Bump in the night--Problems with this "drill"?

Gotta disagree here. My goal is to get the intruder out of my house as quickly as possible without a shot being fired. Considering this may be accomplished with just the sound of the shotgun, I'm all about it. Down one round, but even 5 rounds better be plenty in a standard intrusion. If you need any more, like I said, it's not a break in, it's a raid.
The element of suprise will only get you into trouble.
So he's in the house and he thinks nobody's home, so he comes in the room you are in. Do you just shot him right off the bat? If he's unarmed you may find yourself in a courtroom shortly after that.
I'd rather rack the slide, have them hear it, then decide to either leave or not. If they are unarmed, they will most likely go, if they are armed they may stay but I'll be on the phone with the cops. If they try to come in the room I am in, I yell out "I'm armed and the police are on the way"! If they continue to come in and you are forced to shoot, it is clearly self defense. You won't even be charged.
You have to consider the legal consequences of your actions also. If you take someones life, you must be able to say that you were in reasonable fear for your own life.
 
So he's in the house and he thinks nobody's home, so he comes in the room you are in. Do you just shot him right off the bat? If he's unarmed you may find yourself in a courtroom shortly after that.
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In most states you will be fine whether he is armed or not.

I'd rather rack the slide, have them hear it, then decide to either leave or not.
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What if you wake up to find them already in the room with you? What if they decide to let bullets fly in the directon of the noise? You can't assume that: 1. the intruder is not armed 2. they are there only for your property 3. the sound of the shotgun (a less than ideal home defense weapon IMO) will scare them not alert or antagonize them 4. they are afraid of you 5. they are thinking rationally 6. they have any qualms about taking a life 7. . . I could continue, but I think you see my point.

In most states, just entering your house justifies the use of deadly force. Make sure you know your state's laws!!!!

The most important thing is to have a plan with appropriate contingencies (guests, etc.) before the event ever happens. Make sure whoever is in the house knows and understands the plan. The best plan is to lay in wait - preferrably behind at least concealment if not cover - call the police, hope for the best while being fully prepared for the worst.
 
In most states you will be fine whether he is armed or not.
What if you wake up to find them already in the room with you? What if they decide to let bullets fly in the directon of the noise? You can't assume that: 1. the intruder is not armed 2. they are there only for your property 3. the sound of the shotgun (a less than ideal home defense weapon IMO) will scare them not alert or antagonize them 4. they are afraid of you 5. they are thinking rationally 6. they have any qualms about taking a life 7. . . I could continue, but I think you see my point.

In most states, just entering your house justifies the use of deadly force. Make sure you know your state's laws!!!!

The most important thing is to have a plan with appropriate contingencies (guests, etc.) before the event ever happens. Make sure whoever is in the house knows and understands the plan. The best plan is to lay in wait - preferrably behind at least concealment if not cover - call the police, hope for the best while being fully prepared for the worst.
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You are right, but I still would rather have a no-fire incident than even have to think about defending myself in court.
I also do have a plan for this, and cover is a big part of it. I have a big old thick oak dresser placed where it allows me to see down my entire hallway, so anyone coming up the stairs would be in plain view, and I would be able to be concealed from them relatively well. It would take a rifle round to get thru the dresser, and I'm not saying they won't have a rifle but you can't be fully protected from every incident. Every contingency cannot be prepared for, and I know you could list about 50 more than the 6 or 7 you got to. I agree that you should be prepared for the worst.
Such as the intruder already in the room with me. At that point, if they are armed and you aren't sleeping with a holster on, you're dead if that's the way they want you. Period.
If I have the cops on the phone, I want to make sure I'm doing everything by the book, because they will be sure to take a long hard listen at the 911 recording. That was really the point I was trying to make. Shooting first and asking questions later may be within the letter of the law but I'd hate to spend 50k on a lawyer to prove that to a jury. I want my case to be open-and-closed without question.


BTW, (and I know you know what you are talking about so this is a real question and not an arguement), why is a shotgun less than ideal for a home defense weapon in your opinion? What is?
Keep in mind, I have a child and my choice of the shotgun is because #4 shot will kill an intruder while not penetrating enough to endanger the life of the others in my house. In my case, what would you recommend?
 
why is a shotgun less than ideal for a home defense weapon in your opinion?
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Because even with birdshot, you risk overpenetration. At most house ranges, you don't have a spread that is wide enough to live up to the myth that you don't have to aim. If you have to manuever, a long gun is a liability. If you keep it at ready, it preceeds you around corners, if you keep it in close, it is slower to bring into action. They are difficult to manuever in tight spaces like hallways, etc.. If you are proficient, a handgun is still the best weapon for civilians. There may be times when you have to rescue or retrieve your children/guests and escort them to the safe room. Moving through the house with a pistol is much easier and they are quicker to bring to bear. Particularly if you are holding on to you children/guests while moving them to a safe room.


I no longer have children in my home, but every night when I go to bed, my C&L 1911 is in my IWB holster next to my cell phone, flashlight and clock radio. Same place every night. When I watch TV at night, it sits in the same spot on the same end table. If I still had children in my home, it would require a bit more discipline locking the gun up during the day, then taking it out at night.
 
actually, from my experience, hearing a sudden noise in an unfamiliar, dark environment it is slightly difficult to determine where it came from. Of course, if you're in the same room it's not that hard, and the bad guy IS going to know the general direction of where the sound came from. But human instinct in a situation like that is to whip around to face the area the noise came from, and that reaction mixed with the strange echoes you can get off walls tends to overpower the brain getting a pin-point fix on a short-duration noise. With me, it left me fairly disoriented because I had whipped around so quickly I had kind of lost place of where I was, etc. Of course, for me, it wasn't a shotgun or a threatening noise so I calmed down fairly quickly.

Like others have said, if someone hears a shotgun racking and their first thought is, "now I know where he is, I'm going to go get him" then your going to need that shotgun.
 
KC,

I promise that I am sincerely curious and no flame whatsoever is intended.

With that caveat out of the way...do you carry daily? If so, do you carry with a round chambered?

I only ask because the sound a "racked slide" on a semi-auto is similar to the pump of a shotgun. It is plausible, given your argument, that an assailant would also be intimidated by the sound of this action as well? Of course, in this situation, most likely visual contact will have been established between the two parties and the sight of your weapon could also be considered a valid deterrent. In this situation, the "racking of the slide" still sends the message of "Hey peckerhead, I really mean business!"

I understand some of the points you make in your argument, but I just would not feel comfortable trying to intimidate someone that I know nothing about (except they are in my house when they certainly should not be).

It's an interesting argument, and I appreciate your counterpoints.
 
I promise that I am sincerely curious and no flame whatsoever is intended.

With that caveat out of the way...do you carry daily? If so, do you carry with a round chambered?

I only ask because the sound a "racked slide" on a semi-auto is similar to the pump of a shotgun. It is plausible, given your argument, that an assailant would also be intimidated by the sound of this action as well?

I understand some of the points you make in your argument, but I just would not feel comfortable trying to intimidate someone that I know nothing about (except they are in my house when they certainly should not be).

It's an interesting argument, and I appreciate your counterpoints.
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I carry a 1911 cocked and locked for 14-16 hours every day.
If I am in a confrontation throughout the day, it is a totally different situation.
You are talking about a silent house in the dark in the middle of the night, when that sound will be unmistakeable and will carry thru the house easily. While it may give the intruder a clue that someone is indeed at home, I doubt it would be able to identify my location beyond somewhere upstairs, and there have been countless cases where that noise has sent an intruder running. Some may not be discouraged by it, but I have a shotgun pointed at the top of the stairs at that point, which is their only point of entry to the upper floor of my house. They are also entering a hallway at that point with no cover for themselves while I do have cover. I feel pretty good about my odds at this point.
Besides, you will need to call 911, and even whispering in a house in the dead of night will alert the intruder of your presence and position. Since you're gonna be giving away your location anyway, why not give them something to worry about too?
During the day, if I need to take out my weapon, the situation is most likely face-to-face and has gone past the point of "scaring them off". A handgun in broad daylight isn't meant to be intimidating; if I draw, I have every intention to shoot. And just having one drawn in the day is intimidating enough if that's important to you. I don't want to take the extra second to chamber a round, I can draw and fire in under a second and a half, and that's whats important to me in an outside of the house daylight confrontation. I can also do it one handed if need be, which is also a very important factor.
I don't mean this to be insulting, but you are following a false chain of logic here, and comparing an apple to an orange.
These two situations are totally unrelated, I'm not sure I understand why you would want to carry an unloaded gun, and as I said, your position will be given away with the call to 911, so why would that the slide noise be considered a negative?
 
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I don't mean this to be insulting, but you are following a false chain of logic here, and comparing an apple to an orange.
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Certainly not insulting, but I do disagree. The principle issue is using methods of intimidation to deter the use of deadly force. While I agree that it is always a good thing to find alternatives to deadly force, I question the strategic downfalls of giving away your position.

I'll leave it at that however, as I am exhausted and do not have the mental capacity to continue my role in this discussion.
 
Now here is another question. Finger on or off the trigger of the shotgun, handgun, flintlock, crossbow, potato gun....or what ever weapon you choose while clearing and or moving family/loved ones to safety?


Godbless......
 
OFF, my gosh off! You're spooked and jumpy enough already don't blow someones head off just because you're jumpy. After all it could be a parent or loved one come home early. Racking the slide also gives them the chance to start hollerin'.
Oh yeah, safety off too.
Bill
 
Dear LBS,

I used to live in Reading Pa which is about an hour from philly. I now live near Oley which isn't much farther just quieter. That part of PA is pretty bad. I had a couple break-ins and luckily most of them ended quickly and quietly. I have a 120 lbs German Shep. He doesn't bark for the heck of it. So when he does I pay attention. Staying upstairs is the best idea. Make sure there is no threat. If you hear anything out of the ordinary call 911. I know no one wants to bother the LEO's but they won't mind, better safe than sorry. And they'll probably say that. If five ten minutes go by and you hear nothing than I agree go down and just check. Don't let down your guard. Just be calm and check everything over. I think you have a lot of good ideas and what you are doing is fine. Staying upstairs is smart. Its easier to justify DF if your life or a loved ones is easily proved in danger. I'm not going to argue your choice of arms to each they're own. Just be proficient and knowlegable.
 
Now here is another question. Finger on or off the trigger of the shotgun, handgun, flintlock, crossbow, potato gun....or what ever weapon you choose while clearing and or moving family/loved ones to safety?
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What are the four basic safety rules?

The "Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire" rule should always be followed, even in self-defense situations. It is no faster to have your finger on the trigger than off.
 
I liked this thread. Very informative in alot of respects.

My 2 cents

I sense alot of 'let's get 'em' mentality. I can see why that would be given someone has just entered your home with your precious family inside. Nothing triggers the primals faster than that. But let's first remember, WHATEVER the conditions you consider to be justified for shooting......LAW ENFORCEMENT WILL BE INVESTIGATING. It's not going to be see bad guy, shoot bad guy, hung family, roll credits. And they will not soon stop asking many many many questions about why you did what you did, what was BEYOND what you were shooting at, where exactly was everyone in the house when you fired, etc. This will be QUITE thorough and you damn sure better have your ducks in a row.

Plus....you now have a big bloody mess in your home and alot of damage to repair. AND have exposed your family to tramatizing event and permanently changed your children.

The alternative scenario of racking the shotgun, or handgun, and clearing the house with intimidation may lack the 'thrill' of an action packed movie scene or the grunt grunt of 'This is MY house and I have DEFEATED the intruder' but if it works then God be praised, the ACTUAL mission has been acomplished. If it doesn't then you have a VERY VERY dangerous individual in your home and he knows YOU have the drop on THEM. It's 'Lay in wait' till THEY come to you or law enforcement does. An individual willing to go TOWARD the sound of a shotgun being racked is out of the league of anyone without EXTENSIVE training to be going after in CQC scenario. Best to park your ass in spot with good cover and ONE way into and WAIT.

All that said, remember shoot to DEFEND YOUR LIFE and that of your family, NOT because just because you think 'you can so you will'. Prosecuters and CIVIL LAWYERS make a LIVING jailing and suing people.
 
A potatoe gun can be deadly. No trigger tho :)

Never put yer bugger picker on the boom boom thing. Not until you is ready to boom boom. Unless it is cats and you have full auto :)
 
That was my point. During all this thread I never saw anyone say finger off the trigger. Just rack, pull slide or cock hammer, clear the house or room or move family to safety.


Godbless.......
 
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That was my point. During all this thread I never saw anyone say finger off the trigger

Seeing as how it's only the most basic safety rule, there really isn't much need to mention it.
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Well what about manual safeties then, since safety was brought up

In one of my classes, the Gunny actually said his personal preference was finger off trigger and weapon on safe even when clearing a building known to contain hostiles; i.e. the safety comes off just long enough to shoot the tango, then goes back on immediately.

I based my personal defense choices off what I hear from him and my other Marine Officer Instructors. One of the (several) reasons my shotgun isn't my goto gun is that its safety (Mossberg tang-safety) is too tight to be worked quickly and reliably from a firing grip.

Personally, my pistol doesn't have an external safety, and my habit with my AR is to flip off the safety when I get a target, and not before.
 
Once you have determined that there is a threat:
The safety should be off, finger off the trigger. I have yet to find a gun that fires without the trigger being pressed, when I do I will leave the safety on. Until then it is safety off, finger off the trigger.






Nothing is so loud in the bush as the sound of someone flipping the selector lever from safe to fire. Learned that one the hard way.
 
As far as my sidearm, I take the safety off as soon as I draw it from the holster if it is being drawn to stop a threat. By the time I've drawn it, the situation already warrants the possible need of force to protect myself or others. I won't drop my finger into the trigger guard until I decide to shoot as that's the way I've been taught and practice. While it may take a fraction of a second to take the safety off, it takes no more time to pull the trigger from outside the guard area than resting on the trigger. Once again, this is a debatable position and I'm sure others will do just the opposite, but I'm not afraid to take the gun of safe since I know my finger won't be on the trigger until I'm ready to make it go bang.
 
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