Bush "minutemen vigilantes". Offended? Poll

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Charley,

It looks like you and I are on the same page. I too believe that most Americans, including the minutemen, detest racism. That's why I was pointing out that it is political suicide to promote racism or to be viewed as a racist. And that's what I was saying the minutemen are probably concerned with. I think you confirmed that idea, that the minutemen want to take care not to be seen as racists but rather as concerned with Americans of all backgrounds.

I'll let Wallew answer again also, but talking about how "whites" are going to get fed up and have a Second American revolution, given that he has mentioned the Turner Diaries in other posts, sure makes me think Wallew believes in white supremacy.
 
"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America," Mr. Bush said at a joint press conference. "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way."

I am beginning to think that George Bush is a liar. He has refused to even abide by a fully funded Congressional mandate, that he signed into law, to hire 5000 new Border patrol Agents.

How else can one construe his comment above other than as a baldfaced lie?

Bush is a bootlicking toady to the Mexican oligarchs. Did they fund his Presidential campaign with dope money or something?
 
shootinstudent
Turning back 500,000 people a year is not uncontrolled. Why do you think illegals are crossing through the middle of the desert?
Because they can.

You must ask yourself why a band of citizen observers with telephones can accomplish what the WH pretends to be unable to do? The Mexican army has been bringing thousands of them water and moving them to other areas along the border.

Your position is like a man who has been attacked in his household; someone broke in, murdered one of the kids and burned up the car in the driveway - and left clear messages to return and finish the rest later. Yet, this man leaves his back door unlocked all the time, and pays little attention to a steady traffic of unknowns prowling about his property. It is irrational, and were someone to relate such a "predicament" and act in such a manner anyones' conclusion would be that the man either lied about the attack - or he is a nut.

The September 11th hijackers, for example, got here on Visas. Every dollar we spend on border patrol in this respect is a dollar wasted that could've been spent on improving intelligence about all terrorists worldwide
You think "intelligence" is going to thwart every effort to get a few dozen people into this country on foot with the "technical" knowhow of common soldiers to bring several major cities to a standstill using smallarms and some basic explosives?

Your reasoning is suffering from an over-sophistication. It is not necessary for anyone to spend billions of dollars on any hi-tech wonders or make risky underworld manuevers to "aquire a suitcase nuke" to bring this country to an economic standstill and chaotic order.

It's an ambiguous line. If I write "a group of a hundred people", are you going to automatically read that as being one smaller group out of a larger hundred?
Now you are playing dumb. Do you think that even the tiniest fraction of 1.2 billion people is not enough of a threat, were an even smaller fraction of that to cross our border with a plan that could be brainstormed by a group of college kids?

Now that you're clear, let's get back to the point-expenditures on anti-terrorism intelligence are at record highs. The September 11th hijackers, for example, got here on Visas. Every dollar we spend on border patrol in this respect is a dollar wasted that could've been spent on improving intelligence about all terrorists worldwide
"Expenditures"? How much money is being blown per year on the Bush adminstration's socialist programs here and abroad eh? How about the money being blown in Federal aid and benefits to illegal migrants? The money in hospital closures and other losses?

You are really out of the picture. Not only are we being bled from within, but one more big "terrorist event" in this country and life as you know it will be over as it will be for most everyone else in this country.

Let me summarize your argument: The EU had an economic plan and decided on political union, therefore, the United States will do the same? They are two totally different areas. The fact that the Europeans do something means precisely zero in terms of North American political systems. Where's the "political commentary" you're talking about in North America? Show me a credible source that claims the US government is planning on releasing sovereignty to Mexico, Canada, or any other American state.

Mine is not an "arguement". It is an historical fact. The government founders of the European Common Market lied to their respective publics - in every single Common Market country. Would that qualify as a conspeewassy for you? Or did they all "all lie by coincidence"?

Your remaining comments simply show that you in total ignorance of what is taking place in the rest of the geo-political world. There is a very tight political interface between the new Eurostate, the African Union, and APEC etc, which is moving openly in certain directions. You really ought to look at that before you start spouting rubbish about "North American political systems". Canada, for one thing, is a Commonwealth nation and moving rapidly the way of it's socialist motherland. Maybe you ought to research the current political ties between Canada and the Crown. Mexico is a thoroughly corrupt State run by anyone but Mexicans. You obviously need to take a closer look at that one too.

If want some overt signs of political globalization subverting our sovereignty, take as just one example Ruth Bader Ginsberg's recent remarks concerning taking into consideration foreign law and court decisions in our court rulings.
 
shootinstudent
This, too, is something most Americans are fine with. If a cheaper product of acceptable quality comes from somewhere else, that's where it should come from.
Really? So if all computers - all electronics - can be made in China, all telephone operators can be employed more cheaply in China, and all business managers can run businesses cheaper from Bombay "that's where it should come from"?

Why don't we just outsource all manufacturing and services to third world countries - and we can just all be soldiers, Federal and State officials and workers, minimum wage laborers and service workers, and welfare recipients. Would that work?

What exactly can not be made cheaper elsewhere? What information, consulting or other business information services can not be administered cheaper in Bombay, Serowe or Lima?

What is missing now? Where is our shipping industry?

In addition, the US has PLENTY of capital for emergency situations. No one is going to cripple the US. Try name one basic industry that could never be resurrected, and you'll see that.
Plenty of "capital"? What and where? Owned by whom? You need more than fictional capital to resurrect a manufacturing industry. After a sudden economic crash and meltdown - what is likely if not certain to follow another series of major attacks on our soil - there is not going be any enthusiastic investment in industry here. What you are saying is nonsense in the face of what might be just over the horizon for this country.

World development means: development of many countries. That's pretty clear from the two words, "world", and "development." You are playing semantics.
Semantics? How so?

You use the term "world developement" as if it had a life, imperative and authority of it's own. "World developement" is newspeak. It is a term introduced and used by global socialists. There is nothing in our Constitution about money from the public purse being used for "world developement" - or any other public energies or resources being diverted to such use.

And if we follow the policies you're claiming to support (closed border, no manufacturing abroad, etc), we will not develop. The interesting piece of European history you should've studied isn't the EU for this point; look at the Marshall plan and how much the US has benefitted because of it.
Were we "developing" in the 1840s? How about 1910? Was 1958 a particularly rough period for people in this country?

The Marshall plan had many facets to it. How much trade do we do with those European former States now? As the Europeans increasingly trade within their political union, move investment there, and trade in Euros - as is all happening at this time - the dollar is going to find itself a very lonely piece of paper at some point.

You missed the point again. What I am saying is that the US benefits greatly from development and free trade relationships with other nations. Those nations benefit also. It's not a "moral obligation", it's good business sense. If something can be built cheaper in Mexico, and at the same time, something can be made in the US to trade for it, then that is the economically efficient thing to do. Your position takes no account of economic benefit to the US.
For one thing, it is not "free trade". It is very much controlled; those who do not join the club and play by the rules of the club don't get to trade. The IMF and World Bank have been loaning money to corrupt third world governments, who predictably squander it, and bring their countries into a form of economic slavery from which they are unlikely to escape.

Oh yes; there are plenty of "economic benefits"; like to the World bank and it's associated conduits - and the criminals who milk the populations of their national wealth. Of course the oil, gas, mineral and other resource industries make a killing as well.

I think your last comment about "cultural stability" is the most telling. You are not considering whether or not the US profits from its policies; you just want to have your own little American island where people sing the George Washington cherry tree song and pay exhorbitant fees for a bunch of lazy teenagers to build nike shoes. That is a recipe for recession and disaster, not for prosperity
It was the martial aristocratic, cultured and educated people like George Washington that conquered this land, and turned it from a wilderness into what was set to prosper and overtake every other nation on earth.

The lazy teenagers you speak of were most heavily influenced by the same people who share your historical, political and economic views.

This is the key problem here, LAK. Your distrust of mainstream information and politics is based on...what? What's your credible, reliable source for information? And are these "oligarchs" in the media forcing all americans to watch only CNN and FOX?
Might be your age, could be several factors; but for whatever reason you do not recognize the elements of manipulative political propaganda. Let me put it in the context of an example for you, as your presence here and namesake at least imlpies that you have an interest in firearms and shooting them.

Over the last ten years - out of all the CNN stories wherein firearms, the private ownership and use of, proposed legislation was a major component - how many focused on the right to keep and bear arms in it's proper context? How many adequately referred to the legitimate uses and benefits of firearms? How many shed a deserved focus on any obvious falsity? How many were even "well-balanced"?

Then tell me this; out of ABC, NBC, CBC and any major newspaper or wires service - which of them has at any time over the last twenty years contradicted another on a firearms related story?

You see, for whatever reason you fail to have comprehended what has been right in front of your face for at the very least a few years.

It's obvious to me that you believe in the "secret rich folk controlling everything behind the scenes" conspiracy. In fact, I'm willing to bet decent money that you have a suspicion that the Jews are behind this one.
"Secret rich folk"? Who runs CNN and FOX? Are they "secret"? :D

You keep mentioning "Jews". What "Jews" are you talking about?

My position: The reason your position is unpopular and neglected in national politics isn't a secret. No one is buying the "be a sovereign and don't pay taxes!" pamphlet lines anymore. You're acting just like the radical democrats who claim that Bush fixed every single vote in his two presidential elections on this issue.
"Be a sovereign"? You've been reading Zeke again. Or was it something you heard on CNN? The income tax is a constructive fraud. If you love it so much, maybe you could lobby your Congressman to have it upped a couple of percent to what is taken from people in socialist Europe. Comrade Bush's bosom pal Tony Blair might help you with some good arguements and a draft to send in.

George Jr's dad, George Herbert Walker - just like his bosom pal Bill Clinton - lied to the American public before the first invasion of Iraq. He not only lied, he made use of a former Chief of staff and PR firm to engineer the lie and a false testimony before Congress. And like his dad, George Jr has come up with some interesting fictions himself. It would not surprize me at all if more people had actually voted for Kerry; but it makes no difference - and Kerry of course obligingly and discreetly faded from view.

"Radical democrats"? What is a "radical democrat" pray tell? Is that someone who lies? So what would the anithesis of a "radical democrat" be? A "radical republican" - someone who never lies?

Show me evidence that the media/jews/whoever are controlling information and that they force all Americans to believe it, and I'll reverse my judgment.
Like many people, you have a hangup with "jews". You use the term often, but do not seem to have the faintest idea who you are actually referring to.

The control of information? I have already covered that. If you can show me a major rift in reporting between CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS etc, the major newspapers etc on any major topic of private gun ownership, it's Constitutional basis and application and relationship to violent crime in this country - I am all ears.

You evidently have not recognized the patterns and elements of propaganda and control on your lonesome compartmentalized self; so no let's see if you can spot them with an objective starting point to focus on.
 
LAK,
THANK YOU, thank you, thank you.

SIS,
If you wish to twist my words to meet YOUR criteria, that's YOUR problem, not mine. Your racism is showing BIG TIME.

And yes, apparently YOU have a problem with WHITE PEOPLE as you ASSUME all sorts of bad things about white people with out facts in evidence of what you ASSUME.

THERE ARE BETTER THAN 70% WHITE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY. That means that out of the just short of 300 MILLION LEGAL RESIDENTS of this country, MORE than 210 MILLION of them ARE WHITE.

Get over yourself. You have never been introduced to the dark side of the 'minority' problem in this country. You know, the part where the blacks hate the mexicans, the mexicans hate the blacks, both blacks and mexicans hate the orientals, on and on and on. I have and it sucks. As most white people TRY to go out of their to be understanding of why minorities are the smallest portion of this country, yet seem to have a disportionate amount of crime committed UPON THEM BY THEIR PEERS. Yes, there are white people doing the same thing, just not in the high percentages of other minorities, who seem to want to 'take out their rage' upon people who are just like them.

And coming from the third world country that they come from, HAVING NO RESPECT FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE OR PROPERTY is SOP.

AND CORPUS CHRISTI IS SPANISH for 'The Body of Christ'. Don't believe me? Go ask a mexican catholic priest. HE will set you straight. IS IT LATIN ALSO? You betcha. Is LATIN currently being spoken as any countries MAIN LANGUAGE? Nope. Sorry, but once again your facts are skewed. As usual.
 
Get over yourself. You have never been introduced to the dark side of the 'minority' problem in this country. You know, the part where the blacks hate the mexicans, the mexicans hate the blacks, both blacks and mexicans hate the orientals, on and on and on. I have and it sucks.

Uh, how do you know what I've been exposed to? Let me list my places of past residence:

Rural California-lots of mexicans
DC-ha!
Texas-sound familiar?

I disagree that minorities are the cause of social problems. That's all.

LAK,

If you distrust all sources, except for those that comport with your views, this argument is pointless.
 
I disagree that minorities are the cause of social problems. That's all.

All I ever said was that MEXICANS, spurred on by their government AND certain militant RACIST groups are pushing illegal immigrants into the US with the PROMISE that the 'golden mountain' will be theirs. Their political goal is to take BACK 'their portion' of the southwestern part of the USA.

THAT'S why the MMP has been taken up. And as I said earlier, it's a sure sign of SOCIAL DEGRADATION when normal citizens take up the job the government is 'supposed' to accomplish, IE border security. It's actually ONE of the few jobs they ARE tasked with.

Why can we send our people ALL OVER THE WORLD to defend other nations, but can't seem to find enough where with all, money, troops, WHATEVER to protect BOTH of our borders. Too bad it will take yet another attack where thousand or perhaps millions die before we actually break from being POLITCALLY CORRECT and allowing ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION across our borders.

And to make myself PAINFULLY CLEAR, I have zip problem with LEGAL immigrants. THEY ARE the backbone of the future of this country. But I do have a problem with people who start out their lives by breaking laws just to get in.

I've asked this before and no one has EVER answered it.

IF AMERICANS were streaming across the Mexican border, taking jobs that 'Mexicans did not want to do', does ANYONE think that we would be treated as kindly as we treat the illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America???

You know, IF we catch them, give them a good meal and then put them on transportation back to where they came from, so they can try again TOMORROW!

Here's a cartoon I've had for more than TWENTY YEARS...

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Wallew,

Well, I quoted what you said before above. Just for clarification, what did you mean when you said:

Why did the KKK disappear? Because of all the liberal values allowing 'minorities' all the rights of non-minorities. During the sixties, all da hippies thought it was a grand idea.

Expect a similar form of KKK to reappear in the coming years, as illegal aliens demand AND RECIEVE the same rights as US CITIZENS.

Also, that little comic is great....and it proves my point again. You're exactly the guy the Minuteman project (at least in public) does not want associated with its movement. From their public comments, the leadership of the minutemen would not be caught dead with a comic like that in their magazines or on their website.

The reason is that they are smart enough to realize that the vast majority of Americans, whites included, do not believe that illegal immigration is a death penalty offense. They also realize that most Americans have nothing but contempt for the image of biker-types running around shooting people under the auspices of "protecting america." That's what Matthew Hale's followers were claiming to do too.

So, I'm happy to see this has gotten back to the point: The Minutemen, being smart fellows, realize that tying immigration to a "race war" like Wallew did is DEATH in terms of political legitimacy. The reason, as much as LAK would like to believe otherwise, isn't a grand conspiracy. The reason is that Americans don't take border alarmists seriously.

My constructive theory on this so far is: If you can take any group of people, put "jews" in place of that group's name on any particular piece of propaganda, and have the resulting product look like a Nazi pamphlet, then two things will result:

A) Nobody will take you seriously

and

B) Most of it is likely false or at least totally unsubstantiated by hard data.
 
The reason, as much as LAK would like to believe otherwise, isn't a grand conspiracy. The reason is that Americans don't take border alarmists seriously.
Sorry, my friend. Every poll that I have seen, whether it has been on mainstream news or fringe, shows that Americans are in overwhelming support of a secure border. The issue is in fact both serious and alarming.

Americans are slow to rally around any cause...unfortunately we are too busy watching "reality tv" and stuffing our faces with pizza rolls...but that is what makes the MMP and other grassroots groups so amazing. People have turned out. People are starting to pay attention to what is going on. Some of the people I met have never "rallied" around anything in their lives. And yet they paid the enormous gas prices and showed up.

Like myself, some of them were Bush supporters. We wanted nothing more than for the president to explain to us his open-door policy. To show us why it is NOT a national security issue. To show us why what is good for the Mexican government, a handful of American business OWNERS, and the likes of MS-13...and undeniably bad for the average American worker, the Mexican migrant worker (yeah, that's right) and our entire social/welfare system...is somehow what this country needs.

He has failed. I suppose it is good in a way, for someone like myself. It has caused me to reconsider some of my previously held assumptions, about more than just the border.

I was watching Lou Dobbs a couple of months ago and he was discussing the border. At one point, he hesitated, and in an attempt to discuss President Bush's position, he said "baffling". This sums it up for me. It is interesting that Lou has taken up the border cause. Also, many media and collumnists who up to this point, liberals have claimed as Bush-suck-ups. O'Reily, Hannity of Hannity &Colmes, Michele Malkin, Ann Coulter, Dennis Miller...all who has supported Bush on just about every other issue....are vocalizing concern about the total lack of border security.
While, I do not put too much stock in any media, whether they support my view or not...it is an interesting development and is yet one more example that this issue is very real and not relegated to Democrat verses Republican or conservative verses liberal.
This issue is not going away. Not until Bush takes his head out of Fox's ass and reconsiders his own country's best interests. The fact that we have to ask him to do so...
unforgivable.
 
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SIS,
A couple of things.

First that CARTOON is OVER TWENTY FIVE YEARS OLD and was drawn by a MEXICAN. Notice that ALL THE BIKERS AND ALL THE MEXICANS RUNNING AWAY all have the same facial features?

Have you EVER heard of the Bandido's? How about the AMIGO'S? Both are Latino based biker gangs. You want to go mess with THEM, be my guest. I learned more than thirty five years ago HOW to blend into any crowd, including your racist stereo image of BIKERS.

They also realize that most Americans have nothing but contempt for the image of biker-types running around shooting people under the auspices of "protecting america."

You REALLY need to get a grip on reality. THAT WAS THIRTY FIVE (forty?) YEARS AGO. These days, most motorcyclists, ESPECIALLY THOSE RIDING HD's are more likely to be a lawyer, a doctor or the local pastor than the member of some "'biker-type' running around shooting people" gang. You are SO FAR DISCONNECTED with reality, YOU are more scary than anything ANYONE ELSE HAS said here.

Again it was a CARTOON. Apparently you read conspiracy into the funny papers. Sad, really, if you think about it.

And you are STILL IN DENIAL about what the Mexicans are trying to do. IE TAKE BACK A HUGE PORTION OF THE USA that they believe still belongs to them. And if they can't get it legally, they will simply flood the land with illegal aliens until all the 'normal' folks have been run off. It's already happened on the border between Texas and Mexico. It's already happened on the border between New Mexico and Mexico. It's already happened on the border between Arizona and Mexico. Ad nauseum.

Too bad you are such a politcally correct racist that you choose to side with FOREIGN NATIONALS breaking our laws on a daily basis over your own countrymen trying to defend our way of life. And then you wear your politcal correctness like a shining badge that you are so proud of. And that SIR, is REALLY SCARY.

And don't you worry about me none. I get along just fine with EVERYONE, except lawbreakers, of course. You know, CRIMINALS who have NO RESPECT for other peoples property or way of life.
 
I was watching Lou Dobbs a couple of months ago and he was discussing the border. At one point, he hesitated, and in an attempt to discuss President Bush's position, he said "baffling".

I seriously wonder whether large amounts of Mexican drug money didn't go to fund Bush's campaigns over the years. There's no other logical explaination for his lack of attention to border security.
 
C H Luke,
you are not the only one wondering about such things. When a position is entirely illogical, one can not help but start to widen one's perception of possible motives.
That is why I get so bent out of shape when the issue gets merged with "race". It is so much larger than that. I am increasingly convinced that it is much larger than political pandering to the hispanic community (which of course is itself racist), that it has very little to do with the preceived necessity of a foriegn migrant worker class.
I'll admit...I was always an X-files fan, but fiction is fiction, and in reality, I have always been sceptical of "conspiracy" theories. Yet I am now convinced there are pieces to the puzzle that are being withheld from us. To think that an American president would be acting in a way that is so detrimental to the stability of the country in what I believe to be such a blatant way...is at best "baffling". At worst? I suppose only time will tell.
 
shootinstudent
LAK, If you distrust all sources, except for those that comport with your views, this argument is pointless.
You try and ridicule the idea of a controlled media - yet it is right in your face. The arguement is pointless if you wander and drift from one silly popular notion to another about any one particular aspect of this issue.

You haven't explained the fact that CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc and all major newspapers have never had a major rift in "reporting" or editorial and columnist stories on events and issues of private firearms ownership and second amendment issues - and their relationship with crime.

Now why is that? Is that an accident or is that a coincidence? Or is it an orchestration? Which is it?

The reason, as much as LAK would like to believe otherwise, isn't a grand conspiracy. The reason is that Americans don't take border alarmists seriously
You are way off track. On averge the people of this country do take it seriously - it is the key people in government, supported by the mainstream media who do not.

Is that another coincidence - or is it accident? ;)

It isn't a conspeewassy, it's open - in your face - stupid.
 
LAK, Charley, cool hand,

Since you are all turning to the "conspiracy" theory of immigration policy, there's nothing I can say to refute it. You can't discuss secret motivations that aren't available to the public. What you are all doing is exactly what the Kerry-mongers did after the election: alleging voter fixing, mass media indoctrination, and cult-leadership because "no rational person could agree with the Republicans!".

The fact that candidates whose main focus is closing the border consistently go down in flames on the national scene should be enough to make it clear to you that most Americans simply do not agree with your positions.

This is not an argument about whether or not illegal immigration is GOOD. Your problem here is that you're making the leap from "illegal immigration is bad" to "no expense should be spared to stop it." Shoplifting is bad too, but that doesn't mean we're going to pay to have 10 policemen for every store to inspect every single person's entire body in order to prevent it. The debate here is about costs versus returns, and that's where you are losing this debate in national politics. Most people agree that illegal immigration is bad; most people do not, however, support spending billions to build a wall, nor they support machine gunning women and children to stop it.

Wallew,

Please show me where I said: A)All bikers are white and B)All bikers are racists and C)All racists are white.

You are assuming I'm attacking whites because you're so hung up on race yourself. I have done no such thing. What I said was, very clearly, that the majority of whites do not support racism. They won't vote for a candidate who says "Whites are better and minorities are ruining things!" just like they won't vote for Louis Farrakhan. You need to reread my posts.

LAK, just for you,

Explain to me why all border-alarmists die in national elections. Is every single vote rigged? You're saying most people agree that the problem is as urgent and deserves as many resources as you do, correct? If that's the case, then explain why not a single such candidate has survived a presidential election.

What should be "in your face, stupid", is that your political issue here is a loser.
 
Shoplifting is bad too, but that doesn't mean we're going to pay to have 10 policemen for every store to inspect every single person's entire body in order to prevent it. The debate here is about costs versus returns, and that's where you are losing this debate in national politics.
Well, SIS, you kind of hit the nail on the head. While summing up our position as a willingness to machine gun women and children (based on a cartoon)...you have summed up your own position by equating the security of the border with mere shoplifting. What most Americans support, despite our cartoons, is somewhere in the middle.
While accusing your opposition as "alarmists", you have in effect drawn your own playing field. Either we admit to advocating the killing of hapless women and children or we accept that the issue of border security is on par with shoplifting...and thus demands only a slap on the wrist.
The mass invasion of migrant workers, drug runners, gangsters and possible terrorists can be stopped without machine gunning down women and children. But NOT if we continue to equate the mass invasion of thousands across the border every single day...with mere shoplifting. While attempting to portray us as "alarmists" and extremists, you have by your analogy shown yourself to be an extremist, for by equating the issue with shoplifting, you have in effect said that it not an issue at all.
If, for a minute, I thought National Security and the economic development of the country were on par with shoplifting, I would probably share your lackadaisical attitude. I do not.
As far the the history of border "politics", we could discuss that all day. Rather than discuss past events, you may want to consider the present atmosphere, politically. Border politics are increasingly important, especially in states near the border or affected by mass immigration. Look at Tom Tancredo's rise, based almost solely on his fight against open-door policies. Look at Arizona's Proposition 200 recently passed by a majority of citizens, including Mexican-Americans, by the way.
 
Charley,

I did not call the minutemen a bunch of shoot-first types. Please read my posts to wallew. I hope I will not have to repeat this many more times, because I've said four times now (IIRC) that I think the minutemen DO NOT want violence to happen.

Also, I did not equate shoplifting with immigration. The example was put to show that sometimes things that are bad aren't worth spending all our time to stop. So the debate, properly framed, is "how much trouble is illegal immigration, and what is the optimum level of spending for prevention?"

My point was that most people do not agree with Wallew and LAK, or with any of the "build a wall!" theorists, or even the minutemen, on HOW to solve the problem or how much money should be spent on it. So, like I said earlier, what needs to happen first is an open debate on the costs of illegal immigration versus the benefits compared to the costs of prevention.
That so far is not what's happening here. What you are doing is accusing me of advocating open borders, or calling everybody racists, and of being ignorant of the facts. Again, if you still have concerns, I will remind you to reread my posts.

This is not an open and shut issue, and pretending that it is only reduces you to making "bush has secret ties to drug dealers" claims, which run right alongside the Dem's pretend voter fraud and 9-11 theories. Instead, if you want to advance your cause, you ought to look at what the arguments are for those who disagree and consider them sincerely. Then you can at least try to convince people of your POV. Telling the opposition that they are brain-washed and that the media is secretly run by people who hate them is a time-tested recipe for failure in America.
 
if you want to advance your cause, you ought to look at what the arguments are for those who disagree and consider them sincerely.
Exactly, SIS. Instead of, say, focusing primarily on how an argument is posed and what cartoons are used, in order to establish that the opposition is racist. You say that you realize (at least part of) the "border alarmists" are not racist, and yet the issue of race seems to always come up in your posts.

Also, I did not equate shoplifting with immigration. The example was put to show that sometimes things that are bad aren't worth spending all our time to stop.
Well, immigration is legal and a respected tradition here, taken on by millions of people each year, so I wouldn't compare it to shoplifting either. :)
Illegal immigration, on the other hand...maybe we just need another example because it sure sounded like you were implying that the crime of crossing our country's border illegally (for jobs, drugs, gang-related or terrorist activities) is on par with shoplifting. I am glad to hear that you do not see them as equal. You scared me there for a sec.

So the debate, properly framed, is "how much trouble is illegal immigration, and what is the optimum level of spending for prevention?
The answer is: Illegal immigration is a MAJOR problem, whose financial cost to the country, both in terms of national security and social programs, far outweigh the financial benefits to a select group of Americans.

It requires, in my opinion, and I believe a growing majority of American's opinion, a solution that will undoubtably be expensive, but in the long run will save $$$ and quite possibly American lives. Admitting that it will be expensive, I will add that if handled correctly, it does not have to be as outrageously expensive as you have implied. There are many ideas, from relocating certain already existing military training camps to the area, to reforming the border control, to positioning National Guard, to a whole array of structural and technological aids. Regardless of what good or bad the MMP does from this point on, they have proven that at the very least, an entire sector can be virtually shut down to "incoming traffic". Within days. Due to a few hundred cilivians standing around with binoculars and sunscreen. Sure, the illegals will simply move down to New Mexico or come back next month, but the point is still made: the border can in fact be controlled. In Arizona, Texas, CA, NM...the whole thing could be a non-issue if the right measures were taken.
Once this is done, a guest-worker program could be established for those migrant workers that you insist we need so badly. I am not so sure that this is the case, but would not resist the program as long as there is a screening process, and a method of tracking the workers. And no amnesty for criminals. You apply for the program in the country of origin.
There. You have your migrant worker force. We have our security. It is not as complicated and difficult as some would make it out to be.
 
Charley,

Please go through my posts and count how many times I have said that I do not believe the minutemen, or all Americans who want to close the border, are all racists. Since you quoted right underneath the part where I said that, I have to believe that you either did not carefully read my post, or that you are deliberately misconstruing it to try and make your point more credible.


What I said, and will say again now, is that the minutemen do not, IMO, want racists running around to ruin their movement. This is because most Americans are not racists and won't support racists. I have made this painfully clear repeatedly.

Now, here's my counter plan to yours:

How about we take the Bush guest worker program and implement that first, and then impose heavy penalties on anyone who hires illegal immigrants after the plan goes into effect. Once there are enough workers to fill the labor need, and there is a strong disincentive to hire any additional illegal immigrants, then we can look at how much border traffic has slowed down. This is operating on the theory that, where there are no jobs for them, people will not go.

That way, we can send only as many resources as we need to stop the remaining illegal immigrants who choose to come despite no realistic chance of finding work.

And an additional benefit of using workers who are already here is that we can look at their track records. If someone has been working steadily and taking care of his family, it's worth forgiving the crime of illegal immigration in order to have someone who has a proven record of not stealing, leeching the welfare rolls, or committing violent crimes. If we have to reimport the entire labor force, we'll have no way to separate out all the criminals and we will be examining most of these people in America for the first time. Now THAT will be expensive.
 
How about we take the Bush guest worker program and implement that first, and then impose heavy penalties on anyone who hires illegal immigrants after the plan goes into effect.
Because we've already fallen for that one before. President Reagan did much the same thing with an amnesty program in the 80s. Enough already.

There is no shortage of people in this country to do our country's work. Hear that able bodied welfare dirtballs? Better start your warm-up exercises.There are plenty of people around the globe who wish to come here to be Americans. I have no use for those who come here only to feather their nests back in their third world hovels, and who have absolutely no intention of assimilating and becoming Americans. None.

Oh, and before you start, spare me the crap about how most Mexicans come here to be Americans. I work in construction. I work off and on with the same guys that I've worked with for more than a decade. I can count on one finger the number of hispanic workers that I've known for years that so much as bothered to learn more than rudimentary English.

When I talk with the one guy that bothered to learn English even he admits that it is his dream to retire (back in Mexico) by the time he is 40. He only bothered to learn English because he figured his boss would pay him more, thus increasing the likelyhood of his dream.

Enough with the idiocy of purposely having barbarians among us. Enough with exploiting them for their labor; while exploiting ourselves with the need to pay for people who burden our society in ways too numerous to count. Enough.
 
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