Bush "minutemen vigilantes". Offended? Poll

[LAK]

shootinstudent,

You're dodging. "Conservative papers" and Reason magazine? What is that? "eight"? Or is it "eleven"?

CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc - major syndicated radio news, National Public Radio, VOICE OF AMERICA, etc.

TIME Magazine, Newsweek, and about every periodical aimed at various target readership. National Geographic, Readers Digest ... every swinging other such rags.

Then there is: USA Today, Wall Street Journal, NY Times, L.A. Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, New York Daily News, Philadelphia Enquirer, Denver Post/Rocky Mountain News, Houston Chronicle, Detroit News/Free Press, Boston Globe, New York Post, Minneapolis Star Tribune, The Newark Star-Ledger, Atlanta Journal Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle, The Plain Dealer, The Seattle Times/Post Intelligencer, The Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, The San Diego Union Tribune, The Miami Herald, The Portland Oregonian, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, St. Petersburg Times, Orange County Register, Orlando Sentinel, The Columbus Dispatch, Indianapolis Star, San Antonio Express-News, The Sacramento Bee, South Florida Sun-Sentinel, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Cincinnati Enquirer/Post, The Tampa Tribune, The Daily Oklahoman, The Buffalo News, Hartford Courant, The Times-Picayune, Little Rock Arkansas, Democrat-Gazette, The Charlotte Observer, Louisville Courier Journal, Pioneer Press, Des Moines Register, Omaha World-Herald ... and The Boston Herald.

That's the current top 50 newpapers in this country by circulation from 2,665,815 down to 240,759.

Now tell me, outside of a couple of half-hearted articles in the Wall Street Journal once in a very blue moon - and some of the other few exceptions - how many sustained major rifts in stories, editorials and columns on the private ownership of firearms, the 2nd amendment and crime in this country in the last ten to twenty years in these major TV, radio, and papers?

All accidently follow the same lines huh? Big set of coincidences?

 

[LAK]

And I'd still like to see a response to my point on using workers in place versus importing entirely new workers, as a rejection of the Bush plan would require.

We don't need to "import" workers. If we stopped the murder of a million babies a year in this country there would be plenty of workers.

 

[Charley]

SIS,

Now that you've admitted you were deliberately misconstruing my posts, I think you're doing the same with Wallew's posts.

Wow. One more case in point. Where exactly did I admit to misconstruing your posts? Pointing out that your posts are no different than others in that, on occassion, they project conflicting messages...is not an act of deliberate misconstruing. It is an attempt to point out that: your posts are no different than others in that, on occassion, they project conflicting messages. Nothing more, nothing less.

You need to reread Wallew's original post. He speaks disparagingly of the "minority rights" that were allowed during the 60's, then compares that to the illegal immigrant situation today."

No, not exactly. You interpreted him to be speaking disparagingly of "minority rights." It may not fit into the PC pocket, but believe it or not there are some who support minorities, respect MLK, consider people of all races to be their equal...and yet feel that some of the measures taken in the sixties were in the long run...detrimental to both whites and blacks. I don't know if this is Wallew's opinion or not. It is an opinion expressed by some present day thinkers, both white and black. So in and of itself, it is not a racist concept.

He's posted the same comic before, saying in effect "this is what border protection should be."

No, once again, you interpret that this is what he is saying. Just like I interpreted that you feel illegal entry into the US is on par with shoplifting. Maybe this is where you got the idea that I was diliberately misconstruing your posts? No, I really did interpret it that way. It seemed very clear to me.

Remember, I pointed out several times that I respected your opinion and level headed approach to the discussion?

I respect you, too, SIS. I think, all in all, you have given the MMP a fair shake. I just watched you go to guns on Wallew's post and it bothered me, because in my humble opinion, you seemed to jump to conclusions and make more out of what was there. While I absolutely do not support racism or sexism or any 'ism, really...I have also grown increasingly suspicious of what I consider the "politically correct" mentality. Where the perception of an 'ism is more important than a real thought or intention. In my humble opinion, you veered into that lane ever so slightly. So I crash landed into you...and we have been playing bumper cars ever since!
At any rate, if Wallew is following any of this, I expect him to tell us both to go to hell anytime now. Jeez. Nothin' like two people talking about you when you are in the same room.
I will (once again) give you the last word. Try not to leave skid marks down my back and I promise to try and let bigones be bigones.

 

[Fred Hansen]

The idea that illegals are running around making contact with every Federal and state agency they can is ridiculous.

Why? Here in Washington state no state agency is allowed to ask for proof of anything. They apply for and get whatever they wish. They sign up to vote at the DMV thanks to Bubba Clinton's motor-voter registration.

They are mostly uneducated and scared of being deported (which is a MAJOR economic loss to them), and where they do receive anything beyond basic emergency room care, they receive it by the authority of the State legislature.

Uneducated? I thought you said they were extradordinary and desirable as workers. I have no use for uneducated people, legal or not. I have even less use for people I cannot communicate with because in my line of work proper communication can mean the difference between life and death.

Here's how I see your comment on assimilation: If illegals would all learn english and speak without accents, then there wouldn't be a problem.

Well then if you haven't seen your optometrist lately, you may want to go see him soon. I haven't said a single word concerning accents. I have commented on the lack of rudimentary english among the hispanic illegals that I KNOW; of which only one or uno as they say, speaks a reasonable amount of english. The work we do is difficult, and dangerous, and not being able to communicate causes all sorts of unnecessary problems. Not least of which are frequent injuries; many times very serious injuries. Which of course brings us right back to a health care system that is overburdened with people who cannot communicate even the most basic of information about their injuries without the hospital going broke paying for interpreters, social workers, and various and sundry other crap that would be totally unnecessary in a non-balkanized society.

When my great-grandfather came to this country he did not speak english. No one made sure that everything from hospital pamphlets to ballots were written in freakin' danish. He had to learn english. He learned enough to become a New York beat cop within two years of arrival. He did so because he wanted to be American, not because he wanted to retire back in Denmark in a few years. There is a world of difference between the two types of immigrants. One came to build their new country up, the other comes only to tear up a country they hate and envy. The former are welcome. The latter can get out while the getting is good.

 

[shootinstudent]

There is a world of difference between the two types of immigrants. One came to build their new country up, the other comes only to tear up a country they hate and envy. The former are welcome. The latter can get out while the getting is good.

So all Danish immigrants learned english in their lifetimes? Your problem is that you keep extrapolating your own personal experience to a population of millions of people. Fred Hansen is not a pollster, and doesn't see even a percent of the immigrants in the US. You need to understand that to see why it's tough to convince other people that your observations are correct.

You do not need to be educated to work. The vast majority of past immigrants were not educated at all. Irish, Eastern European, and Southern Europeans made up the lion's share of immigrants over this nation's pre-WWII history. And at the time, people said all the same things you are saying now about the Mexicans. They were all proven wrong, unless, of course, you think that the Irish, Italians, and Polish have not yet assimilated.

Now here's a question that's come to me: Why do you continue to work for an outfit that gives illegals an incentive to come to America? If you're so dead set against it, why don't you stop contributing to the problem by donating your labor to a guy who pays out to illegal immigrants?

 

[Fred Hansen]

So all Danish immigrants learned english in their lifetimes?

No, but the overwhelming majority certainly did. My grandfather didn't have bilingual BS classes in grammer school. In fact if someone had suggested such an idiotic thing my great-grandfather would have punched the idiot's lights out. Today I can't call my bank without being asked if I want to hear the messages in spanish.

Now here's a question that's come to me: Why do you continue to work for an outfit that gives illegals an incentive to come to America? If you're so dead set against it, why don't you stop contributing to the problem by donating your labor to a guy who pays out to illegal immigrants?

Pretty simple. I don't work for the guy(s) who hire the illegals. There are lots of people who work on construction sites that have nothing to do with one another financially. I've dedicated over twenty years to my craft, and I'm not about to give up my work because some people insist on bringing illegals to the job site. Just because you and President Bush are ready to give the country up to illegals doesn't mean I am. If I thought for one minute that the bastards would be rounded up with a phone call to La Migra I'd do it in a heartbeat. How's that for disincentive? But thanks to my actual experience with illegals (rather than abstractions about them) I know that the state and the feds do nothing about illegals who fill out forms that subsequently defraud our government of thousands of dollars. Other than fix their leg that is.

 

[LAK]

They were all proven wrong, unless, of course, you think that the Irish, Italians, and Polish have not yet assimilated

They have; most every last one of them speaks fluent English. Fluent that is. Not necessarily perfect - but fluent. They can be readily understood and can likewise clearly communicate.

Uuur .. cep dem Scousers.

The problem with many northbound immigrants is that they do not make the effort to learn to speak the language fluently. Those that have the ardent desire to culturally assimilate do so and progress quickly. Others do not, and tend to only associate with other Hispanics; immersed in Hispanic TV, radio, magazines, etc. It's funny; often their young children have to translate for them.

The last time I had to renew a professional license one of the Hispanics there had to have someone translate material for them.

 

[shootinstudent]

Fred Hansen,

See above. Your experience is not universal. But it sounds to me like you're rationalizing. If illegal immigration is ruining America, why take part at all? Is your personal job choice worth more than the whole country?

LAK,

You're talking about generations later. Second generation hispanics virtually ALL speak english fluently. Other European immigrant groups have followed the same pattern. There was not a mass learning of english on the part of eastern europeans or Italians, for example. Whole neighborhoods without english were commonplace in port cities, so this is nothing new.

 

[Wallew]

SIS,
So, this only WHITE PEOPLE are racists and take it out on each other? Read this thread HERE:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167847

Think Shakespears "Romeo and Juliet"

And you have been inserting your words (or trying to) into what I've been saying throughout this thread.

Make no mistake, I DO NOT HAVE a racist bone in my body. If you don't believe me, go ask my SIL who is FROM BRAZIL. She's a sweety. Gave my brother three really great kids.

So peddle your racist trash some place else. You CONSISTENTLY have tried to put YOUR RACIST IDEAS to my words, which is cr@p AND YOU KNOW IT.

It's not my fault you are a racist that likes to PROJECT your own racist ideas into what others say. Sad really that you can't just use your own ideas to say what you want to say, INSTEAD OF TRYING TO TWIST WHAT I AND OTHERS SAY HERE. Then you call us racist for YOUR INTERPRETATIONS OF WHAT WE SAY. You are the racist here, not us.

Get a freakin life...

 

[shootinstudent]

Wallew,

What have I said that's racist?

Quote me please. Quote the thing I said that is racist.

And you can clear up your comments if you want. I'll ask what you meant again by talking about how the Hippies messed up everything by minority rights movements, and how that compares to illegal immigration. Also I'd like to know what you were saying the "dark side of the minority problem" was.

I have not once said that only whites are racist (I'm white), nor have I said that even MANY whites are racists. I also have not said that minorites CANNOT be racists. Let's get that straight. I've repeated many times now that racism is abhorred by most Americans.

 

[Wallew]

Sweet, you're exactly the kind of guy I was talking about having the potential to embarrass the minuteman project. Racial warfare and white supremacy (I'm assuming you're a white supremacist)

YOU ASSUME

Does your black best man know that you claim you're better than him?

Saying "whites are better" is white supremacy. Plain and simple.

I NEVER SAID "WHITES ARE BETTER"

Also, that little comic is great....and it proves my point again. You're exactly the guy the Minuteman project (at least in public) does not want associated with its movement.

I'm SO GLAD YOU KNOW WHAT MMP DOES OR DOES NOT WANT. I'm sure they would love a racist like you in their midst.

They also realize that most Americans have nothing but contempt for the image of biker-types running around shooting people under the auspices of "protecting america."

AND THESE ARE JUST THINGS I'VE SAID THAT YOU HAVE DECIDED are racist. Though you have ZIPPO PROOF I actually said what you READ INTO IT. Again, YOUR RACIST IDEAS come shining through.

Denial IS NOT a river in Egypt.

And you NEVER ADDRESSED THE FACTS that more than seventy percent of the population of the USA IS WHITE. Like it or don't, I could give a cr@p. That's a plain fact. And if all these MINORITIES think THEY are in control of THIS COUNTRY, they will one day wake up to a very RUDE FACT. That they are ILLEGAL GUESTS in this country.

That LAST SENTENCE says it all. ILLEGAL ALIENS, people who have entered out country illegally, WILL one day be brought up short. And that cartoon I posted will seem mild in comparison when that day arrives.

 

[Cryptoboy]

LAK,

You're talking about generations later. Second generation hispanics virtually ALL speak english fluently. Other European immigrant groups have followed the same pattern. There was not a mass learning of english on the part of eastern europeans or Italians, for example. Whole neighborhoods without english were commonplace in port cities, so this is nothing new.

Actually, he wasn't talking about generations later, he was talking about first generation immigrants. The immigrants that came to America went to great efforts to learn english and assimilate into this country. Did some of them continue to speak their native tongue at home? Some did yes, but not very many! They came here because they wanted a better life, and were PROUD to become an American, which is something that can't be said about the current crop of immigrants coming in. They want to make better lives for themselves? Fine, more power to them. But why should they come in at our expense, only to belittle this country and send billions of dollars back to their countries because they don't like it here (or like Americans)? If you can't stand America or don't want to be an American, fine, get ou t!!

 

[shootinstudent]

Wallew,

The only quote of mine that comes even close to proving your point was about the comic. Let me get this straight: I'm a racist because I said most Americans would not like to see what's on the comic, happen in real life?

Weird. You posted quotes to show I was a racist that did not mention race at all. I'm not sure how to respond. Do you want to maybe explain how it is I'm a racist for pointing out that most Americans don't want illegals shot down by bikers?

 

[Wallew]

Still skipping all the things you said I see.

Get a grip and grow up. If you don't LIKE THE FACT that you are being called on INTERPRETTING things the way YOU WANT THEM TO BE speaks volumes.

And you NEVER ADDRESSED THE FACTS that more than seventy percent of the population of the USA IS WHITE. Like it or don't, I could give a cr@p. That's a plain fact. And if all these MINORITIES think THEY are in control of THIS COUNTRY, they will one day wake up to a very RUDE FACT. That they are ILLEGAL GUESTS in this country.

So, still in DENIAL I SEE!

 

[shootinstudent]

Wallew,

Uh, not all minorities are illegal guests....that's kind of what I was talking about above, remember?

I'm not sure where this discussion can go. You're going more towards attacking me than talking about the issue. So if you want to post about the issues and not about how "I'm blind", I'll respond again.

 

[TheBluesMan]

This thread has veered sharply off the high road that we strive for.

Closed.