Bush - "I've met my border promise"

rick_reno said:
I hoipe his Presidency isn't judged by this issue, because he has failed the American public at every turn on this one.
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Failed? Perhaps he hasn't done enough in your mind, but I challenge you to find a president in the last 40 years who has done more* to enhance southern border security...

*Done More = Total legislation passed to toughen Southern border security, total number of hired border security guards and Customs & Immigration staff, and assigned National Guard to Southern border.
 
Failed? Perhaps he hasn't done enough in your mind, but I challenge you to find a president in the last 40 years who has done more* to enhance southern border security...
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I don't care what was done or not done by his predecessors - he's had this responsibility for the past 6 years and has done nothing. Let me ask you - has he - in your mind - done enough about the border situation?
 
Failed? Perhaps he hasn't done enough in your mind, but I challenge you to find a president in the last 40 years who has done more* to enhance southern border security...
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The problem became much worse during the last ten years, so why would any president in the 30 years before Clinton's last term and Bush's 1.5 terms do anything to begin with? I've been in Northern Va for the past 10 years (and rural NC several years prior). The largest increase has taken place in the past 5-8 years. I have no hard stats for that, just a gut feeling based on what I see.

Chris
 
The intelligence data was there. Failure to seal the Borders after 9-11 is no ones fault except Bush.

Regardless of the costs or manpower needed, immediately after 9-11, Congress would have handed it to him on a silver platter, if he had only asked. Waiting nearly 5 years after the fact, is a colossal failure on his part.
 
Waiting nearly 5 years after the fact, is a colossal failure on his part.
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+1

and the only reason he is bringing it up now and "doing something about it" (with little more thab smoke and mirrors) is because the people are wising up about it.
 
"With the support of the National Guard, Border Patrol agents have seized over 17,000 pounds of illegal drugs and caught more than 2,500 illegal immigrants since June 15th."
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Let's do some math:

2,187 pounds of drugs at ports of entry plus 3,354 pounds of drugs between ports of entry is 5,541 pounds of narcotics siezed every day.

So, in the 50 days in between June 15th and the August 5th radio announcement, they managed to get barely over what they should be catching in 3 days? Wow.

More math:

62 arrests at ports of entry plus 3,257 apprehensions between ports for illegal entry is 3,319 apprehensions/arrests on a typical day.

That means that in the same 50 days, they've caught almost as many folks as they should in a typical day.

So let's see what the possible conclusions are...

A: The National Guard is one hell of a deterrent. It's so scary to would-be border crosses that only a fraction of the previous number are willing to try entering the country now. With just a small manpower increase of roughly 20 percent (6,000 Guardsmen plus the 18,000 Border Patrol officers and 11,300 Border Patrol Agents), they've more than doubled the deterrent effect along the border!

I personally have a hard time believing that one though, so let's try...

B: Our border security is even less effective than before. The Border Patrol can't do its job nearly as well now that it's got 6,000 new folks with minimal training to look after.

C: Bush has his numbers wrong. They're low... Way low...

D: TheBorder Patrol's statstics page is way too optimistic.

... Which one is it?

Update:
Actually, 3319 apprehensions/arrests times 365 days a year makes for 1,211,435 folks caught each year... Which is most similar to the year 2001 according to this page here... If this table is accurate, then there's been either a major decline in Illegal immigration since Bush went into office, or more likely, the Border Patrol got neglected way too long by the Republicans...

Now, 17,000 in 50 days times 7 (350 days, almost a full year) gives us 119,000 arrests by in a year by Bush's claims... Even if you mathed in the extra 15 days, that's just pathetic...

If anyone can find an official source for year-to-year statistics, I'd be grateful.
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Cheers,
Wolfe... (By the way, Math is my second-to-worst subject... So if I made any mistakes, please let me know. :D)
 
I hoipe his Presidency isn't judged by this issue, because he has failed the American public at every turn on this one.
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Yep. But unfortunately, his being judged on some other issue ain't gonna help him either.

There is virtually no question but that the House & Senate are gonna be handed over to Dems later this year as a result of this bonehead. It's too soon to tell what will happen in '08, POTUS-wise. I seriously doubt Hitlery will win - no chance actually IMO. BUT, certainly a Dem can win. But Shrub has made me feel that maybe this is for the best, all things considered.

Let this factoid sink for a minute - it sums up beautifully how out of touch Bush is; bordering on being a lunatic:

He used his FIRST veto of the will of the people (a bill that passed both houses of Congress), in SIX YEARS, to prevent funding for embryonic stem cell research, from discarded cells prepped for in vitro clinics, but not used, a measure supported by Orin Hatch and Bill Frist!!

Yes, I think he's the worst president since Lyndon Johnson, without a doubt. No one can touch LBJ though, in terms of bad presidents.

To get back on topic - of course we all knew that he was just gonna give lip service to the illegals problem - ridiculous.
 
I am a National Guardsman assigned to Operation Jump Start. I can tell you that every Border Patrol agent I have talked to - and there have been many - has thanked me profusely for coming to help. I agree heartily that we should have been here a long time ago, but we have to deal with the reality of today, not what should have been done five years ago.

My job grants me access to the daily apprehension reports for one sector. The difference in apprehensions is dramatic from the first week the Guard was there to this week. I am forbidden from quoting actual numbers, but last week's apprehensions were reduced to less than half of what they were the first week the Guard was on the border. Apprehensions are the best guide available to the overall number of attempted crossings. Obviously, you can't count people you can't see.

The Border Patrol also tallies efficiency numbers, a ratio based on the number of aliens who are sighted but not apprehended compared to those apprehended. These efficiency ratios are largely unchanged since the Guard arrived, but they were actually pretty good in my assigned sector before.

Interviews with aliens have revealed that many Mexicans are choosing not to cross in areas with a heavy Guard presence. Some are afraid of the Guard soldiers; evidently the Mexican army isn't quite so benevolent as the American military, and there are supposedly rumors in Mexico that the Guard is a bunch of murderers fresh from Iraq. I think the deterrent effect is pretty high, at least if I can judge by the looks on the faces of the aliens when I pass through the detention area in uniform.

The soldiers in the EITs (Early Identification Teams) are simply more eyes and ears for the Border Patrol. They have binocs, night vision, commo, and weapons (for defense only). I don't see how having more eyes on the border can possibly be a bad thing, especially after all the wailing and knashing of teeth on this forum about how we need more people on the border, and the way the Minutemen were so heavily supported here. As far as "minimal training" goes, well, it doesn't take a heck of a lot of extra training to use familiar equipment, spot illegals, and radio the nearest BP agent to pick 'em up or chase 'em back to Mexico. Guardsmen are fully qualified soldiers, many with multiple overseas tours under their belts, not Cub Scouts.

One of the things I track in my job is the number of "National Guard assists" reported by Border Patrol agents when they make an apprehension. Again, I cannot quote numbers, but the "assists" are substantial.
 
*Done More = Total legislation passed to toughen Southern border security, total number of hired border security guards and Customs & Immigration staff, and assigned National Guard to Southern border.
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Spending money and increasing the size of bureaucracy does little to stop problems. If you were really a conservative, and not simply towing the neo-conservative agenda, you would know that.

Compare the number of illegals who have entered the country over the years, and tell me if you really think Bush has done anything to curtail illegal immigration.

We are currently adding about 500,000 illegals a year. During the 90's we were adding about 400,000 a year. I am not going to waste my time providing a bibliography. If you doubt me, I encourage you to use google.
 
as much as I wanted to like, repsect & supoort Bush(I voted for him twice)..he is a grade A liar about the border problem..and a few other matters as well...this comes from a dead-dog serious conseravtive...another failure in the White House(a long string of predecessors before him)...I'm afraid that many of his policies(foreign) that he so happily displays on the camera for all of us to see will turn sour and fall apart in due course...my gut feeling...
Remember Arizona..VOTE Janet OUT!!!!
 
Spending money and increasing the size of bureaucracy does little to stop problems. If you were really a conservative, and not simply towing the neo-conservative agenda, you would know that.
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So, what is the "conservative solution", according to you? If you aren't interested in increasing the number of agents who can detect and arrest illegal aliens as they enter or deter their attempt to enter altogether, what is the alternative? I'm puzzled.

Do you prefer to allow them to enter freely and catch them later, well north of the border, like Detroit or what?
A: The National Guard is one hell of a deterrent. It's so scary to would-be border crosses that only a fraction of the previous number are willing to try entering the country now. With just a small manpower increase of roughly 20 percent (6,000 Guardsmen plus the 18,000 Border Patrol officers and 11,300 Border Patrol Agents), they've more than doubled the deterrent effect along the border!

I personally have a hard time believing that one though, so let's try...
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Nope, 'A' is about right.
 
MikeWrite said:
I am a National Guardsman assigned to Operation Jump Start...My job grants me access to the daily apprehension reports for one sector. The difference in apprehensions is dramatic from the first week the Guard was there to this week. I am forbidden from quoting actual numbers, but last week's apprehensions were reduced to less than half of what they were the first week the Guard was on the border. Apprehensions are the best guide available to the overall number of attempted crossings. Obviously, you can't count people you can't see...One of the things I track in my job is the number of "National Guard assists" reported by Border Patrol agents when they make an apprehension. Again, I cannot quote numbers, but the "assists" are substantial.
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:D :D :D KEWL BEANS MikeWrite. I am glad your presence on the border is having a positive result. Please extend my thanks and support to all you work with.

Hmmm...maybe the mess on the border would make a good setting for a video game... Maybe a Zombie based game... What do you think Camp David? :evil:
 
I think we need to get some IDF folks working on the southern border problem--they know how to control borders. Within two years the entire length will be one big DMZ with razorwire, checkpoints, and barriers. I have absolutely nothing against people wanting to better their lot by coming here, but if you're not doing it legally I've got no use for you, no matter how cheap your labor is, and I blame American companies for perpetuating the problem by turning a blind eye and selling us out.
 
^^

Fundamentally different situations. The combloc's measures were to keep their people from getting out. Hardening our border is to control who comes in (and I'm not primarily concerned about common illegal workers here). You're free to leave the country any time you want (and return), and also free to disagree with stronger infrastructure on the border, but merely building better walls does not a totalitarian regime make. It might also force enough discontented people to stay in Mexico that they finally decide to rise up and fix their country rather than flee to the north.

In any case, speaking of homeland security while thousands of miles of border leak like sieves doesn't add up.
 
mtnbkr said:
The problem became much worse during the last ten years, so why would any president in the 30 years before Clinton's last term and Bush's 1.5 terms do anything to begin with? I've been in Northern Va for the past 10 years (and rural NC several years prior). The largest increase has taken place in the past 5-8 years. I have no hard stats for that, just a gut feeling based on what I see.
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I live in the same area mtnbkr and I know that illegal immigration has been a problem for decades; only now people are focused on it... all of the landscape firms and construction firms in northern Virginia (many right in your area of Manassas and Fairfax) have been using illegal alien labor for 30+ years and are still doing it.

So what about national leadership on this issue? Bush has done more than any other president about the immigration issue but he still has not done enough...So folks blame him! What did Clinton, Reagan, or Carter do about illegal aliens? Nothing at all! So you shouldn't be roasting Bush here...

Want to make a difference and fix the illegal alien issue? Don't patronize firms that use illegal aliens... don't buy homes that are built by illegal aliens...don't buy vegetables that are picked by illegal aliens...

Cut the demand and you'll cut the supply.
 
If anyone believes he has secured the borders....

ask them these questions:

Would you, unarmed, walk along the river bank of the Rio Grande with your small children from say, Laredo to Mirando City and feel safe?

Would you sleep in a ranch house, located within one hundred miles of the Rio Grande border, with no firearms, and feel safe?

Anyone remember Angel Maturino Resendez?

Until each and every person in Congress and the Judicial and Executive Branch performs these two tasks at least once, then I would submit our so-called "Representatives" have done ZERO regarding this issue.
 
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