Bartholomew,
We disagree on the intent and (to me) the meaning of the Second
Amendment. The phrase “shall not be infringed” may not be absolute
- I’ll grant you that. For example, a person ruled severely mentally
incompetent in a court of law should not have access to firearms.
Note that such a revocation of Rights is done to an individual - not to
a class, category or other such group of citizens. Compare that to
California where we now have an entirely new class of felons due to
felonious ownership of a specific rifle! Their “representatives” simply
ignore the Constitution to achieve another step in the disarming of
America. This is wrong, Bartholomew, wrong and unconstitutional!
As you note, we have felons who never represented a physical threat
to any American. (Your example of felony parking meter stuffing is
hilarious! I was thinking of an unintentional misinterpretation of our
convoluted IRS regulations!
) I’m sure we agree that we have too
many offenses listed as felonies and too little differentiation between
violent and non-violent “felonious” offenses.
This supports my view that the lifetime “execution of citizenship”
Rights in such cases is immoral and unconstitutional. If done, it
should be done on an individual basis in a separate trial by jury. The
Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a Natural Right (or God-given Right)
which is merely enumerated in our Constitution. Revoking such a
Right should not be done in a mass marketing fashion. It becomes
too easy to add other deprived groups at the whim of our elitist
“representatives of the people.”
Furthermore, if a vast majority of our fellow citizens (whom I hesitate
to call “Americans”) want to outlaw firearms for a “group” or
“category” of people, that
can be done legally by properly
amending the Constitution. However, the current phrase “shall not
be infringed” is plain, clear and means what it says.
-----
Bartholomew: “Under English Common Law, felony crimes were
capital crimes. People were put to death for them. Here in modern
times we simply execute their citizenship (right to vote, bear arms,
etc.) instead. If anybody feels that is unfair, I am more than willing to
let them go with the original penalty. ... The legitimate gripe to this is
that all kinds of penny ante tripe is now classified as a felony. So your
point isn't entirely unwarranted in my opinion.”
- Surely there are other options than applying the death penalty for
penny ante tripe.
- We are permitting our self-serving government to legislate and
regulate citizens into a position of unconstitutional weakness.
Obvious examples would include IRS regulations and every firearm
law on the books. Debacles such as Waco, Ruby Ridge, and a host of
legal persecutions resulting in the needless and immoral financial
destruction of citizens’ futures are symptoms of our government
regulating our citizens into mere subjects.
Our Constitution is largely ignored by our rulers and their enforcers.
Our citizens either cringe in fear and strive for anonymity (as do most
gun owners) or support the tyranny with slogans such as “for the
greater good” or “for the children.”
Worse, we “compromise” (actually “give up”) our Liberty and
congratulate ourselves for becoming subjects slowly and gradually
rather than quickly and immediately. It is self-induced subservience.
Shame on us for reducing our children and grandchildren to third
world status unbefitting Americans.
-----
Bartholomew: The law is powerless to prevent murder but nobody
suggests that we let that slide.
Dennis: Nor do I.
B: We can punish the felon for obtaining a weapon and let him know
that he will be punished.
D: This is the point we are debating. What you feel is a criminal act I
believe is a Constitutional Right.
B:
Actions (stress added) have consequences and the actions
that made him a felon had the consequence of removing his right to
vote and his right to bear arms.
D: Actions! Indeed! It is not the possession of a firearm that is the
threat to me and my family - it is what he does with that firearm. If
you assume that having a firearm creates illegal shootings, then you
must assume that owning a car (in your garage) and a beer (in your
refrigerator) creates drunk driving, having a penis creates rape and
having a vagina creates prostitution.
----
In no way do I refute your excellent and well documented research on
felons and firearms convictions. However, your research does not
support the hypothesis that guns create crime.
- Of all those felons convicted for weapon offenses, how many were
simultaneously convicted of an actual or attempted crime of violence?
If the prior felon committed a crime of violence, let him be convicted
of
that crime and make the punishment severe - especially for
repeat offenders. Otherwise legal ownership of a firearm remains a
Right - not an offense to be “tacked on” to charges of violent
behavior.
- Of all those felons convicted for weapon offenses, how many
intended
no violent crime? Was the weapon even theirs? Did
it belong to a spouse or other member of the household?
- Most of all, your statistics indicate we are not separating violent
criminals from society effectively. That is a failure of the judicial and
penal systems - not a failure of increased gun control laws,
ordinances, regulations, licensing, taxation, etc.
- "[a]bout 11% of murder arrestees [were] actually on pre-trial
release"--that is, they were awaiting trial for another offense."
- "The fact that only 75% of murderers have adult crime records
should not be misunderstood as implying that the remaining 25% of
murderers are non-criminals. The reason over half of those 25% of
murderers don't have adult records is that they are juveniles. Thus,
by definition they cannot have an adult criminal record."
These are the people who should not be turned loose on society.
Violent criminals, whether they use their bare hands or
any
form of weapon, should be incarcerated until they no longer represent
a threat to our citizens.
It is the intended, attempted, or actual
use of force (in an unlawful manner)
which is the threat - not the mere possession of small arms. That is acknowledged
by the Second Amendment as a protected Right.
