hammer and a screwdriver out of the safe for 5 minutes. This is a UL RSC (Residential Security Container) rating. Notice the Lab didn't refer to the unit as a "safe" but rather a "container". This is because most gun safes aren't really considered safes by professionals.

Liberty makes an OK product, but I believe they are one of the worst at deceptive marketing practices.

They always have lots of impressive pictures of their safes which people have tried to get into
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Anybody that claims that nobody has ever broken into a safe they made is either a liar, or hasn't been in the safe business very long. Most gun safes are built out of very thin steel....this steel does not take on magical properties just because they form it into a box and mount a dial on it.

I've seen bank vaults compromised. I've seen 1.5" steel plate safes cut in half. I've seen 5,000 pound safes "walk off". A 12 gauge steel gun safe is 1/10" thick. Most gun safes are the wet paper bag of the safe business.

Most people will not encounter a professional burglar, and don't need bank type protection. Unfortunately, even a meth head can swing an axe or a hammer during a smash and grab.

Just weigh your options before making a decision. If you are willing to accept a little higher risk for a cheaper, less secure safe then that's fine....so long as you understand the risk. The problem I have with a lot of these gun safe companies, is that they mislead the consumer into thinking they are getting a far greater protection than they really were.

By the way...here's what 5 minutes with a sledge will do to a 12 gauge safe.
libertyburglary2.jpg
 
At this point I'm leaning towards the Amsec BF 6032 or 6030 models or the Fort Knox Protector 6041 maybe the defender 6041. I wonder what the real diff is between the two Fort Knox safes are? If I had access to a phone I would just call them, but all I have is their ad that says they are mostly the same except for cosmetics. Well at least I'm narrowing it down some. By the way what Brand safe is that?
 
I sell a lot more of the AMSECs than I do Fort Knox. Most of my AMSEC sales are to buyers wanting a secure safe, and most of my Fort Knox sales are to collectors wanting a showpiece.

The Protector has gloss paint, pin stripes, and gold dial/handle. The Defender has textured paint, no stripes, and chrome dial/handle. They are both the exact same safe otherwise.

The safe in the photo I posted is a Liberty Centurion.
 
check out DRMO

When you get back to port check out DRMO and see when they will have their next auction. I picked one up from my old bases DRMO for about 300 bucks that is mil spec and is fire and water resistant to mil standards, plus it came with an X09 lock worth a lot. If not I would also go with the winchester.

Also once you get it, don't foreget about a good dehumidifier to absorb the moisture. Check out www.midwayusa.com for good dehumidifiers.
 
ramen has some too...

Also once you get it, don't foreget about a good dehumidifier to absorb the moisture. Check out www.midwayusa.com for good dehumidifiers.
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Don't Ramen noodles come with free dehumidifiers????

LoL, after spending this much on a safe, I won't be able to buy anything but a hi-point :eek:

maybe a summer job...
 
Most of your brand name safes are pretty similar. Browning, Liberty, Fort Knox, Champion, Cannon, etc....

The weak link is the thin steel. All of these companies use 12 gauge steel on their lower models, and 10 gauge on some of the others. At the end of the day, nothing else matters....1/10" steel is 1/10" steel.

I sell imported safes that all sell for less than $1,000 which have more steel in them than some of these brand name safes that are priced at $4,000. With a gun safe, you are paying more for a name and cosmetics than you are real protection.

With that said, you have to understand there's a tight rope act that these safe companies are putting on. The safe has to be big enough for guns, but light enough to go into a house. It has to have a fire liner, but it can't be moist because it will damage the guns. It also has to be cheap, because gun owners are notorious for wanting to spend as little as possible on a gun safe.

Many of these gun safes are OK for normal weapons storage. I have a problem with the companies that claim their gun safes are suitable for protecting the family jewels, photographs, and other things that they are not designed to protect.
 
remember your safe math. its the same formula used for tent buying. it is based on the chinese perfect woman formula.
X divided by 2 - one = Y
therfore if you are buying a 30 gun safe it will actually hold 14 guns.
sound mathmatics i asure you.
6 man tent?
anyone
anyone?
2 people (or 3 midgets).
perfect woman?
46 year old man? 22 year old woman. works everytime.
 
LoL, after spending this much on a safe, I won't be able to buy anything but a hi-point
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Now that would be funny - a $4,000 safe full of hi-points. :)

a1a, thanks so much for the excellent information - I can't *believe* that a sledgehammer can do that to a Liberty centurion safe in 5 minutes - a real eye-opener there. Mine's a massive POS about like that one I suppose - it's a 'Bear' brand safe. Geez, time to get a better one, I think, definitely. Interesting too about the UL ratings, but hmmm, I could have sworn I've seen some safes with a UL fire rating sticker. But that "Omega" thing on the libertys was suspect to me. UL I've heard of; Omega, notsomuch. I could make safes and also start a company called omega to test my safes - whaddya know, they're the highest rated on the market after my other company's "indedpendent" testing.

PSE, yeah I think JayCo used that formula on my popup camper trailer - supposed to sleep 6 - yeah, OK, sortof - if a couple of them are kids and you don't mind crawling over the kids to get in and out of bed, and have absolutely no room left for ya know, clothes & gear.

a1a, is zykan your company? What's the best value going - what do you recommend we buy from you? :)
 
I can't *believe* that a sledgehammer can do that to a Liberty centurion safe in 5 minutes.
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I can. But then I used to work for a living. Now what I call working is more like thinking and it pays a heck of a lot better. :)

In my younger days I would have bet I could cut that safe completely in half in less than 5 minutes with an 8# splitting maul. And somebody would have been paying up too. 5 minutes is a very long time for something to be pounded on with a sledge, especially one with a cutting edge. These days I have to leave tricks like that up to my sons.....
 
That damaged safe is easy to believe when you consider that 12 gage is only 1/10 of an inch. These guys http://www.drakesafe.com/ use 1/4" (<3 gage) for everything, and it's not a cumulative thickness, it's all in 1 piece. They use very few seams.
It looks, to me, to be a pretty rationale way to build one without going overboard.

Material thickness:

STEEL
Gage (inches) (mm)
3 .2391 6.073
4 .2242 5.695
5 .2092 5.314
6 .1943 4.935
7 .1793 4.554
8 .1644 4.176
9 .1495 3.797
10 .1345 3.416
11 .1196 3.030
12 .1046 2.657
13 .0897 2.278
14 .0747 1.897
15 .0673 1.709
16 .0598 1.519
17 .0538 1.367
18 .0478 1.214
19 .0418 1.062
20 .0359 0.912
 
a1a, is zykan your company? What's the best value going - what do you recommend we buy from you?
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Zykan Safe is my company. I've been in the safe business since I was 16 years old, but have done many other things as well. The safe business doesn't make me rich, but it's something that I really enjoy.

As far as value...it really depends on a persons specific needs. I always tell anybody, that for the price, the AMSEC BF series is one of the best gun safes in its price range. I am very picky about what I sell. When one of my distributors started selling imported gun safes, I had them send me two samples which we promptly tore down in the shop. I will only sell products which I have personally had the chance to look over, so that I know what it is and what it isn't. I'd rather see for myself than read it out of the manufacturer's catalog.

We sell new gun safes starting at around $500, and going up into the $10,000range. Sometimes it's less costly to buy something from me, and sometimes it's less costly to buy elsewhere. I'm the type of guy that will send you to a competitor if I think their product is a better suited for you.

I'm also more than happy to locate professional safe techs (not just retailers that sell safes) in your area in the event you're looking for something used, or need work done.

I have another photo showing the front of that safe above. I'll post it when I find it.
 
safes

Find the threads relating to safes that I started and commented in in 2005 when I was going through this exact decision.

Bottom line, a lot of the safes on the market are inferior because they don't appear to stand up to the necessary heat generated by a fire nor do they have superior burglary protection.

I purchased a Sturdy Safe and am very pleased.
 
I bought a "Winchester" safe, made by Granite Safe Co. from Sam's for $581. It does have a UL inspection and electronic lock. Supposed to be a 24 long gun safe or 1/2 long guns and 1/2 shelves, that's the way I have it set up. Will it stand up to a sledge hammer for any length of time? Doubt it, but it will keep the average "kick in the door, grab what you can and run" burgular out. Like the ones that hit me before. I have it tucked in a little "nook" in my house with a curtain hiding it from direct view and it could only be hit straight from the front and not much room to swing. I keep other things in it too. Like insurance papers, Army records, my Dad's flag from his funeral, and my meds.
Perfect protection? Nah, but not many people know it's there, so I don't expect a professional safe-cracker to come to my house anyway, or someone carrying a sledge hammer that will spend the time to smash it open. My German Shepard inside and my "Black Barking Dog" outside would probably offer some diversion also. Not perfect fire protection either, but some. It beats hiding guns and other stuff around the house and I sure feel better when my grandkids visit.
 
Thats kinda where i'm at too. I think i'm gonna go with 1 of the Amsec BF models. A little more then I want to spend, but....if I remember correctly everything that i read then I think it will afford some Doc Protection also. At least better than some of the others.
 
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