Buying a pistol as a gift

Edward429451 said:
...Myself, I'll live a normal life within my rights. If you couldn't buy family members a gun for a present then I'd have been in jail long ago because we've had somewhat of a family tradition of buying guns for each other. WADR, you're being overly paranoid, but by all means, do what you want....
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Edward429451 said:
...Relationship does matter in that within immediate family, (assuming no felonies etc.) it is not a straw purchase and not their business. Non family members transfers could be brought into question much more easily than immediate family, so in that light relationship does matter...
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Let's be real clear; that is all convoluted, disorganized gibberish.

The bottom line --

  1. In general it is legal to give someone a gun as a gift if the recipient is legally qualified to possess the gun. The transfer needs to satisfy state law. And if the transferor and transferee are residents of different States, the transfer must also satisfy federal law regarding interstate transfers.

  2. In general the procedures required for giving a gun as a gift are the same whether or not the transferor and transferee are family. There may be some exceptions under state law. For example, in California there are streamlined procedures when the transferor and transferee are (1) California residents; and (2) immediate family (specifically parent/grandparent to or from child/grandchild). But there are no exceptions under federal law for interstate transfers among family members.

  3. Straw purchases are another matter entirely. Straw purchases have been discussed here, here, here, here, here and here.
 
Thank you Frank, you make good points and don't just speak provocatively as Tom was. I understand your points and that they are very probably true. I have given guns to friends but generally do not and keep to immediate family because I know that the laws are written in a confusing manner designed to trip people up and perhaps disqualify more people from ownership entirely, so as time goes on I feel it is a safer proposition to keep to family.

I certainly do respect the laws and in fact fear the potential loop holes of them so as not to accidently transgress them.
 
bonefamily - I'm not sure if anyone explained this already but the paperwork you fill out when buying a gun is not a gun "registration" but the federal form required to be filled out along with the NICS check. This is kept with the FFL for the requisite amount of time and from what I've read this information is not stored with the feds.

Also, you mentioned bringing her along and having it "put in her name" when it arrives. The transferring FFL will have to match the information used online when purchasing the firearm to what you put on the 4473 form. These parties have to be one in the same.
 
The transferring FFL will have to match the information used online when purchasing the firearm to what you put on the 4473 form. These parties have to be one in the same.
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What if there is none? Do they refuse the transfer?
 
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What if there is none? Do they refuse the transfer?
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What if there is no information sent with the firearm to the receiving FFL? This information is always collected when you purchase a firearm online.
 
What if there is no information sent with the firearm to the receiving FFL? This information is always collected when you purchase a firearm online.
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What if you purchase something privately through a forum such as this one, where there is no bill of sale?
 
AH.74, I actually started the other thread discussing the usage of a BOS for a private sales.

The original poster from what I understand bought his gun from a retail store out of state who shipped it to a receiving FFL. It seems like you are asking about an online sale from another state between private parties. Those will take place FFL to FFL from what I gather. You both have to be a resident of the same state to bypass the FFL requirement. I've honestly never conducted this sort of transaction but others may be able to chime in. Might be a good topic for another thread. We are now off-topic and entering hijack mode...
 
Just to add to the confusion in the example 4 the gun is community property so negates the straw purchase idea. Bought a gun myself a while back and as my hand was in a cast my wife did the paperwork. Probably a gray area but with state property laws it would be impossable to get a conviction.
 
Does the federal government agree that state community property laws trump federal firearm laws? I don't think I'd care to be the test case on that.
 
Don H said:
Does the federal government agree that state community property laws trump federal firearm laws?
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It's not a question of trumping federal law.

The ATF views lying on the 4473 about who the actual purchaser of the gun is to be a straw purchase. The real crime, however, is making a false statement on the 4473.

Whose money is used to buy the gun basically determines who the actual purchaser is, and whose money it is will be determined by state law, especially with regard to the property of a married couple.

In States which have a community property system, all property acquired by either spouse (with certain exceptions) is considered the property of the community and jointly owned by both spouses. A community property system of marital property is found in a minority of States.

Things could get more complicated in the majority of States which have a common law system of marital property. Under the common law system of marital property, the property acquired by each spouse remains separate property unless specifically held jointly. Of course, money held in a joint bank account will generally be considered the joint property of both spouses even in common law marital property States.
 
Frank, are you saying that in a community property state both spouses would have to complete the 4473 because thay are both, in essence, buying the firearm?
 
Don H said:
Frank, are you saying that in a community property state both spouses would have to complete the 4473 because thay are both, in essence, buying the firearm?
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No, they aren't. If I write a check on our (my wife's an my) bank account, I'm using my money. If she writes a check on that same bank account, she's using her money.
 
No, they aren't. If I write a check on our (my wife's an my) bank account, I'm using my money. If she writes a check on that same bank account, she's using her money.
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This contradicts what you just said before- and according to my knowledge (I live in a community property state and just completed a family law class in which this topic was extensively discussed), the question asked by Don is essentially yes. They don't both have to fill out the form, but they are both becoming owners of the community property- in this case the gun.

In a community property state, your example above is incorrect. A joint account is community property- therefore whether you or your wife spend the money, the money is community property and anything bought with it is also community property.

One way to make an exception is if something is specifically agreed upon in writing to be separate property. Therefore, according to your above example, the accounts would have to be separate and accessible to only that one spouse whose separate property it is.
 
AH.74 said:
...One way to make an exception is if something is specifically agreed upon in writing to be separate property....
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But another way to make an exception is simply from the conduct of the parties and the context of the transaction.

And the point of my example is that both spouses have equal dominion and control of community assets and are free to use community assets independent of each other. Property purchased with community assets is indeed community property, but the parties may, by their conduct show an understanding that a particular item of community property is for the exclusive use of one spouse, or is intended as a gift to one spouse by the community.

And the point here is that a gun purchased by one spouse using community funds is not a straw purchase because the other spouse may have in interest int the funds.

It's very nice that you've taken a family law class. How long have you practiced law?
 
I'm glad the subject came up as I had thought of mentioning it but didn't want to muddy the waters with state law. It is an interesting little twist though.

I'm not an attorney- just some continuing education.
 
AH.74 said:
...just some continuing education.
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Good for you. We need to keep learning.

And thanks for reminding me that I have a few more units to pick up to satisfy my continuing education requirements. Fortunately, I can do it on-line.
 
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